Ah, the old perennial Italian sub debate. Perhaps it may be easier to qualify now with a bread variable in the mix. It is my belief that pound for pound there is (or was) very little separating in quality alone the Italian subs at Bari from Grazi's. Built on (almost, if not) the same bread and the baseline Italian meats are the same (both use Volpi genoa, not sure about cap & morta, but I'll be damned if there's a difference). Tip of the hat to Grazi's for freshly slicing meats to order (though the turnover at Bari is so high, so what if they slice a bunch & then run it out in 30 mins? I see them slicing back there constantly). And yes, Bari's unique very hot and oily giardiniera has always tipped my favor towards their product.

I tried an Italian at D'Amatos a few months ago:

Again, a nearly identical product to JPG & Bari. Commercially made giardiniera set this guy back a notch. Interestingly, one of the main deli men from Bari seemed to be heading up the sub making at D'Amatos. I wonder what the story is? I also wonder if they are slicing meats fresh? Wouldn't it be ironic if JPG was sourcing?

As a longtime neighborhood Bari customer, I have to add this: I never order subs there anymore. I do buy a few select groceries there- their fresh sausage in particular. I always go to Grazi's for subs now, mostly because of the welcoming service and always appreciated banter with Jim and his mom. You just don't get that experience at Bari nearly a mile to the northeast. I also like Grazi's upgraded sub options like the Mr. G and Will's.

But should we ask ourselves this- Is D'amatos Italian roll the end all be all bread of choice for an Italian sub? I do like it a lot, but sometimes it can be too crunchy, imo. What about a pleasantly chewier roll? Will wait to hear reports from the "new" Bari...

Jefe wrote:But should we ask ourselves this- Is D'amatos Italian roll the end all be all bread of choice for an Italian sub? I do like it a lot, but sometimes it can be too crunchy, imo. What about a pleasantly chewier roll? Will wait to hear reports from the "new" Bari...

My answer is YES. I think D'Amato's bread is the best thing Bari has going for it. I would love to get Riv meat on D'Amato's bread. I do know what you mean by "too crunchy", though. It sometimes hurts my gums, but by the same token, the sandwiches hold up remarkably well because of the crunchy shell. I used to take Bari subs to the ballpark. By the time I ate them, the inside was a little mushy with pepper and tomato juice mixed with the essence of cold cuts, but the outside was still crunchy. I liked the overall effect even more than eating them fresh.

d4v3 wrote:

Jefe wrote:But should we ask ourselves this- Is D'amatos Italian roll the end all be all bread of choice for an Italian sub? I do like it a lot, but sometimes it can be too crunchy, imo. What about a pleasantly chewier roll? Will wait to hear reports from the "new" Bari...

My answer is YES. I think D'Amato's bread is the best thing Bari has going for it. I would love to get Riv meat on D'Amato's bread. I do know what you mean by "too crunchy", though. It sometimes hurts my gums, but by the same token, the sandwiches hold up remarkably well because of the crunchy shell. I used to take Bari subs to the ballpark. By the time I ate them, the inside was a little mushy with pepper and tomato juice mixed with the essence of cold cuts, but the outside was still crunchy. I liked the overall effect even more than eating them fresh.

I also experienced that soggy crumb crispy crust effect. I loved to take a bari sub on road trips and let it get perfect in the package for a couple hours before eating it. But on the other note of - is D'amatos bread the end all be all roll? Absolutely not. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but I've certainly had better from time to time. It is a consistently great product which we are lucky to have in Chicago, but to call it the "end all" is kinda ridiculous.

I was out running errands this afternoon, and picked up a sandwich at Bari along with cheeses , olive oil and San Marzano tomatoes. Like Dave, I actually prefer the sandwich a few hours after it's made, and for the exact same reasons. I've even taken them to concerts at Ravinia.

So I let it sit in the fridge for a few hours before enjoying a piece. My conclusion is that the new bread is slightly less crusty, and a little gentler on the roof of my mouth. Still a great sandwich.

Speaking of subs and Grand Ave., I still miss Aldo's.

Last time I checked, D'Amato's prices were lower than Bari's, maybe that's a deliberate swipe? They had a 3 ft. sub advertised from 15 bucks! How can you beat that? (One time I bought a long loaf from D'Amatos, then went to Bari and bought all the meat/cheese retail, bought a head of lettuce, tomatoes, red onion, etc. To make a long story short, I used my home slicer to cut the lettuce, onion, tomatoes in professional style, and make a 3 ft. sub with my nephews. It was a super-fun project, but it cost me $26 to do it.)

Regarding the sloppy comment about Bari, I've always wondered, do the employees there go back and forth from the raw meat side to the deli side serving customers (I think they do.)? Isn't that some health code violation?

Alpine on North Ave. in Elmwood Park, uses "Gonnella French rolls", I'm pretty sure.

Johnsoncon wrote: Regarding the sloppy comment about Bari, I've always wondered, do the employees there go back and forth from the raw meat side to the deli side serving customers (I think they do.)? Isn't that some health code violation?

I've never observed any improper food handling at Bari. And the demand is so high for sandwiches, that they always have a "team" of dedicated sandwich makers, with one or two handling the other side.

And going from raw food prep to cold prep is legal, as long as hands are properly washed.

deepdish wrote:Count me in on the J.P. Graziano fan list. Love it. Like I said before, I love Bari, too. If I had to choose between Bari and J.P. Graziano, I'd choose J.P. Graziano by only the slightest of margins. That said, I'd take Alpine probably over everybody, but again only by the slightest of margins. Alpine's oil and vinegar mix, for whatever reason, is just better than everybody else's. I'm not sure why, for my tastebuds are not sophisticated enough to explain my reasoning.

Perhaps it's a nostalgia thing for me, but I don't think so. I flippin LOVE Alpine's oil. Always have, always will. That stuff is garlic laced, liquid gold. They've gotten more and more skimpy with it over the years. My usual request is to "drench it." And when they put the first layer on, I usually have to re-iterate "please, put more on, I'll pay for extra if I need to." Back in the day, it would come drenched without asking. I also really like their deft hand with the fillings. Some might call it skimpyness, but I think their ratios are great. Paper thin sliced meat and cheeses, and they just don't stuff their sandwiches. I had my first Al and Joe's Italian a few years ago, and I just didn't like it - too much stuff on it, cut too thick. Most ppl, I think, would disagree with me. I do really like the Bari product as well, but Alpine is my number one choice of those three, by a pretty good margin.

Alpine, by the way, uses Hellman's mayo, so, I might be subconsciously biased. (see what I did there? tee-hee)
So, I can go there and get a real turkey or real rb (nice and bloody!) sammich with mayo, and I don't have to worry about getting any form of garbage. Tater salad has Hellman's goodness as well, and I love their version. I'm a big, big fan of Alpine.

Evil Ronnie wrote:

Johnsoncon wrote: Regarding the sloppy comment about Bari, I've always wondered, do the employees there go back and forth from the raw meat side to the deli side serving customers (I think they do.)? Isn't that some health code violation?

I've never observed any improper food handling at Bari. And the demand is so high for sandwiches, that they always have a "team" of dedicated sandwich makers, with one or two handling the other side.

And going from raw food prep to cold prep is legal, as long as hands are properly washed.

If you do a deli order, get 1/2 lb. of various cold cuts on the slicer, and then ask for 1 lb. of mild sausage...does the employee rely on a raw meat side person to get it? Or does the same guy just go get it and then help the next in line? Pls don't say, unless you know Ron. When they're busy, they aren't washing their hands in between customers. I'm not sure myself despite being in there getting cold cuts and sausage for years!

Johnsoncon,

Johnsoncon said: "I'm not sure myself despite being in there getting cold cuts and sausage for years!"

Johnsoncon also said: I've always wondered, do the employees there go back and forth from the raw meat side to the deli side serving customers (I think they do.)? Isn't that some health code violation?

Going from cold sandwich side to finish order with raw is ok...no cross contamination of cold with raw product/hands. So technically, it is ok to slice cold cuts and make sandwiches and finish the order by weighing out and wrapping sausage.

If it was ever done in reverse order...weighing out raw sausage/meats before going straight into sandwich/cold prep without washing hands ...that would be a problem!

I've never witnessed the reverse order happening. I've been a steady patron of Bari for more than ten years and never witnessed any sloppy food handling. Not saying that they're angels, but believe me when I tell you my radar is always on (after spending so many years working in kitchens).

Alpine is definitely the "lightest" of the above mentioned Italian sub legends, but in my very humble opinion, Alpine is the tastiest, and thereby the best. It all comes down to Alpine's oil and vinegar mix- it's just better than everybody elses. And I've always liked the very thinly sliced meats at Alpine. The ham Alpine uses on "The Alpine" is simply excellent by any standard. But as good as Alpine's ham is, each meat is sliced thinly enough that no one particular meat dominates the sub. For this reason, their subs do not overwhelm your stomach, and the flavoring of their oil/vinegar mix really is allowed to shine through. Similarly, when it comes to their giardiniera, I always get it on the side, so I can add as much I want to meet my own needs. Truly delicious.

Evil Ronnie wrote:If it was ever done in reverse order...weighing out raw sausage/meats before going straight into sandwich/cold prep without washing hands ...that would be a problem!

I've never witnessed the reverse order happening.

How do you know what the guy was doing or handling 5 minutes before you walked in? you don't. I'm going to go test it next week. Ask for sausage first and then some provolone/salami slices next. I'll provide an update.

Johnsoncon wrote:

Evil Ronnie wrote:If it was ever done in reverse order...weighing out raw sausage/meats before going straight into sandwich/cold prep without washing hands ...that would be a problem!

I've never witnessed the reverse order happening.

How do you know what the guy was doing or handling 5 minutes before you walked in? you don't. I'm going to go test it next week. Ask for sausage first and then some provolone/salami slices next. I'll provide an update.

So now LTH is the sanitation police? This whole line of speculation without any evidence whatsoever strikes me as a violation of forum rules.

If anyone cares to dig the answer is probably here.
http://amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Illinois/chicago_il/municipalcodeofchicago?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:chicago_il

d4v3 wrote:

Johnsoncon wrote:

Evil Ronnie wrote:If it was ever done in reverse order...weighing out raw sausage/meats before going straight into sandwich/cold prep without washing hands ...that would be a problem!

I've never witnessed the reverse order happening.

How do you know what the guy was doing or handling 5 minutes before you walked in? you don't. I'm going to go test it next week. Ask for sausage first and then some provolone/salami slices next. I'll provide an update.

So now LTH is the sanitation police? This whole line of speculation without any evidence whatsoever strikes me as a violation of forum rules.

We moderators couldn't agree more. LTH is not the place for this. In fact, our Posting Guidelines specify as much:

Some types of posts have legal implications for you and the site. Please refrain from accusations of criminal activity, health code violations, or other wrongdoing. If your complaint is serious and provable, please take it to the proper authorities. Further, we find reports of restaurant and purveyor violations or closures, regardless of the circumstances, to be an area ripe for competitor abuse. We will remove these posts unless substantiated with a published source, e.g. a link to a quality published account.

So, if you feel a place is in violation of health codes, please contact them directly or contact the appropriate health department.

Thanks,

=R=
for the moderators

midas wrote:Speaking of subs and Grand Ave., I still miss Aldo's.

Same Here, Ive been searching for a replacement to this day. I cant seem to find the Oil/Vinegar mixture on Italian subs even close to Aldo's.

Mccarlin wrote:

midas wrote:Speaking of subs and Grand Ave., I still miss Aldo's.

Same Here, Ive been searching for a replacement to this day. I cant seem to find the Oil/Vinegar mixture on Italian subs even close to Aldo's.

Ah, the Oil/Vinegar mixture. I always ate mine fairly soon after ordering, but one night I was leaving work and going to a poker game. So I stopped at Aldo's, ordered my sub, ad asked them to put a little more oil and vinegar because I didn't want it to dry out until I finally got a chance to eat it. What a mistake. It leaked all the way through the paper wrapping and the paper bag. It made a stain on the front seat of my car that lasted for 4 years. That stuff did not come out! Car smelled like I delivered pizza for a living.

I loved it

Adding another contender to the mix - Soluri & Sons, newly opened after shuttering the original location 20 years ago. (Story here: http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20130320 ... on-halsted)

Like Suzy and Rene, I've been waiting for this place to open, so I was pretty pleased to see it in action today. They use D'Amato's bread AND sell D'Amato's pizza, so I was particularly optimistic. Very small store, a few counter seats, no tables, deli-case with their apparently famous house-made sausages (a number of people came in for the Italian while I was waiting and discussed prep methods with the owner) deli meats/cheese and some attractive salads and sides (marinated artichokes, mushrooms, etc.). They have a very small sandwich menu printed on the wall:



The owner was hanging out and I was torn between an Italian and the prosciutto, so I asked him and he said they were both great, but he particularly liked the prosciutto. He likes it so well, in fact, that he ordered one for himself after I ordered. He also offered to watch my car so I didn't get a ticket, friendly fellow. They offer mild or hot giardiniera (jars for sale at the counter), which is also made in house, I opted for hot. Sorry for the terrible cell phone pic, but this is one heckuva sandwich, the giardiniera, IMO, as good if not better, than Bari's.



The house dressing is a very light vinaigrette, doesn't interfere with the sandwich or make it greasy at all. I put one half away as soon as I got home, I have the other half in the fridge to check out later, but if this first sandwich is any kind of an indicator, we have a really terrific new sandwich shop here in Bridgeport. I'll be curious to hear what others think.

Soluri and Sons Italian Deli
3549 S. Halsted
Chicago, IL

773.247.8777

http://www.soluriandsons.com

Made my first visit to Vinnie's today. Had the tuna sub recommended upthread and elsewhere.
Nicely crusty bread that I think was Damato's.
If you like your tuna salad on the moister side with lots of celery, you'll like this.
I thought the sub was solid, but it got me wondering if the difference between an average and great tuna sub is much narrower than the difference between an average and great Italian sub.
Anyway, it was a good value at five bucks for a 9-inch sub (and a healthful lunch); I just don't think it's worth a special trip.

It seems I can never manage to eat west of 7500 North Avenue. Finally after many years, I crossed the Johnnie's barrier for a sub at Alpine Food Shop. There is much to praise about their namesake sandwich, The Alpine: good meats, excellent tangy provolone and a drizzle of seasoned oil. Most importantly, the sandwich is assembled with a sense of proportion and restraint.



So it’s a tragedy they sabotage it all by using substandard Gonnella bread. Unfortunately this loaf—cottony innards surrounded by a leathery crust—seems to be Chicago's standard bread for subs (it works pretty well for wet Italian beef though). If The Alpine were made on, say, D'Amato’s, it would be at the top of my list.

Alpine Food Shop
7538 W North Av
Elmwood Park IL
708-453-3505
http://www.alpinefoodshop.com/

Rene G wrote: The Alpine: good meats, excellent tangy provolone and a drizzle of seasoned oil. Most importantly, the sandwich is assembled with a sense of proportion and restraint./

I also like the provolone used by Alpine. The tangy flavor of the Provolone combined with the oil is something special. I guess my ideal sandwich would be meat from the Riv, bread and giardenara from Bari and provolone and oil from Alpine.

Rene G wrote:It seems I can never manage to eat west of 7500 North Avenue. Finally after many years, I crossed the Johnnie's barrier for a sub at Alpine Food Shop. There is much to praise about their namesake sandwich, The Alpine: good meats, excellent tangy provolone and a drizzle of seasoned oil. Most importantly, the sandwich is assembled with a sense of proportion and restraint.



So it’s a tragedy they sabotage it all by using substandard Gonnella bread. Unfortunately this loaf—cottony innards surrounded by a leathery crust—seems to be Chicago's standard bread for subs (it works pretty well for wet Italian beef though). If The Alpine were made on, say, D'Amato’s, it would be at the top of my list.

Alpine Food Shop
7538 W North Av
Elmwood Park IL
708-453-3505
http://www.alpinefoodshop.com/

To each his own I guess. I really like the bread at Alpine. I enjoy the contrast of soft interior and chewy crust.
Alpine will remain my go-to in the Oak Park area along with occasional trips to Da Riv and excursions to the re-opened Joseph's for the mind-blowing focaccia sandwich.

@Rene G: This is just my very humble 2 cents. The Mr. G at J.P. Graziano's is one of my 3 favorite Italian subs anywhere, along with The Alpine from Alpine in Elmwood Park, and the Original Italian Sub from Al and Joe's in Franklin Park. The Alpine is STILL my all time favorite sub, with Al and Joe's and the Mr. G from Graziano's close behind. I love all 3 subs for their various virtues, but not because of the bread. The "insides" (the meats, cheeses, hot giardiniera, and homemade vinegar and oil recipes) of these subs are what make all 3 sandwiches truly great. The crusty D'Amato's bread used by J.P. Graziano's on the Mr. G is great texturally because of the extra crunch, but it doesn't add anything to the actual taste of the sub. What makes the Mr. G truly great are its' insides: the sharp imported provolone, the truffle mustard balsamic vinaigrette, the hot oil, the marinated roman style artichoke, and the fresh basil.

Similarly, if both Alpine and Al and Joe's were to switch to the crunchier D'Amato's bread, the crunchiness of the bread would be fun, but it would not add anything to the actual taste of either sub. Al and Joe's sells their homemade vinegar and oil mix by the bottle, and for whatever reason, it flat out tastes better than everybody else's. Combine that with their meats, giardiniera, and sharp imported provolone, and you have a legendary sandwich from a very old school Italian grocery store that everybody in these parts has been eating since 1960.

Same goes for my personal favorite- The Alpine, from Alpine. Alpine's use of ham, along with their homemade vinegar and oil mix, hot giardiniera, and sharp imported provolone are what make this sandwich one of the best in our area since 1955. Not the bread. D'Amato's crunchy bread would not add anything to the actual taste of this sandwich, either. It would make it texturally interesting because of the extra crunch, but that's it.

As someone who grew up in the area around Elmwood Park and Franklin Park, these places are institutions in the Italian community. And both places have entire legions of fans that have been eating their sandwiches for entire generations. The softer Gonella breads really never crosses anybody's minds at either place because the "insides" of both subs are what made them both famous in these parts.

By the way, your food pictures are awesome. I wish I had your photo taking abilities. We should all have another LTHforum Italian sub-a-thon next summer when it gets warm. Everybody will eat very well, that's for sure.

Good Eating As Always,

deepdish

I, of sound mind and body - (well, relatively sound at least,) FRIGGIN LOVE what everyone calls "squishy" Turano and Gonnella french, or italian or whatever all the joints use. I love the chew. And, be thankful for what you've got. Drive a few hours in any direction, and all bread is just plain old Wonder bread.