I agree with you, Steve. In my own case (which may be similar to others'), I think the issue is variety and scarcity. What I mean by that is that I like both styles but I wish I could have access to New York pizza more often than once or twice a year (as often as I typically travel east). I think the scarcity of New York style pizza (basically unavailable here) creates a (legitimate) enhanced desire for the style, but concomitant with that it also sometimes creates the (illegitimate or unfair) underestimation and underappreciation of the local product. I work hard to avoid the latter sentiment, which only creates contention over a really trivial issue. Another point from my own experience, I have never had one of the "great" New York pizzas, mainly just what I've had in Syracuse and central New Jersey, yet I can't wait to get a slice or ten every time I am in either place. Those aren't great pizzas I have been enjoying in my eastern travels, but they do reflect the New York style pretty well from what I understand it to be (including the bubbly, shortening-free, bread-like crust and lighter application of cheese and toppings). Conversely, I have had most of the big name and "great" Chicago pizzas, as well as a few of the lousier Chicago pizzas. I like both and crave both and seek out both styles, when I can get them. For me then it's not a case of comparing quality as it is comparing style, liking both styles and judging them on their own merits. Just my two or three cents' worth.

I'm not trying to argue about one style being better than another either. I am more concerned with overall quality in any style.

That being said, I do think it's fair to compare, say, cheese quality, in two different styles. Bad cheese is bad cheese.

Eastern Style Pizza on Touhy is the closest I've come to the pizza in my memory while in school in NYC.

Eastern Style Pizza 2911 W. Touhy Ave. 773-761-4070

CMC wrote:I'm not saying there aren't a lot of places I'll eat and can say I enjoy, but the only places I'd tout as being truly outstanding and worthy of a trip would be Old Chicago on 79th, Aurelios and Pequods. And I would take somebody hankering for NY style slices to Gigios.

So few places in a pizza town? Contrast that with ten or so Middle Eastern, a gazillion Mexican places and countless other restaurants that I consider worth a trip for. And contrast that with the 10 or so pizza places that I've been to in NY that truly blew me away (I've been to about 25 other places that were merely really good)(and keep in mind I live in Chicago and only visit NY once in a while).

The most frustrating thing to me about the Chicago pizza dialogue, is the tendency to reduce the criticism of Chicago pizza to stylistic preference.

I agree with CMC's point, that for a place with such a sturdy reputation for pizza, there is an overwhelming amount of very poor pizza and a relatively small number of very good places. Style is an issue, to some degree, in evaluating how those very good places stack up against other very good places across the country.

As such, relative strengths of the Chicago pizza scene--deep dish, stuffed, and the too-frequently-forgotten-in-this-debate Sicilian-style sheet pizza (sfincione?)--are in my experience much easier to find in Chicago than elsewhere in the country. "Flat pizza", as the locals apparently know all the styles more prevalent in the rest of the country, are very, very weak here, I think, as a genre.

I think this point, while not proven, is illustrated by the wide acclaim given Zaffiro's in Milwaukee and, to a much lesser degree, Wells Bros. in Racine. In how many food groups can you find the equal or better of Chicago's best in our less cosmopolitan neighbors to the north? Sure there are local specialties that we lack altogether, like VI's divine kringle, but something so universal as the flat pizza? Surely if we are a great pizza town we should boast some great flat pizzas?

Similarly, the other places for which Milwaukee is known on this board (Jake's, Speed Queen, Kopp's) all represent area in which Chicago is thought to be relatively weak (Jewish deli, BBQ, frozen custard).

Now one might point out, I say it's not about style, and then I talk about style. Not to split hairs too finely, but by style I mean regional style, e.g. New York, New Haven, Naples, (Dayton!?). All these are styles, I would say, of the genre "flat pizza", a distinction made by Chicagoans to differentiate the local creation and specialty. I begrudge neither the difference nor the specialty. But this is NOT a destination city, nor even I think, a very good one, for flat pizza.

Wow, talk about beating a dead horse....

At this stage of the game, it seems to me that differences in personal tastes simply must be accepted as such. Regardless of whether individual pizza preferences derive from familiarity bordering on provincialism, ie, the taste and style that one first and most commonly encountered and thus takes to be the only "real" pizza (See Peter Reinhart's great book American Pie for further amplification of this topic) or preference for one element over another (lovers of tons of cheese and meat would gravitate towards Chicago deep dish, for example, while those who value crust would probably lean towards NYC), there will just never be any agreement or resolution to the debate about the relative quality or taste of Chicago vs. NYC pizza. I know what I like, and am always willing to try a new place that looks promising and also looks like the people making the pizza put some degree of care and thought into the product. Pizza is equally popular in both cities, but the dish does tend to have more of an "assembly line" or "snack/junk food" association in Chicago. Certainly, though, the good pizza parlors in Chicago are the ones that differ from the norm somehow (in all of the represented styles) while in NYC the bad pizza parlor is the exception. The slice of pizza, Chicago style, is most commonly seen as the afterthought food, left to stay heated in the glass case rack at the hot dog/gyros/beef/sausage/taco shop. This slice, almost without fail, will have a soggy crust, a thick, near tomato paste "sauce" (either cloyingly sweet or tasteless) and a very, very thick layer of oily cheese, usually mozzerella blended with another, processed mixed cheese. I'm sure this tastes great to some people, but it doesn't do much for me. The few places that take care to bake a fresh product with better quality ingredients and with regard to things like texture, balance of flavor, and appearance are the exception in Chicago; some succeed, some still fail. I had take out from Piece 2 nights ago for the first time in months, and it was delicious. Even a bit luke warm after the car ride home, the flavor of each element was distinct and tasty, suggesting a knowledgeable baker and the choice to use good cheese, vegetables, flour, tomatoes, and spices. Even within the realm of the traditional Chicago pizza styles, quality can vary wildly from establishment to establishment, ie, Chicago thin crust (Vito and Nick's apparently the best example of such; I tried Old Chicago on 79th, and while the owner, Paul, talked a great game and even gave my friends and me the pizza on the house, his pie tasted exactly like the generic, square cut junk one finds everywhere in the city.) deep dish (the Uno's vs Gino's East vs. Due vs. I don't give a shit because deep dish really turns me off) and the bakery pizza (Sicilia, Masi, D'Amato's - all somewhat similar and all delicious). Gigio's has the shape and smell right, but is nowhere near a NYC slice of pizza. It tastes ok, but the texture, balance of flavor, and proportions of ingredients are all wrong. Cafe Luigi has what is the closest to a NYC slice in Chicago, and even that is only most of the way there. Water is not an issue. Tradition or context might be. As close as Cafe Luigi is to a NYC slice, it's still on Clark Street in Chicago. Just as a work of art has provenance and "aura" (to use Benjamin's term), what goes into food has a lot to do with the cultural, geographical, and physical influences of that particular location. Which has to account for why a relatively basic and simple food can be so radically different in two cities in the same country with similar immigration patterns that aren't too far apart. The development of commerce, populations, and ethnic neighborhoods in both Chicago and New York have shaped the quality, emphasis on, and particular presentation of pizza in both cities. New York has kept it a simple, unfettered, inexpensive street food; a handful of ingredients, but the best representatives of said elements. Chicago's deep dish culture came from a clearly Middle American, "bigger is better" mentality, and so the crust became a thick pie with as much cheese, sauce, and meat one can possibly pile on top of it. Bakery pizza in Chicago is the most Italian in style, and the most basic - left over bread dough reshaped, simply topped (sometimes without cheese) and transformed into a sheet pan shaped snack or side dish. This style is sometimes compared to the NYC "Sicilian" style, but is really its own animal. NYC Sicilian has a more textured, varied crust and more cheese - it's generally thicker, crispier, with the crisp bottom crust well done and olive-oily ,and the middle and top crusts being silkier and moister. I guess the classically defined, NYC neapolitan slice, and the elements it requires to create it, will just never really be found in Chicago. I have sought, however, and have been rewarded with some really good Chicago pizza. But not, if we are to base definitions of such a term on what is most commonly available and recognized or thought of as such, "Chicago style pizza." The traditions which worked together to create the NYC pizza apparently never took root in Chicago. So, we have what we have, and some people are perfectly content to eat the square cut pie or glass case slice, thinking, even, that that is what pizza should be. It only takes the exceptions - the DOC's, Pieces, Luigi's, Follias, and bakeries to cast the run of the mill Chicago pizza into sharp contrast and reveal it for the inferior prouct it truly is. Anyone who would favor the pizza of Giordano's, Bacci, Old Chicago, etc, etc... over these aforementioned exceptions is displaying either stubborness, some bizzare, wrongheaded form of hometown pride, or just plain old provincialism, but not good taste in food.

Rebbe

Rebbe,

I agree with you on one thing. I have never encountered a heat lamp pizza that has been any good, nor have I encountered one which I consider a good example of Chicago Style pizza. Those pies fall more into the "what the rest of the country eats" style of pizza.

OTOH, this last Saturday night, my thin crust, square cut pizza at Marie's was Chicago (thin crust) pizza perfection. Good sauce, real cheese, crispy crust, quality sausage, made with care. MMMMMMM Good.

For the millionth time, I just do not buy it.

While ever pizzaria in Chicago is not great, there is plenty of great pizza in Chicago. Let's flip the situation around, there are plenty of crappy hot dog places, does that mean that Chicago does not have good hot dogs?

Personally, I have found more day in/day out pizza in Chicago that I like than the pizza I have tried in other cities. That does not mean that every pizza in Chicago is better than every pizza in every other city, nor does it mean that there are not great pizzas in places outside of Chicago, perhaps even better pizzas--I have yet to try New Haven pizza, but it surely looks great.

The problem with this whole debate is that people who think there is no good pizza in Chicago take, a priori, the word of any other pizza dissenter, and dismiss completely, the opinions of anyone who likes pizza in Chicago. *They* cannot know pizza, 'cause I do not it...

I also catagorically disagre with the notion that pizza in Chicago is junk food or fast food. To me, that is much more the NYC situation. Most pizza in Chicago is eaten as whole pies ordered to eat at home OR at restaurants, where it is eaten as whole pies. I would suggest that this generally is where the better pizza is.

Now, I agee there CAN be better fast food pizza. A good slice as an alternative to a hot dog or an italian beef. As I have offered before, I think the slice issue has to do with re-heating/heating, not the underlying pizza.

Rob

"there is an overwhelming amount of very poor pizza and a relatively small number of very good places"

Aaron, well, that could be said about any number of places, Manhattan and Los Angeles for example.

Look, I love great New Haven style pizza (I choose that term because there you have a small place with a relative bounty of good pizza, quite unlike most of NY).

And I have long sung the praises of Chicago's scacciata/sfincione/bakery pizza.

But I also like Chicago's flat, short dough pizza, and I really have to disagree that the lowest common denominator for pizza here is lower than other places in the US. I mean, in my experience eating what the locals say is good pizza all over the country, I don't know how you can suggest that the common wisdom is backward and that this is actually a particularly bad pizza town. Visitors whose taste I know and respect look forward to eating pizza here. Erudite food folks from the Bay Area wrangle over who does the best Chicago style (admittedly, deep dish) over on the other board. At some point, especially when we are talking street food, the people have spoken.

Let's forget about the crust for a minute (though food boards are loaded with people trying to replicate the Malnati's/Pizano's "butter" crust, which works well with "flat" pizza as well as the Chicago "tavern" style of super-flat from places such as Vito & Nick, Aurelio's, D'Agostino's). The run-of-the-mill Chicago pizza palce's toppings (the sausage and the cheese especially, but other stuff too -- you never see canned mushrooms here, eg), are head and shoulders above most other cities' offerings. Even die hard East Coast pizza lovers and Italian food cognoscenti have agreed in the past.

To me, it does indeed come down to the crust style. Are there ten great pizzerie in NYC? Some might argue fewer. So why should we be surprised that there are fewer here, in a city with its own tradition?

I also think you go out on a limb with your suggestion that one Speed Queen makes Milwaukee a better BBQ town than Chicago and one Jakes makes it a better place for Deli, but that's all beside the point.

I'd still like to find the corner take-out only spot with a guy hand-tossing simple dough and throwing it into a hot oven, like you can find in NY, CT, PA and parts of FL where people from the above places opened up shop. There's very little overhead or infrastructure, but some skill involved. And, I'm a little frustrated that here the best examples of this simple fare come from rather fancy places such as Folia, the new L8 by Phil Stefani, even DOC. I think an old-school takeout window would work near Wrigley Field as well as it does any place on earth. It would fit in perfectly with theother modest, international storefronts.

And, PS, to the rabbi:

You said,

"Bakery pizza in Chicago is the most Italian in style, and the most basic - left over bread dough reshaped, simply topped (sometimes without cheese) and transformed into a sheet pan shaped snack or side dish. This style is sometimes compared to the NYC "Sicilian" style, but is really its own animal."

Where did you get this? No offense, but the sfincione here is not, as far as I know, just thrown together from leftover dough. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the dough is much closer in form to focaccia. This pizza has its own recipe and provenance, one that seems obvious when you try the same thing at the Sicilian/Cuban bakeries in Tampa or places in western PA that have been doing it the same way for 100 years and know nothing of eachother. Here, I think, the NYC "Sicilian" you mention seems to be the new kid on the block, and more likely to be made from the same basic dough as the flat pizza. I find the thick crust at Art of Pizza to be quite the same, though I don't like it.

On the NY pizzeria being a nearly no-risk proposition, we disagree.

PPS, re immigration patterns: 100 years ago, when Neapolitan pizza was still a relatively new thing in Naples, there were more Neapolitans settling on the East Coast, with a larger number of Sicilians (proportionally) coming here. I agree that the East Coast style clearly is directly linked to the old country. I also think that the Chicago styles are more Italian American. They are inventions, snacks to be given away at taverns, not anyone's idea of "authentic." I don't see the invention of deep dish as a particularly Midwestern event, though I guess I can see its eager acceptance and popularity that way. Though I find a slice of Gino's, cheese only, to be no heavier than a bready "Sicilian" cut.

Here's what sfincione looks like in Sicily (much closer to what is sold here, I'd say):

http://www.palermoweb.com/panormus/gast ... ncione.htm

JeffB wrote:I'd still like to find the corner take-out only spot with a guy hand-tossing simple dough and throwing it into a hot oven, like you can find in NY, CT, PA and parts of FL where people from the above places opened up shop.

Granted, they are not take out only places, but this is exactly what you find when you go to Marie's. There is one guy (sometimes two when they are busy) handmaking the pizzas in the window and throwing them in the oven. Also, to a lesser degree, Vito & Nick's follow this pattern (at least at the original location), where the many pizza cooks are handmaking the pizzas behind the counter as you walk in the joint.

stevez wrote:Granted, they are not take out only places, but this is exactly what you find when you go to Marie's. There is one guy (sometimes two when they are busy) handmaking the pizzas in the window and throwing them in the oven. Also, to a lesser degree,

In my experience during very slow times (say, sunday at 2pm) they don't have anyone in the window, and pizzas are made and fired in the main kitchen. Sadly, the pizzas often don't taste as good when they aren't made by the guys in the window. But that might be all in my mind.

gleam wrote:In my experience during very slow times (say, sunday at 2pm) they don't have anyone in the window, and pizzas are made and fired in the main kitchen. Sadly, the pizzas often don't taste as good when they aren't made by the guys in the window. But that might be all in my mind.

That may be in your mind, but it may also be an endorsement of the guy who makes them in the window.

Saluti a tutti quanti!

I was going to stay out of this discussion ('u cavallu � veramente gi� muortu ma nu' tantu fetente ancora) but thought I could add a useful point in connexion with the bakery style pizza mentioned above by Hungry Rabbi and JeffB.

In a way, you're both right, in that -- as HR says -- the dough is sort of 'left-over' bread dough and -- as JeffB says -- the dough isn't just 'left-over' bread dough. A strangely contradictory statement that can, however, be rendered less absurd.

The bakery pizza is, from my observations at Masi's (and I would be shocked if the same didn't apply to D'Amato's-East), a by-product of the bread-making. The dough is compositional exactly the same as the bread dough, with just water, flour, yeast, and salt and it contains no fat whatsoever. Indeed, this is precisely why I like it so much and I think it justification for the claim that it is more Italian-like than the other Chicagoense short-dough products.

BUT I also noticed that Frank Masi has an arsenal of little tricks with regard to how the (by ingredient) self-same dough can be slightly changed for different purposes by means of manipulation of the rising process -- longer/shorter, quicker/slower. So the pizza dough is at once just left-over bread dough but it receives its own, slightly different handling.

Note too that the bakery pan-pizza, being cooked in a pan greased for ease of removal of the pie, picks up a very slight amount of fat (olive oil) at least on the outer surface of the crust. As a result of this, the final product has a little something of the character of a classical East Coast (New York-Jersey-Haven) pie, for which the dough receives a tiny amount of olive oil. All things considered, this East Coast approach is much closer to the Neapolitan way of doing things than the Chicago pastry-approach but violates Neapolitan DOC rules, according to which the dough must not include any fat. The bakery style pan-pizza is pizza (and I believe a very old fashioned style at that) but not DOC pizzeria style pizza alla Napolitana in part for this reason (being cooked on a greased pan) and in part also for the fact that it is baked in an oven whose tempreature is set for the making of bread and not at the much higher temperature used in a pizzeria oven.

Finally, there is no way to get around the question of style with regard to the crust. Preference there is one of those indisputable matters of taste but, that said, eternal and universal principles of beauty, elegance, honesty and wisdom all justify the statement that Neapolitan-style is best and others should be ranked with regard to how close they come to that ideal or how egregiously they deviate from it.*

E a chi nun piace, va fa'...

... g��h, va fa' na pizza come piace a tte.�



pizzescamente,
Antonius

* This paragraph gratuitously (and affectionately) added to get SteveZ going.

� Rough, non-nuanced paraphrase: If you don't like it, get one you do like.

Well, if sfincione is as close to NY style as we can come in Chicago, I'd like to propose a question: where's the best sfincione in the city to be found?

I've heard good things about Freddy's (has the Check Please phenomenon set in?) and Antonius has mentioned Italian Superior Bakery as good for a slice. A sfincione-a-thon would probably be the only reliable way to answer this question but, in the meantime, I'd like to see what people suggest.

Antonius, I agree with almost everything you said except about Old Chicago. Did you get the deep dish? It sounds like you got the thin crust, which I think is OK but not the pizza to get at Old Chicago.

I can't remember who, but somebody questioned whether there were 10 great places in NYC. Great is relative. Are there 10 places that stand out above the rest in NYC and would be the #1 place in almost any other city in the country? Absolutely. But there also happen to be a lot of other places that would be considered great if it weren't for those other 10 taking it to another level.

I'd also like to bring up something unrelated to style:pride. In Chicago, many different types of people show great pride in their food and restaurants. Sometimes this pride is evident merely in the way they prepare the food. Other times it shows when a cook or chef talks about his food. Or when you know the place is spending a little extra on something to make it great even though the chef knows most people won't even notice. I think a lot of us have experienced this in a Mexican, Asian or a Middle-Eastern restaurant. Obviously a lot of this is pride in their culture as well, which is great. But there are quite a few other types of places where pride is evident. Hot Doug's, Lems--many many of our favorites, many bakeries, certain coffee shops, even a good bartender.

But, where is the pride in pizza making in Chicago? Paul at Old Chicago is damn proud of his pizza. The place on Grand near the Blue Line seems to be pretty into what they do (even though I'm not thrilled with their over-cheesed slices). There once was a place in downtown Wheaton (of all places) where the owner was very talkative and you could see that he felt that he was making the best pizza he possibely could. Most of the Italian bakeries that make sheet pizza are proud--but that shouldn't be a surprise. Anybody else? I'm lucky if I get a shrug if I make any comment about somebody's pizza. In my experience, most places just don't give a damn and I think it shows in their crappy ingredients in all styles.

First contrast this with the obvious pride you can find in many other Chicago restaurants and cafes.

Then contrast this with experiences you get in NYC pizzerias (and I hope I don't have to tell people on this board that places around Times Square and other touristy areas aren't going to have any pride either). In the great places and the just really damn good places you will likely see the same pride in pizza that you see in other cuisines in Chicago.

If I'm wrong about this, I would like to hear examples of pizzas that are made with pride and care-- not just food to mouth factories. And please, please, please do not bring up the trendier more expensive places.

CMC wrote:Antonius, I agree with almost everything you said except about Old Chicago. Did you get the deep dish? It sounds like you got the thin crust, which I think is OK but not the pizza to get at Old Chicago.

CMC:

That wasn't me about Old Chicago -- haven't been there but would be more than willing to try it.

I have strong opinions in the styles I prefer but I also agree with those who are able and willing to acknowledge that there is a broad range of quality available in all styles in their home areas and that the best of each are pretty tasty.

Nota bene: regarding Italian Superior Bakery (ISB) and other such bakery pies, one must be very aware of the fact that these places are not pizzerias. In a way, I really do think it legitimate to regard their pizza as just a by-product of bread making and so one approaches their products with a different mind-set than when going to a pizzeria, where pizza is the speciality and main focus of the business. ISB's pizza and D'Amato's too appeal to me precisely because they are dressed bread and so the crust is not the pastry crust AND the toppings are applied with good old Italian sobriety.

Now, Hot Tamale mentioned Freddy's -- another place I have yet to get a chance to visit -- but I have the impression from the Cheque-Pleez skit that Freddie makes pizzeria style pizzas and not just the bakery style pan-pizzas. Am I correct in this (or has senility really set in)? Also, do I remember correctly that Freddy himself is Napolitano?

For what it's worth, I wouldn't call what Masi's and D'Amato's serve up 'sfincione'.

Antonius

A modicum of pride:

http://www.aureliospizza.com/AureliosPride/Overview.htm

BTW, A, I guess I'd agree that the Chicago sheet pizza is not exactly sfincione, though it would seem to be the closest in style. Some Sicilian-American bakers call the same animal schiacciata or similar, though I know that's a broad term that varies from place to place. In light of the fact that there is consistency among bakery pizza, especially bakery pizza from Sicilian-American bakeries, what should we call this?

Freddy's makes two types of pizza:

One is 'sheet' pizza, like you see everywhere

The other is a round, thick crust pie, cooked in a very well seasoned black pizza pan. the crust is probably a solid inch of bready dough.

Ed:

Thanks for the details. I want to go but the Czech-pleez schtick I don't want to be part of. When's a good, off-peak time to go there?

***

JeffB wrote: A, I guess I'd agree that the Chicago sheet pizza is not exactly sfincione, though it would seem to be the closest in style. Some Sicilian-American bakers call the same animal schiacciata or similar, though I know that's a broad term that varies from place to place. In light of the fact that there is consistency among bakery pizza, especially bakery pizza from Sicilian-American bakeries, what should we call this?

Jeff:

I certainly don't object vociferously to your use of the term but for me it's specifically a Sicilian name and places such as Masi's and D'Amato's who aren't Sicilian are doing something 'native' and not borrowed from the big island. I guess I would be inclined to go for the dialectally more neutral "schiacciata" but these days a lot of these bakeries themselves like the more northern and thus high-falutin' sounding 'focaccia' (e.g., Ferrara's on Taylor by Ogden uses this term, I believe).

Sfincione, schiacciata, focaccia are all names for flat bread baked in a (greased) pan with a little stuff on it. But, while there are all sorts of things that are called 'focaccia', old recipes for Sicilian sfincione and Campanian schiacciata generally agree, I believe, in not having any fat included in the dough itself and so are directly related to the special variant that developed into pizza alla Napolitana.

Antonius

Antonius wrote:Ed:
Thanks for the details. I want to go but the Czech-pleez schtick I don't want to be part of. When's a good, off-peak time to go there?

I don't live anywhere near them nowadays, and haven't been out there since I lived in Oak Park (a year ago, before check please).

In my experience weekday afternoons are generally quiet. There's a lunch rush at noon, but that subsides. Along with pizza they also sell arancini, fried artichokes, they'll make sandwiches, and they often have one or two pasta dishes available. They've also got pepperoni bread available every day, but it usually sells out within a couple hours of them opening. Not anything approaching authentic italian, I'm sure, but quite good nonetheless.

They've also got a sizable selection of good gelati and italian ices.

-ed

I do like Aurelios. Quite a bit in fact. I wanted to include them and I suppose it's fair to do if you go to the Homewood location. However, other locations are more or less business operations spawned from a great original. The pizza is still decent at all the Aurelio's but there is definitely something missing outside of the Homewood location.

CMC wrote:I do like Aurelios. Quite a bit in fact. I wanted to include them and I suppose it's fair to do if you go to the Homewood location. However, other locations are more or less business operations spawned from a great original. The pizza is still decent at all the Aurelio's but there is definitely something missing outside of the Homewood location.

Have you been to the one by the post office on Harrison (I think it's actually in a Holiday Inn)? I pass it often and have wondered about it, especially given the off-the-beaten-path location.

A

No, I haven't. I've eaten in at the one in Munster and Homewood and gotten take out from 4 or 5 others, but all in the south burbs or nw Indiana.

I was told that the one on Harrison has slices for sale, which I think is unique to that location. I don't know if that means the pizza itself would be any different.

A--

Thanks for the explanation, which makes sense. I guess I had assumed that D'Amato's was Sicilian, BTW, given the location on Grand. Are the Barese like their neighbors? Also, regarding schiacciata, that's what I always knew it to be, given where the Italian side of my family came from. It's also the term in West Tampa, even though nearly all of the old families came from Alessandria della Rocca in Sicily. But I've been corrected enough to know that the term has quite a different meaning, apparently, in other parts of Italy. It's been a while, but I think Tuscan schiacciata is an egg-fortified Easter bread, eg. It seems that sfincione has a more limited meaning.

Aurelios has a nice product, and even some of the branches such as the one in the Downers Grove make a very good Chicago thin. (People in Hinsdale can get Aurelios and Salerno's delivered, but I can't. Hmph.) Never tried the South Loop location.

Antonius wrote:Sfincione, schiacciata, focaccia are all names for flat bread baked in a (greased) pan with a little stuff on it. But, while there are all sorts of things that are called 'focaccia', old recipes for Sicilian sfincione and Campanian schiacciata generally agree, I believe, in not having any fat included in the dough itself and so are directly related to the special variant that developed into pizza alla Napolitana.

There was a Calabrian place I used to go to back in Jersey that in addition to making pizza, the made what they called bruschett' (never to be called bruschetta, or, never, ever, brushetta).

It had some oil around the edges, the crust being slightly darker with that fried appearance on the bottom and sides compared to the pizza. The crust was much thicker than their pizza, and the topping was a liberal amount of tomato sauce with lots of fresh cut basil, olive oil, garlic, some black olives and I'd guess a few anchovies in there. No cheese.

It tasted great, but you didn't dare call it pizza. Those not wanting to tread their waters in a Southern Italian dialect got by in asking for "a slice of tomato."

hot tamale wrote:Well, if sfincione is as close to NY style as we can come in Chicago, I'd like to propose a question: where's the best sfincione in the city to be found?

I've heard good things about Freddy's (has the Check Please phenomenon set in?) and Antonius has mentioned Italian Superior Bakery as good for a slice. A sfincione-a-thon would probably be the only reliable way to answer this question but, in the meantime, I'd like to see what people suggest.

Nearly two years ago I compared 6 different bakery-style sheet pizzas (city only) and posted my comments on Chowhound. D'Amato's was my clear favorite, followed by Masi, Ferrara (can be variable), and Scafuri. Pompei and Metro were clearly at the bottom. Except for Metro, I tried each at least twice in about a 10 day period. My top spots would be the same today but to be fair I ought to give Metro another chance.

hungryrabbi wrote:Wow, talk about beating a dead horse....

At this stage of the game, it seems to me that differences in personal tastes simply must be accepted as such. Regardless of whether individual pizza preferences derive from familiarity bordering on provincialism, ie, the taste and style that one first and most commonly encountered and thus takes to be the only "real" pizza

Yeah, I know this gets talked to death, but for some reason I take pleasure in the debate. The stalwart defense of the state of Chicago flat pizza is quite possibly the most difficult food-related position for me to understand, among all of the many heated debates I've witnessed and taken part in here and on Chowhound before.

And it's not like I don't trust the palates of these folks...I just don't understand.

Vital Information wrote:While ever pizzeria in Chicago is not great, there is plenty of great pizza in Chicago. Let's flip the situation around, there are plenty of crappy hot dog places, does that mean that Chicago does not have good hot dogs?

It seems to me that there is far less difference between the average hot dog stand here and the best hot dog stands than there is between an average pizza shop here and the best pizza shops. Now, I'm not the aficionado you are, and I haven't been to Gene & Jude's, so maybe my calibration is off. But when I feel like a hot dog, it's not too difficult to find a dog to satisfy. It's kind of like what seems the main lesson of the Italian beef tasting--you know, Italian beef is pretty good. Sure, you're going to find some dreck, but by and large, I don't think it's too difficult to find a pretty good hot dog in this town. For me, that's not the case with pizza.

JeffB wrote:But I also like Chicago's flat, short dough pizza, and I really have to disagree that the lowest common denominator for pizza here is lower than other places in the US. I mean, in my experience eating what the locals say is good pizza all over the country, I don't know how you can suggest that the common wisdom is backward and that this is actually a particularly bad pizza town.

I don't mean to say that this is a particular bad flat pizza town, just that it's not a notably good flat pizza town. I'm sure there are lots of places around the country where it's hard to get a good flat pizza (and in nearly all of those, surely, it's much more difficult to get a good deep dish, or stuffed, or sheet pizza than it is here).

The best places for flat pizza here don't seem any better, and to my taste, actually worse than my favorite places elsewhere, namely the two other cities in which I have lived, Omaha and Irving, TX--hardly bastions of pizza fame. We're not talking New York or New Haven here. Even if I were to be convinced that the preference for these other pizzas over the best flat pizzas I've had here is based on familiarity and provinicialism, as hungryrabbi suggests (and surely, your tastes are informed by what you grew up with), I think my point is borne out in more objective terms of reputation and enthusiasm, both here on the board and elsewhere.

As CMC suggests, it strikes me that there are relatively few exalted flat pizza spots on the board, relative to say, Thai or Mexican. And I don't think Chicago's reputation as a great pizza town is based on the flat pizza. In fact, many people (perhaps not those as consumed with what people eat as we are here) seem surprised that Chicagoans eat much flat pizza (though, as I've said elsewhere, they would more likely say "regular" or "normal" pizza, I suspect).

And I still think my point about Milwaukee holds.

JeffB wrote:I also think you go out on a limb with your suggestion that one Speed Queen makes Milwaukee a better BBQ town than Chicago and one Jakes makes it a better place for Deli, but that's all beside the point.

I would certainly not say Milwaukee is a better town for deli or BBQ than Chicago. My point is that, when people are talking about the overall food scene here, deli and BBQ frequently come up as relative weaknesses. There are some great examples in each genre, but as a whole the genre is not seen as one of the city's strengths. It is maybe a little surprising but I don't at all think unrelated, that exceptional examples, relative to our Chicago scale, would pop up nearby. Milwaukee may not be a better deli town, but if someone says that the best pastrami and/or corned beef within 100 miles is in Milwaukee, I think that says something about the deli scene here in town. The same goes for flat pizza.

Cheers,

Aaron

Ed Levine on "The Sacred Art of Pizza Making," from today's NYT.

Erik M.

I actually bought the book last night. It proves everything I was saying was absolutely correct

Seriously, it's a good book and worth checking out. I've started reading it from front to back (instead of poking around for places I know,etc) so I haven't gotten to anything about Chicago yet.

This was picked up by USAToday a couple weeks back. Apparently, pizza expert, Ed Levine, disapproves of Chicago pizza. That's cool.

Do these hamburger, pizza, BBQ, hot dog safaris make money? If so, maybe someone here should throw their hat in the ring. I haven't looked at the pizza book yet, but other "best of" books usually seem like fairly light work. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Any pastrami books out there yet?

Do Chicagoans put salt and pepper on their pizza? I only know of New Yorkers who do that (Lawn Gilanders at that)

btw USA Today is a joke...