T Comp wrote:I find it disheartening that often times, the actual quality of the Que, seems to take a back seat to things like the sides or sauce in determining, at least, the popularity of so many barbecue places.

You, my friend, are preaching to the choir.

Welcome to LTHForum.

Enjoy,
Gary

T Comp wrote: I find it disheartening that often times, the actual quality of the Que, seems to take a back seat to things like the sides or sauce in determining, at least, the popularity of so many barbecue places.

Despite your disclaimer, you seem to be suggesting that Smoque being packed while Honey1 was empty was due to Smoque's sides and sauce. While IMO they are far superior to Honey1 on both those counts, those aren't likely the major reasons for the disparity in diners. First, Smoque is brand new, so you can bet alot of the people there were just trying it for the first time and didn't choose Smoque over Honey1 for any reason related to the food. Also, Smoque has brisket (and damn good brisket), which is a major draw for some. Not to mention that some may even find Smoque's pork better (on "legitimate" BBQ dimensions) than Honey 1. Back to the sauce, a good sauce is important precisely because you don't want it to cover up the flavor of the meat and smoke. Smoque's puts almost all the sauce on the side without request which gets them high marks, but unlike H1, if they were to put all the sauce on the meat, it wouldn't be a BBQ killing error.
And if your going to pay for fries and sides, its nice when they don't suck.

I'm not picking a fight with Honey 1, I think they do some things quite well and love their tips and links. But your comment seemed a backhanded way of saying that those who might prefer Smoque are simpletons who don't know what real BBQ is all about.

griffin wrote:But your comment seemed a backhanded way of saying that those who might prefer Smoque are simpletons who don't know what real BBQ is all about.

Griffin,

I read nothing like that in T Comps statement or I would not have responded such as I did. I, however, agree with T Comp, BBQ is not about sides, sauce, fries etc, that is icing on the cake, if you will, BBQ is about meat.

Frankly it ever so slightly irks the BBQ guy in me to hear people talk at length about sauce and sides and, not once, mention the barbecue itself, ie the meat.*

Smoque serves good, maybe the best in Chicago, North Side style BBQ, they offer a total package, multiple side dishes, three kinds of sauce, all meats, especially after they get in the groove, always at the ready, hell, they even have a BBQ Manifesto.

Honey 1 has so-so slaw, ok french fries, one type of quite nice sauce and drop dead gorgeous spare ribs, tips and links. At Honey 1 it's all about the meat.

I like Barry and Al at Smoque, think they are going to do well and intended to eat there on occasion, in particular if I am in the mood for a brisket sandwich and good fries.

Far as liking Robert Adams Sr, I sure do, in fact I flat out love the guy and consider him, along with Mack Sevier at Uncle John's, James Lemons at Lem's and Barbra Ann at Barbara Ann's the last of a dying breed, the pit masters art being lost to the science of controlled environment smokers such as Ole Hickory and Southern Pride.

Enjoy,
Gary

*In general, not this thread in particular

G Wiv wrote:the pit masters art being lost to the science of controlled environment smokers such as Ole Hickory and Southern Pride.

LTH,

In rereading the above, it seems I am implying Barry at Smoque isn't a BBQ man, that was not my intention. The main reason, at least from what I can see, Smoque is so busy, even after only a few weeks in business, is Barry's BBQ thought process and dedication.

From my BBQ purist viewpoint their equipment has some intrinsic limitations, from a BBQ business standpoint it's the logical choice.

Enjoy,
Gary

LTH,

Having had the pleasure of BBQ at Thelma's in Houston this afternoon I seem in a BBQ mood.

I just ran across this quote from Rob Walsh that seems particularly appropriate to the turn this thread has taken. The entire article is well worth a read.

"There's not much point in complaining about high-tech barbecue. It serves a purpose, and it's here to stay. And no doubt the quality of it will keep on improving. But as the old barbecue joints slowly disappear, each one that remains becomes a bigger treasure."

Enjoy,
Gary

i guess i'll throw a few cents in on this conversation. just so you know beforehand, i'm incredibly biased towards honey1 because of you guys. i've had way too many spot on porky goodness there to get it out of my system. i think i may even have sent a friend to hell because of 'em,a story best saved for later ^_^;

went to smoque on friday night with some friends. i was fairly impressed. i got a half-slab of the st. louies with a pulled pork sandwich. unfotunately no brisket, which is what i really wanted to try. i also saw those "wine drinkers" and remembered mentioning to myself in my mind "huh" in the intonation of seeing something really unexpected. i also couldn't help noting in my head "WOW, his face is an incredible shade of pink!" ^o^

the st. louies were quite tasty, but i was expecting more meat on 'em. now that i think of it, they were missing the "tips". i noticed my friend that also got the st. louies wasn't doing a lot of nauseating crunching like usual. he's an avid cartilage eater and enjoys the honey1 tips on another level because of it. i don't know if it's the "cut" of the st. louies, but they were missing the "tips" portion, which i quite enjoy (aside from the cartilage). also a few of the end pieces were VERY charred, but still edible and not like a piece of briquet at all. again, very tasty, the rub they use adds quite a bit of flavor, but not as meaty as i'm used to or expected (their manifesto mentioned the st. louies being more meaty than the baby backs). for a few insane moments i even speculated they got their pork from the same farmer conglomerate that supplies BW2s with their chicken wings. ^_^ (they refuse to sell 'weck so i refuse to call 'em BW3s) as a quick aside, for the longest time i wondered why all my friends called them BW3s despite the obvious signage. i still kinda feel a little slighted, i really was expecting a bit more of the tasty tasty pork.

pulled pork was good and on the sweetish side, alot of pork on a surprisingly good hefty bun. i was expecting a more vinegary peppery kick because of previous comments, but it was still good none the less. compared to honey1's offering, smoque in this case gives more bang for the buck. and actually, it's a bit better. the nice hefty bun, a godly amount of good pork (in this instance honey1's portion is a little anemic in comparison although still being just as tasty mind you.) which you can top with their surprisingly tasty cole slaw. (i still think the best cole slaw out there is from KFC.) it's one great mix of textures.

sides were good. i really don't feel them to be noteworthy of more explanation. staff was friendly, although i couldn't help smirking at seeing the cute cashier girl being talked up by a quite older gentleman. the place itself was clean and neat.

my friends liked it, although i sensed my cartilage friend to be slightly dissapointed. i liked it, but i felt slightly dissapointed or rather slightly off putted. i ruminated if it was because of my loyalty to honey1? (which was the start of my path of gustorial enlightenment). would this newcomer to the neighborhood endanger my porky stalwart of honey1? it's probably a culmination of this and other factors.

at honey1 u got a great father and son team (actually the whole family) putting out a downhome godly pork, that struggled to get where they are now. they failed and closed up shop once before, now it's going fairly well for them. please excuse wearing my heart on my sleeve. ^_^; their place is still very homey even with the new orange paint, big tv and cool neon.

at smoque u got a partnership between two guys (i have no idea if they're related at all, but they're both friendly). putting out a VERY VERY VERY good pork (could use more meat on the bones!) their place is very neat and trendy. got a cool manifesto that's actually a nice short read.

and you know what, i think i hit on what I find a little off putting at smoque. this came to me while going to their really big and neat washroom with antibacterial foam soap and auto-sensing paper towel dispenser. smoque is very neat. it's almost reminiscent of chipotle. got a nicely worded manifesto about bbq. chipotle has nicely worded musings about cilantro and such on their soda cups. in all reality these two great guys could have planned long and harge to make sure when they opened, they'd be sharp and presentable, but it's just a bit too clean and sharp for MY comfort. the smoque "image" is very marketable. I could easily see smoque become a chain or franchise. i have no idea if they actually plan this for smoque's future but it is not hard for ME to imagine it so.

places like honey1 speak home town chicago to me. smoque, even though they meet and perhaps excel at some things compared to honey1 (i really loved their pulled pork sandwich, and i've been let down quite a few times when i remember but soon thereafter forget honey1 is closed on mondays.), smoque just feels commercial. honey1 feels just like home. because of that smoque got knocked down a few notches in my book. i still will patronize smoque though, they're just around the corner from my friend and i still gotta try out their brisket. have not eaten any beef in years! ^___________^

the st. louies were quite tasty, but i was expecting more meat on 'em. now that i think of it, they were missing the "tips". i noticed my friend that also got the st. louies wasn't doing a lot of nauseating crunching like usual. he's an avid cartilage eater and enjoys the honey1 tips on another level because of it. i don't know if it's the "cut" of the st. louies, but they were missing the "tips" portion, which i quite enjoy (aside from the cartilage).

I'm glad you commented on this issue of the missing tips. I recently ordered half baby backs and half St. Louis style ribs. What we were presented looked like baby back ribs with the only difference one was intact and the other was individually sliced. I expected the St. Louis to be larger principally because of the tips, which were missing.

However, I had also ordered Brisket, which never came and when I read the receipt was not stated. It may well be I never got the half and half ribs, maybe only the baby backs. Now that you mention the missing tips on the St. Louis, I don't know what I received.

Things really got interesting when one of the owners brought the brisket with a tasting portion of the pulled pork. When I ordered dessert, I also wanted to pay for the Brisket and pulled pork. The cashier wasn't quite sure how to process my order because I already received my meat, just wanted to pay for it as well as my dessert, which I did not have yet. I just have an easy way of confusing people without really trying.

Compared to my bad BBQ meal from the night before, which had no hickory taste. I was happily burping hickory for the rest of the evening after visiting Smoque.

Regards,

after reading your post cathy, did some googling about the st. louis style ribs and came across this. turns out it really is just they way the ribs are cut.

www.ribman.com/abtribs.html+st.+louis+r ... =clnk&cd=4

basically...

spares = st. louies + tips
or
st. louis = spares - tips
or
tips = spares - st. louies

i wonder what smoque does with all those unused tips?????? (i do realize they probably don't cut it themselves, but i can dream can't i?)

geez. i'm not that emphatic about ordering the st. louies anymore. where o' where have my tips gone? now i have no idea what they mean when they mention the st. louies are being "meatier". a whole freaking big chunk of the meat is missing! (btw i was mistaken and it was mentioned on their menu, not on the manifesto.) are they referring to a "meatier" texture, or perhaps flavor?

ack... i've really got a hankering for an extra large tips and links right now.

HI,

Thanks for doing the research. I tried the link but the server is down for maintenance at this moment.

It does make one wonder what is the difference between the baby back ribs and the St. Louis - tip, because they sure looked identical both in appearance and taste. If, indeed, my order really was half and half as specified.

Fortunately, I can definitely tell the difference between the brisket and the pulled pork.

Regards,

Spares and baby backs are different parts of the rib.. baby backs are the part of the ribs near the tenderloin, and spares are the part of the ribs near the belly. If you look at yourself, the baby backs are closer to your spine, and the spares are closer to your stomach and sternum.

Ed,

Trimmed of the tips, would you expect baby backs and St. Louis to look virtually the same?

Regards,

I dunno, I defer to gary here. I'm not even sure I'm absolutely right in my definitions

I think the spares without the tips might be slightly larger than the baby backs, but I don't know. They would look identical in that all the ribs would be of equal length, though.

The baby backs might also have more meat on them than the spares.

gleam wrote:I think the spares without the tips might be slightly larger than the baby backs, but I don't know.

Ed,

Right, bone size on the spare rib/belly is larger than baby back ribs which is actually a misnomer and are more properly called loin back ribs unless a full rack weighs less than 1-3/4 pound.

Spare ribs, in addition to having a larger diameter bone, have more connective tissue, fat and are generally a tougher cut of meat than loin backs. It's harder work supporting the pigs belly than it is hanging out with the loin up by the shoulder.

There are some BBQ guys, though not including myself, that are slightly dismissive of loin back ribs, feeling spare ribs, are more challenging to smoke properly, yield better payoff as to flavor, meat to bone ratio and just generally more delectable.

Saint Louis ribs, as I mentioned in my footnote up thread, are tip-off trimmed spare ribs. My guess is when baby back style ribs became immensely popular some entrepreneurial soul came up with the idea of trimming less expensive spare ribs to resemble baby back ribs and named them Saint Louis Ribs. As an added bonus they could sell the tips separately.

If one is ever uncertain as to Saint Louis (trimmed spare ribs) or loin back/baby back the loin back rib bones will have a distinct curve to them, in addition to being smaller diameter.

Enjoy,
Gary

gleam wrote: If you look at yourself, the baby backs are closer to your spine, and the spares are closer to your stomach and sternum.

I'll remember this next time Smoque runs out of St. Louis.
My hunger for ribs can not be denied!

G Wiv wrote:I read nothing like that in T Comps statement or I would not have responded such as I did.

I don't think I read anything into it.
In direct response to his own observation that Smoque had far more diners than Honey 1, T Comp stated that it bothers him to see that sides and sauce rather than "the Que" are the "determining" factors in "popularity".
Such a comment pretty much inherently presumes that those who were at Smoque rather than Honey 1 based their choice on sides and sauce and not the meat, and that this is something to be "disheartened" about.

The implication seemed clear enough, even without the added disparaging comments about the type of "demographic" that would choose to drink wine with BBQ.

griffin wrote:I don't think I read anything into it.

Griffin,

We disagree and, frankly, T Comp's interior monologue is not something to which I intend on devoting much time.

Might I suggest you think of BBQ in terms of beer, seems to me a serious BBQ aficionado criticizing focus on the sauce, sides as opposed to the meat/method, might be a bit like a dyed in the wool beer guy bemoaning the fact an offering from an artisan brewer is being talking about only in terms of alcohol content as opposed to style of brew, flavor, hops etc.

Enjoy,
Gary

jeffcoloma wrote: i think i hit on what I find a little off putting at smoque. this came to me while going to their really big and neat washroom with antibacterial foam soap and auto-sensing paper towel dispenser. smoque is very neat. it's almost reminiscent of chipotle.

<u><b>New SMOQUE debate:</b></u>

i much prefer foam soap & auto dispenser as opposed to bar soap & manual towel dispenser. it's way 2 much work to pull the handle thingee thing. cleanliness is next to BBQ-ness.

and CHIPOTLE! that's just downright meeen.

The all knowing G Wiv does seem to know my inner monologue and has expressed it better than I may have in his follow up posts.

First I did not mean to disparage Smoque and I was on my 3rd visit, and would have gladly eaten there if they had brisket. I talked to Barry on my 1st visit, on their 1st day and told him it was the best brisket I had ever had in Chicago. We discussed their trips to Texas and the hard work put in to developing their product. I wish them all the success in the world and intend to frequent.

But..... I feel and wish the same sort of buzz going on at Smoque was going on at Honey One especially with the Adam's efforts in moving their operation over from the West Side.

I love barbecue and no doubt am biased to the old school style. Look at the photos Trixie Pea posted of The Shady Rest in Owensboro Kentucky. Look at that BBQ pit. I wish that pit could be given a historical designation and saved. Actually my comment on the sauce and sides was more about what is even happening in the BBQ belt, where people wait in line for Corky's or Famous Dave's and the Shady Rest is a closing.

Finally, a nice German Riesling can match up with good barbecue but only at home, never in public.

What's wrong with wine and smoked meat? I like wine with smoked meat. I seem to recall quite a few of us brought wine to the LTH Honey1/CheckPlease event and no one seemed to be turning up their noses at it...

"The place was jammed and hopping with wine bottles on several tables. (Wine and Que? Hmph)

"...Smoque...seems to have some potential but already seems to be headed in a different demographic direction."

Leek, sounds mighty like a case of inverse snobbery to me...

Lunch at Smoque was terrific. Had the sliced brisket sandwich with slaw and baked beans. The slaw had a nice vinaigrette, crisp cabbage and just a touch too much red onion for my taste. The beans were nicely smokey with bits of sauted onion. Brisket was juicy with a nice depth of flavor and good char on the outside. What surprised me was the bread. Pillow soft, but substantial enough that it absorbed the juices and bbq sauce without falling apart. Great iced tea rounded out a wonderful meal. I'll go back some evening with some friends and zinfandel or new world syrah.

G Wiv wrote:We disagree and, frankly, T Comp's interior monologue is not something to which I intend on devoting much time.

It's not his internal monologue that I was responding to, it’s the presumptions that are logically entailed by what he said.

Might I suggest you think of BBQ in terms of beer, seems to me a serious BBQ aficionado criticizing focus on the sauce, sides as opposed to the meat/method, might be a bit like a dyed in the wool beer guy bemoaning the fact an offering from an artisan brewer is being talking about only in terms of alcohol content as opposed to style of brew, flavor, hops etc.

If I had good reason to believe that alcohol content was the sole concern and basis of choice for people drinking it over some other craft beer, then I (as a beer aficionado) might find it disheartening. However, if I happened to overhear a couple people talking about the beer and referring to its alcohol content, that wouldn’t bother me in the least, because 1) alcohol content is quite relevant to the overall beer drinking experience and affects taste of other aspects (as does sauce to meat), and 2) such comments would provide no reasonable basis to presume that those referring to the alcohol are not also and even primarily concerned with the overall taste and other components.

If the people packing Smoque were in fact only choosing and appraising it on the basis of sauce and sides, then I would agree that this is "disheartening". My objection is that there is no reasonable basis to presume that is the case. Sauce and sides are not utterly irrelevant to a BBQ experience. In fact, unless one has zero interest in ever putting any sauce on the meat, the sauce quality is absolutely critical precisely because it can compliment or hide the flavor of the meat.
The fact that some have mentioned the sauce and sides doesn't remotely imply that the meat isn't the #1 factor in their appraisal of Smoque. It means only that they find the sauce and sides worthy of mention, either in addition to whatever they think about the meat or precisely because those things (especially the sauce) compliment rather than undermine the meat itself. Also, for people who find Smoque and Honey 1 hard to compare on the meat, due to each offering and emphasizing different strengths, it makes sense for them to place some emphasis on the sauce, fries and sides as factors that more clearly favor one place over the other.

I agree with TComp and probably yourself that it is sad when places that make real BBQ struggle to exist while places that make faux-que smothered in gloppy sauce thrive. But that has nothing to do with Smoque and Honey 1, since both make quality que with meat that could stand on its own. Smoque’s early success should be a welcome sight to anyone who loves quality slow-smoked meats and cannot be reasonably attributed to people lacking sufficient consideration for the que itself.

Going back to your beer analogy, a more apt analogy would be two quality brewpubs who make very good craft beer but focus on different styles. One place just serves up mediocre food, and focuses on hot wings that don’t compliment and might even hinder the beer tasting. The other produces better food and offers items particularly designed to compliment the beer flavor profiles. The serious beer aficionado would not only not be bothered by people talking about the food, but would realize that the beer tasting experience of the places could not even be fully evaluated without consideration of the food.

To get back to less heady topics...
Probably don't need anymore opinions on this place, but...I thought the pulled pork, brisket, St. Luey's and coleslaw were all fine. However-somebody dumped a pile of sugar into those otherwise great beans. I'm hoping this was a one-shot deal-or has anyone else experienced this? Anyway, nice food overall.

Hi all and Happy New year. This is quite the hot thread. We went last thurs and were really happy with our food. We were amazed that it was doing such great business. Not only was every table taken and there were like 10 people standing inside and out waiting for carry out orders, but people were coming in, looking at the crowded situation and then leaving! That's how crowded it was.
Don't think I can say much that hasn't already been said that I agree with. Everything was excellent. Our brisket was tender, juicy and smokey. Same goes for pulled pork and the ribs, both kinds! Someone said the slaw had kind of an asian quality to it, I agree. We thought it was similar to thai cucumber salad, but with cabbage instead of cucumbers.
The gentleman taking my order asked if I had heard about Smoque on the internet and specifically LTH. I confirmed and he went on to say that they were paying attention to comments here on LTH and stopped serving up the ribs pre-sliced in part because of what they read here. GO LTH!!!!

stewed coot wrote:To get back to less heady topics...
Probably don't need anymore opinions on this place, but...I thought the pulled pork, brisket, St. Luey's and coleslaw were all fine. However-somebody dumped a pile of sugar into those otherwise great beans. I'm hoping this was a one-shot deal-or has anyone else experienced this? Anyway, nice food overall.

I agree tht the beans are a bit on the sweet side. That's why I've been calling for a bit of heat in the form of jalapenos to offset some of the sweetness. I don't think that they are over the top sweet, but they are a bit cloying for my taste.

stevez wrote:I agree tht the beans are a bit on the sweet side. That's why I've been calling for a bit of heat in the form of jalapenos to offset some of the sweetness. I don't think that they are over the top sweet, but they are a bit cloying for my taste.

If they have hot sauce in the place you could add it to taste...

leek wrote:If they have hot sauce in the place you could add it to taste...

Yes, but that's not quite the same as cooking a few jalapenos along with the onions and beans. The flavors mellow and mingle when everything is cooked together. It's a minor quibble, though.

I've been to smoque several times by now. My opinion.... overall better than I expected it to be but I find the ribs too lean and somewhat dry. Same problem with the brisket, though this seems to hold up better. I suspect they're spraying something on the brisket to keep it moist. Tthis seems to work, but isn't really the same as using fattier / jucier meat in the first place. Also, smoke level seems erratic, really good one time and then barely perceptible the next. All in all more like Fat Willys then Honey 1 or Lems. Maybe it's what I'm used to, but this just doesn't replace a tip/link combo with mixed sauce and a couple pieces of white bread soaked in rib juice. It just don't. But not bad either.

griffin wrote:It's not his internal monologue that I was responding to, it’s the presumptions that are logically entailed by what he said.

Griffin,

I think we've beat this horse to death. Though if you think further discussion is warranted, let's meet at Honey 1, you bring the beer, I'll buy the BBQ.

Enjoy,
Gary

Loved Smoque! Went in for lunch with hubby and toddler. The place was pretty empty at that time. We had the sliced brisket sandwich and the pulled pork sandwich, with fries and mac-n-cheese. It traveled well back home to Niles. The place was very nice and CLEAN! As a pregnant woman traveling with a 2 year old I really appreciate a clean washroom!

We convinced my parents to try it and they had the St. Louis ribs. They liked them but my dad thought the rub was a bit salty. I ate the leftovers the next day and I was pleased!

We were hardcore fans of N.N. Smokehouse and Brudders BBQ so that is what we compare all bbq to. N.N. and Brudders were a bit better (maybe because the sauce-I could drink it it was so good).

Smoque also wasn't as chauncy as Honey 1, but they were chauncier than Brudders.

Overall, we will be back for sure. We hope they eventually add tips to the menu.