Feeding a British visitor

Here's the scenario:

A group of eight or 10 is meeting a U.K. visitor who has only one dinner in Chicago, on a Monday.

We want to give her a real Chicago experience, something she won't get in the six or eight other cities she's visiting, including Boston, New York, Toronto, Washington and L.A.

We're also looking for a conversation-friendly spot that won't mind if we linger a bit. Price should be mid-level to moderate.

She's staying in Rogers Park but will be spending the day doing touristy stuff downtown, so anywhere east-ish between the Museum Campus and Evanston is fair game.

She doesn't eat dairy, so pizza is out.

I've been wracking my brain but nothing is clicking. The last suggestion from the group was the Billy Goat, so matters are somewhat desperate. (Not that I'm dissing the Goat, mind you, but it's not exactly a place to wow an international guest on her one night in town.)

Call me crazy, but I'm thinking the Adobo Grill on Division would wrap a lot of Chicago into on meal for a UK visitor. Mexican food remains a non-entity in the UK, Adobo is good enough, and the neighborhood (and getting there) is Chicago. Also, apart from LA, the other cites listed are light on Mexican.

You have thrown in a lot of tough variables, maybe the toughest being "Monday" dinner. So please don't shoot me but here are some possible thoughts:

I haven't been to the Park Grill, so I cannot comment on the quality of the food or ambiance, but Millennium Park itself is fantastic and it's a great place to show someone visiting the city.

I agree that Mexican food is hard to come by in the UK, and I'd recommend Frontera due to the "celebrity" chef aspect, but they're closed Monday. Personally, Salpicon is my favorite.

RJ Grunts is certainly an institution of kinds in the city and it's in such a great locale.

In terms of purely different, and in a fun neighborhood, there's Kitsch'n on Roscoe.

Hope this helps,

Brad

Mexican is actually what I thought of, right out of the box, but L.A. is on the intinerary, so what would make Chicago different? Maybe Polish...? I know this is not the weather for heavier foods, but such might appeal to a UK denizen. No restaurant to recommend...but those are my thoughts.

David "Sausage in any climate is good" Hammond

Take her to Lula Cafe. Really, it's a very authentic "Chicago" experience that your guest would likely appreciate -- (1) it's in a "real" Chicago neighborhood, miles and miles away from downtown touristy areas yet easily accessible by Blue Line El or just a few blocks off the Kennedy; (2) the food is just plain good (although I know VI and SteveZ would disagree); (3) they are open and TOTALLY ON THEIR GAME on Monday nights. That last point is important, because Monday is typically the night restaurants go black, but Lula does that on Tuesdays. And, on Mondays, they do offer the Farm Dinner special ($24) (although I know VI would have issues with that, too). So, in some ways, Monday is actually Lula's most "on" night of the week.

You know..if your focus is to give someone a good "chicago" experience then it strikes me that you might want to do something that we do here pretty well. Since Pizza is out -- how about a good Chicago italian with an excellent Vesuvio? It's hard to find Vesuvio anywhere else and there are at least 5 or 6 places that would fit the bill all the way from cost to a lesiurely place to have a good meal. Plus most folks can find something they like at a good italian joint -- maybe heading to Taylor Street might work (although it is out of your original location range). It's a bit touristy but I've always liked Carmine's on Rush for Vesuvio. There's always Gene & Georgetti's for a taste of real old school Chicago.

Carmine's
1043 N. Rush St.
Chicago


Gene & Georgetti
500 N. Franklin St.
Chicago

Something else that's hot in Chicago right now is the small plate phenomenon -- maybe checking out one of those would be worth your time and maybe a great deal of fun -- everyone getting something fun and sharing. I've not been but I've heard good things about X/O Chicago and of course Avec is a wonderful place to go and share.

Avec
615 W. Randolph St.
Chicago

X/O Chicago
3441 N. Halsted St.
Chicago


Anyhow..that's my .02 centavos. Enjoy!

shannon

Addendum to my post above -- all my suggestions are open on Mondays.

S

earthlydesire wrote:It's hard to find Vesuvio anywhere else

In one sense, yes -- it is not easy to find a dish called "Vesuvio" outside Chicago. But, as has been documented very thoroughly elsewhere on this site, there is GREAT CONTROVERSY over the "Chicago" origination of this dish. Bottom line, the dish itself is only called "Vesuvio" in and around Chicago, but is widely available all over the US and Europe, has direct roots in Italy and is NOT a Chicago innovation. Or at least that's one opinion.

Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions. Please keep 'em coming. We have a week or so to decide.

BR, yes, I knew it was a challenge! But thanks so much for the suggestion of Park Grill -- I know Millennium Park is on the visitor's itinerary.

Has anyone been there lately? Are we best off going inside or eating in the more casual outdoor cafe?

JeffB, David, I have sent off a list of "Chicago's best ethnic fare" and am waiting to hear if any pique interest.

One problem is that most of the group is pretty nonfoodie (is there an appropriate antonym? Not "antifoodie," but sort living in a black hole flavorwise, and one is kosher and won't be eating at all), so I have only Chicago pride to draw on. That may make Lula problematical (otherwise a fine idea, JiLS, thanks) and certainly rules out Avec -- not exactly conversation-friendly anyway.

earthlydesire, thanks for suggesting chicken Vesuvio,* which also caused Harry Caray's to flash in my mind.

*And don't mind that mischief-making JiLS. Without any wish at all to rekindle the Vesuvio Wars, I note that in the linked thread, the documentation nearly all comes from the pro-Chicago side. The anti-Chicago argument offers little hard evidence, merely personal anecdotes and assertion. And, while Jim is quite correct that the origins of Vesuvio stirred LTHForum intensely, little controversy about it occurs elsewhere. Regardless, it's a great dish, closely associated with Chicago whether or not it originated here, and a good suggestion.

LAZ wrote:But thanks so much for the suggestion of Park Grill -- I know Millennium Park is on the visitor's itinerary.
Has anyone been there lately? Are we best off going inside or eating in the more casual outdoor cafe?

The outdoor cafe is a completely different creature with a very limited menu. It is really more of a quick (but not fast) food kind of setup featuring salads and fancy tacos and such. You definitely want to eat inside.

I once took some vistors from the UK to Pasteur. The notion of French influenced Vietnamese cuisine intrigued them. It was something they had never experienced before. They really enjoyed it. But, that was several years ago. I have not been there lately. I guess it doesn't scream Chicago, but it is open on Mondays (I think),is close to Rogers Park and is conversation friendly.

LAZ -- Harry Caray's was on the tip of my tongue the other day and I went with G&G instead because of that old world Chicago flavor but Harry Caray's is a great idea. It's in a nice location too -- there's the river for a nice post prandial walk if it's a nice evening.

I will tell you that I've eaten at the Park Grill a couple of times for lunch, maybe about a year or so ago. I was not really blown away by it but in terms of feeding a bunch of non-foodies -- it might just suit you fine. I don't think it conveys much "Chicago-ism" though. I think they had a pretty decent burger and some good French Onion Soup. For a work lunch, it struck me as a bit overpriced but all the accountants I work with loved it. Take that under advisement.

And thanks for the encouraging words about the "Vesuvio Troubles'. Being fairly new to this site, I had not understood what kind of ruckus I was kicking up with my thoughts of delicious roast chicken with wine and herbs. All I know is that my mother, now an expat of Chicago living in South Carolina, often looks eagerly at every new Italian restaurant's menu in hopes of seeing Vesuvio there...and is very sad when it isn't. She thinks it's a pretty Chicago-y thing, like poppy seeds on your hot dog buns. She misses those as well!

Cheers!

shannon

I probably haven't been since last summer, but I really enjoy the Park Grill (the indoor restaurant) and think taking visitors there is a lovely idea. The park itself, of course, is now a must-see, and maybe there will be something going on there -- possible even on a Monday night. The food at the Park Grill I think is very good (I like the mussels especially, and the burgers are always fine) -- not the best of its class by any means, but much better than it needs to be -- the food could be crummy and given the location they'd probably still pack people in. The menu has a wide variety of options which may be good for your party. It's very pleasant inside and we've always had nice service. But if you're interested I would strongly recommend calling soon for reservations -- they fill up fast particularly during the summer. And they do give the entire park and restaurant over to corporate events sometimes.

La Scarola - decent, affordable Italian - gets a little noisy tho.
721 W. Grand Ave.
Chicago

Noon O' Kabab - excellent Persian
4661 N. Kedzie Ave.
773-279-8899

LAZ wrote:and one is kosher and won't be eating at all

Call me crazy, but since that's true, and Rogers Park is part of the destination, what about Northside Jewish fare? It's Chicago, it's uncomplicated, it's comfort food....truthfully, I don't know exactly where I'd send you - I love a lot of local Jewish diners but they don't exactly have impressive atmospheres.

There's Shallots in Skokie, which I heard is kosher, but I haven't eaten there - anybody? (I'm curious myself)

LAZ wrote:One problem is that most of the group is pretty nonfoodie (is there an appropriate antonym? Not "antifoodie," but sort living in a black hole flavorwise, and one is kosher and won't be eating at all)...

Unless I need to get my Jewish credentials revalidated, I'm sure keeping kosher needn't result in not "eating at all." Jews who observe kosher laws can't eat any sort of meat unless the meat is kosher, and they can't have dairy with meat--but they can eat fish anywhere. (Shellfish is verboten, but any kind of fish with scales is OK--there's no koshering process that makes the tuna at one place kosher while the tuna at some other place is not. It's all good.) So any restaurant which has at least one fish dish on the menu will work for the kosher-keeping friend--which obviously is just about every restaurant in town. Any restaurant at which one could put together a vegetarian meal would also be on the table, so to speak. Unless the friend has other reasons for not "eating at all," the kosher thing shouldn't prevent him or her from enjoying just about any place you choose.

riddlemay wrote:

LAZ wrote:One problem is that most of the group is pretty nonfoodie (is there an appropriate antonym? Not "antifoodie," but sort living in a black hole flavorwise, and one is kosher and won't be eating at all)...

Unless I need to get my Jewish credentials revalidated, I'm sure keeping kosher needn't result in not "eating at all." Jews who observe kosher laws can't eat any sort of meat unless the meat is kosher, and they can't have dairy with meat--but they can eat fish anywhere. (Shellfish is verboten, but any kind of fish with scales is OK--there's no koshering process that makes the tuna at one place kosher while the tuna at some other place is not. It's all good.) So any restaurant which has at least one fish dish on the menu will work for the kosher-keeping friend--which obviously is just about every restaurant in town. Any restaurant at which one could put together a vegetarian meal would also be on the table, so to speak. Unless the friend has other reasons for not "eating at all," the kosher thing shouldn't prevent him or her from enjoying just about any place you choose.

Kosher means a lot more than just not eating pork or shellfish and not mixing meat and dairy. If you want to play it straight, you have to keep the kitchen kosher, too. For example, two sets of utensils (one for dairy, one for meat). And, you also have to kosher clean the kitchen, the utensils, etc. Depending on how far you want to take this, it can make it virtually impossible (or at least exceedingly difficult) to run a kosher restaurant. That's why there aren't very many restaurants that are advertised as kosher. Keeping kosher -- in the strictest sense -- is clearly a major pain in the ass. This is one more reason I'm glad to be a Methodist. Fish cooked on a grill that has been used to make cheeseburgers (and worse, using non-kosher killed beef), without a good kosher cleaning in between, would be non-kosher fish, regardless of its pedigree, arrangement of scales, etc. At least, that's the strict letter-of-the-law interpretation. Anyway, I'll wager LAZ's kosher-keeping guest is one of those who takes it very seriously, and realizes that he/she can't eat ANYTHING in a non-kosher restaurant.

I've got friends who take the kosher thing quite seriously, and as long as they can put together a restaurant meal of fish and vegetables, or just vegetables, they're happy as--well, not clams, because that's trafe. Perhaps LAZ's friend has gone on the record as saying "I can't eat anything at all"--very possible, I don't know the friend--but in the event LAZ is only assuming the friend can't eat anywhere, I think it's worth questioning the assumption.

Riddlemay, I'll bet your friends are level-headed and consistent in their interpretation of Kashrut laws. However, "how kosher is kosher enough" is a question that many have answered in different ways. It's very possible that LAZ's friend is a real stickler; only LAZ can answer that, but the fact is, some would say it's impossible to keep kosher in a restaurant with a non-kosher kitchen, including all the little details about kosher cleaning, multiple sets of utensils, etc.

An Example of Where You Can Take the Kosher Thing, If You Want To...

There was a period of time when I worked at a company where there were three guys who kept kosher and a large group of us would all go out to lunch. Once there was a big lunch at Ranalli's pizza on Montrose and a non-Jew in the group asked one of the kosher guys about the kosher laws and how different people follow them in different ways (or not follow them at all in my case.

He explained it like this:

"Well, David won't eat here at all because it's not a kosher kitchen. I'll eat here, but only cheese or veggie pizzas. Adam will eat a pizza that has sausage on it, but he'll pick off the sausage first. Mike will eat anything."

It takes all kinds.

Best,
Michael

eatchicago wrote:There was a period of time when I worked at a company where there were three guys who kept kosher and a large group of us would all go out to lunch. Once there was a big lunch at Ranalli's pizza on Montrose and a non-Jew in the group asked one of the kosher guys about the kosher laws and how different people follow them in different ways (or not follow them at all in my case.

He explained it like this:

"Well, David won't eat here at all because it's not a kosher kitchen. I'll eat here, but only cheese or veggie pizzas. Adam will eat a pizza that has sausage on it, but he'll pick off the sausage first. Mike will eat anything."

It takes all kinds.

Best,
Michael

Very good! Funny about the cheese pizzas, which I think are very obviously non-kosher even for a mildly observant kosher-foods enthusiast. Why? It's the cheese itself, because it's made with rennet -- which is the lining of a calf's stomach -- mixed with milk to make it curdle. Even a literalist would have to say that, unless it's rennetless or uses a rennet substitute, cheese is, of its nature, traif. Damn, that hurts.

eatchicago wrote:"Well, David won't eat here at all because it's not a kosher kitchen. I'll eat here, but only cheese or veggie pizzas. Adam will eat a pizza that has sausage on it, but he'll pick off the sausage first. Mike will eat anything."

It takes all kinds.

Exactly.

The way any individual Jews observe kashruth tends to be highly idiosyncratic and based on complex factors that include what sort of Judaism they practice (Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Renewal, Hasidic, Secular Humanist...), their heritage (Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, Beta Israel...), the teachings and judgments of their rabbi, their level of commitment and other personal inclinations.

Just what is kosher, or kosher enough, is subject to great debate within the Jewish community (Google on "glatt" and "Hebrew National," for a sample). So on one end of the spectrum, you have Jews who worry that transparent, microscopic crustaceans in New York City water render it treif, and at the other, Jews who refuse to drink a milkshake with their cheeseburger.

(BTW, JiLS, cheese is perfectly kosher, even when made with rennet -- if the rennet came from a kosher animal and the cheesemaker is Jewish, at least according to some rabbis.)

The rules of kashruth are extremely complicated and different authorities and individuals interpret them differently. (That's what you get when you have a religion with no central authority and at least 3,000 years of arguing behind it.) Here's one example of how complex things can get, and this thread offers a lighter take.

As for the friend who's helping to entertain the British visitor, he is modern Orthodox, we've been acquainted for more than 20 years, and while I don't know where he stands on glatt or cholov yisroel or the kosherness of raspberries, nor whether he worries about mar'it ayin, I know he won't eat food cooked in a nonkosher kitchen.

However, he, like the rest of us, wants to show our guest a good time in Chicago.

LAZ wrote:(That's what you get when you have a religion with no central authority and at least 3,000 years of arguing behind it.)

We can't even agree how to spell "trafe"!

I think we are getting a bit off the subject....... but I did want to say that Chicago is a city of mutts. We do not have much of a local style, but rather a huge number of choices.

When I have visitors from another country, I focus more on location than food. London is as diverse as Chicago is, and they have as many ethnic choices for food as we do, so not worry about it.

I try for the 95th for lunch, or just a drink. Down LSD to Hyde Park and the UC, perhaps with a stop for a quick walk about. Back up the drive to the pier, and samples of the offerings there. Someone suggested Grunt's and I second that, if only for the location.

You have to keep in mind that many, not all, visitors to Chicago, will not truly enjoy non-British food, no matter what they say, so concentrate on location.

UK, Boston, New York, Toronto, Washington and L.A. + non-foodies involved + Chicago experience. You know, with the exception of NY (which, of course, has many other options), that says steak to me. Keefer's, G&G (risky, but certainly a Chicago experience), would be on my list, with maybe Morton's (the original!) as a backup.

JimInLoganSquare wrote:Take her to Lula Cafe. Really, it's a very authentic "Chicago" experience that your guest would likely appreciate -- (1) it's in a "real" Chicago neighborhood, miles and miles away from downtown touristy areas yet easily accessible by Blue Line El or just a few blocks off the Kennedy; (2) the food is just plain good (although I know VI and SteveZ would disagree); (3) they are open and TOTALLY ON THEIR GAME on Monday nights. That last point is important, because Monday is typically the night restaurants go black, but Lula does that on Tuesdays. And, on Mondays, they do offer the Farm Dinner special ($24) (although I know VI would have issues with that, too). So, in some ways, Monday is actually Lula's most "on" night of the week.

Thanks for reminding me.

Lula's farm dinner can be a good deal, obviously at that price, but on the other hand, Lula's is no Vie. And on Monday nights, Vie has 1/2 price bottles of wine.

What Jim was reminding me is, there is another kind of local speciality. Not ethnic and not avante garde, but the foods that grow in our local farms. I cannot think of a place that shows them off more than Vie in Western Springs. Hey, I thought it was such a good idea, I went last night.

Granted, the Solano Pinot Noir sucked, but the rest fo the food...cream of lettuce soup, that has me scouring the Internet for recipes; bacon two ways, in a hash under fried softshell crab and braised and then firmed up on the wood fire grill (as good as it sounds), with Nicholl's Farm broc and cauliflower; the wood grill also did wonders for a slab or sturgeon in a smoked paprika broth (not the most local of dishes but what they hey); desserts were ice cream made from Oak Grove cream, just outstanding and a chocolate pudding cake with sour cherry ice cream.

Anyways, on the kosher front, it's been a few years, but I always found the Israeli (and kosher) Taboun, very good if expensive.

Mhays wrote:There's Shallots in Skokie, which I heard is kosher, but I haven't eaten there - anybody? (I'm curious myself)

I ate a Shallots at its previous location about 4-5 yrs ago and it was absolutely wonderful. And it is indeed kosher.

So we we did wind up at Harry Caray's, first having a drink at the Signature Lounge.

Too many people have now caught on that for less than it costs to go up to the observatory you can stop into the lounge and get a drink along with the view, but it's still a marvelous view, and we did manage to snag seats on the sunset side of the building. It was a bit hazy, but still a nice lookout, especially as the lights started to come on toward dusk. The ladies room has one of the best views.

If you haven't been there lately, the drinks menu is big on froufrou and a martini will cost you $10.50 plus tip. They also serve appetizers, sandwiches and desserts, which I didn't sample. Parking in the Hancock garage is hideous; we found out too late that they validate at 260 E. Chestnut.

HC's was a bit noisier than I'd hoped but they tucked our group of 10 into a relatively quiet corner. The service was topnotch, better than most places for a group of this size.


Harry Caray's Trader Vic's mai tai

I started with a Trader Vic's mai tai, which remains delicious, much more tart than most. We got a mixed appetizer selection for the table. I'm not a huge fan of fried calamari, but these were among the best I've had, nice and tender with a crisp, nongreasy coating. The crustaceans in colossal shrimp cocktail were quite sizeable. Others really went for the toasted ravioli, but they weren't too exciting to me.

Most people ordered steaks and seemed pretty happy. Himself tried the Tallgrass Beef NY strip -- this is the grass-fed beef from the company founded by Bill Kurtis. I found the flavor of this steak quite impressive. (I was a trifle disappointed, though, that the pre-dinner raw meat show-and-tell featured only the corn-fed cuts.) In terms of tenderness, I'd say it compared to a high-end choice NY strip. I'll have to try another cut to really gauge.


Tallgrass New York strip

Our British visitor -- who said she couldn't imagine eating more than 6 ounces of beef at a sitting -- had the chicken Vesuvio, which she also thought an enormous portion. She liked it a lot. I had this as well, and thought it a good but not great version; I enjoyed the moist and meaty chicken and relatively crisp skin (as Vesuvio goes), and the big, flavorful peas but I think they make a mistake in cooking the garlic to mildness. I've seen the recipe -- it calls for 10 cloves plus garlic powder -- but the prep adds all the garlic too early. To my taste, it could have used more oregano as well.


Chicken Vesuvio

Signature Lounge
312/787-9596
http://www.signatureroom.com
John Hancock Building
875 N. Michigan Ave., 96th Floor
Chicago

Harry Caray's
312/828-0966
http://www.harrycarays.com
33 W. Kinzie St.,
Chicago