David Hammond wrote:I asked him if lamb and mole was a dish one might find in Mexico. "Oh no,"he said, "We don't like lamb. We have sheep everywhere, but we don't like lamb."

You may be in a better position to speak to this than I, given your recent (and not so recent) research into Mexico's regional cuisines, but I've found similar comments from Mexican natives both frequent and inaccurate. I don't know about lamb and mole in particular, but with Mexican cuisine so regionally diverse, I've found that some dishes I'm aware or familiar with are utterly foreign--not "Mexican"--to natives from a part of Mexico other than the origin of the dish.

You would expect someone in the restaurant biz, or someone interested in food, to be a bit more reliable, certainly, but I wonder how widely a sort of regional or experiential bias of what "Mexican food" is obtains. I know for my part, before I became at least passingly familiar with the huge range of Mexican (or Indian or Chinese etc.), I certainly and naively expected that any native citizen would accurately know the cuisine. Now, especially thinking of myself 10-15 years ago, a product of a Midwestern meat and potatoes and spaghetti household hardly uncommon, I wonder.

Aaron Deacon wrote:

David Hammond wrote:I asked him if lamb and mole was a dish one might find in Mexico. "Oh no,"he said, "We don't like lamb. We have sheep everywhere, but we don't like lamb."

I don't know about lamb and mole in particular, but with Mexican cuisine so regionally diverse, I've found that some dishes I'm aware or familiar with are utterly foreign--not "Mexican"--to natives from a part of Mexico other than the origin of the dish.

You would expect someone in the restaurant biz, or someone interested in food, to be a bit more reliable, certainly, but I wonder how widely a sort of regional or experiential bias of what "Mexican food" is obtains.

Aaron,

Oh, I'm sure you're right, and I didn't mean to present Senor Cisneros' opinion as the "correct" view of Mexican food in general or lamb/mole specifically, but just the opinion of an "expert"...subject, as you say, to his own regional and experiential limitations.

Determining regionality with any kind of accuracy is challenging. At Los Mogotes de Michoacan, I asked the nice girl behind the counter what she had that was typically Michoacana, and she said "tacos," and I'm sure she's right that they eat a lot of tacos in Michoacan, but that wasn't really what I was looking for, of course.

All that said, the lamb chops with mole negro at Fonda del Mar were, in my estimation, beautiful losers. The lamb chops were, as has been noted, extraordinarily mild (though delicious and perfectly prepared) and the black mole was some of the best I've had, but the sauce COMPLETELY overwhelmed the chops. I ate the chops, then sopped up the sauce with tortillas to savor the flavor of each. Together, they didn’t work.

I was fortunate The Wife went with pork in manchamanteles, an excellent version of one of Oaxaca's Seven Moles, a fruit-based sauce that our server told us is usually served at weddings (I've rarely if ever seen it in Chicago, though it wouldn't surprise me if Bayless offers it on occasion).

Hammond

Chilpancingo and (at least in its last incarnation) Ixcapuzalco both reliably have manchamanteles. Adobo grill sometimes (always?) has it, and I'd imagine it's available most other places, too.

Ed,

Ixcapuzalco, yes, forgot about that.

Never been to Adobo Grill, but it's on my list. Have you seen the almond-based mole there?

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:Never been to Adobo Grill, but it's on my list. Have you seen the almond-based mole there?

Hammond

It's on their online menu, but I've never had it. If you go, let us know how it compares to fonda del mar (which is on my list, now)

JimInLoganSquare wrote:Pepper and Corn Soup

This was one of the best things I've put in my mouth in months. Really, this is a "Top 10 of 2006" candidate. Rich, spicy, corny and delicious. Hope they have this when you come.

JiLS, aiming to get this soup, I ordered chileatole del mar (the closest thing to chili and corn soup I saw on the menu), and it was very tasty...with many hunks of seafood lurking within. I believe that is not what you ordered, right?

Hammond

Correct; there was no seafood, just the vegetables in what I got last Friday.

David Hammond wrote:

eatchicago wrote:

David Hammond wrote:JiLS,

I'm particularly intrigued by the lamb chops in mole negro. I was thinking the other night that one usually finds moles (in Chicago at least) on chicken or pork, the lighter white meats. In Susana Trilling's Seasons of My Heart (A Culinary Journey through Oaxaca, Mexico), the usual mole media is chicken, though she sometimes uses turkey and even hominy, but of the 11 moles recipes she presents, only one includes beef as part of a larger stew that also includes pork. No lamb or goat or other stronger meats are mole-ized. I have found a few recipes for lamb mole, but usually the preference seems to be for red or coloradito, not the negro as at Fonda del Mar (e.g., http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes ... 30,00.html).

Which is a round-about way of asking: how do you think the mole negro meshed with the lamb chop?

Hammond

Bayless seems to be a fan of lamb in mole negro. I've had an excellent version at Topo that meshed perfectly, and I've seen him prepare it on his show.

I look forward to trying the FdM version. Thanks JiLS.

Best,
Michael

Last week, I was sitting around waiting for my order at La Oaxaquena, and I started shooting the breeze with Rodrigo Cisneros, the owner, and I asked him if lamb and mole was a dish one might find in Mexico. "Oh no,"he said, "We don't like lamb. We have sheep everywhere, but we don't like lamb."

He had heard of the lamb and mole combo, of course, but seemed to think it strange. Traditionally, mole is served with wild turkey; when the wild turkeys disappeared, chicken or other mild poultry was substituted. Rodrigo felt that you wanted a somewhat bland meat to showcase the complexity of the mole.

Having just watched Bobby Flay prepare lamb in a peanut-based mole on Iron Chef America, I am left wondering if lamb in mole is entirely a nuevo-Latino concept.

Best,
Michael

A note about service.

Before I left Fonda, I asked our waiter for a little take home portion of mole, and he laid a mid-sized container on me, which I thought very decent of him.

Overall, we were delighted withe service -- very attentive three-man team was watching our table, and although some dishes seemed to take a little longer to come out than expected, it was clear that these guys are really trying.

And the food is good.

Hammond

gleam wrote:Chilpancingo and (at least in its last incarnation) Ixcapuzalco both reliably have manchamanteles. Adobo grill sometimes (always?) has it, and I'd imagine it's available most other places, too.

On my one visit to La Bonita/Ixcapuzalco, I had a marvelous mole manchamantales. It stained not just the tablecloth, but my napkin, my shirt, my teeth and, most likely, my digestive tract a bright orange. Hurrah for manchamantales!

Well, after reading this thread...I ask..is this the place to host a party for 10-15 south side girls from beverly who hardly cross the mason-dixon line (aka Madison)...I love all good food, lived north for 10 years, enjoy traveling to NYC for super food, but like litle storefronts... and now getting ready to move to New York State...I want to have a great culinary evening...with out pretention, but good service..can you bring the fixin's for marguritas?? wine???


Any advice??

MANY LTHER'S WERE SMITTEN WITH THIS STOREFRONT DIAMOND IN THE ROUGH...

so i phoned to make a rez for party and was told "no more rez's for 5 or more"...too rowdy, too much wine, disturbing other customers...now parties can only be booked on Sundays, tues-thursday...

I am still on the hunt for a party restaurant for a bunch of southside gals who could use a culinary boost...

Never thought i would here...no rez'z for over 5 people!!!!

The lther' must really know how to Munch and drown in their cote de rhone

buffalo gal wrote:MANY LTHER'S WERE SMITTEN WITH THIS STOREFRONT DIAMOND IN THE ROUGH...

so i phoned to make a rez for party and was told "no more rez's for 5 or more"...too rowdy, too much wine, disturbing other customers...now parties can only be booked on Sundays, tues-thursday...

I am still on the hunt for a party restaurant for a bunch of southside gals who could use a culinary boost...

Never thought i would here...no rez'z for over 5 people!!!!

The lther' must really know how to Munch and drown in their cote de rhone

I cannot say I am shocked by this policy. The Sunday night we were there (before MLK's birthday -- day off), we sat next to a table of maybe eight young ones, and they had at least 14 wine bottles on the table, and were blissfully hammered halfway through appetizers. We were finishing up as they were starting, so we didn't stick around to see what happened, but I can see how a BYOB policy + inexpensive/somewhat trendy chow could = big problems for waitstaff.

Hammond

The policy is definitely a good move on their part. I sheepishly admit that I was one of 8 at a table littered with wine bottles on Saturday night, though we made the reservation for 6 p.m. so as--I assumed--not to annoy or fight the crowds. Too bad the others in our party didn't have the same thought in mind, and felt that lingering at the table was their natural-born right and privilege for getting in early. Ugh. We left around 8 p.m. Awful, awful restaurant etiquette, and I have sworn never to eat out with this group again.

As others have said, the place was PACKED, but is well worth it (I say this as a person who didn't have to wait, so....) I had ceviche de jaiba and fish tacos (both excellent) and sampled the lamb. This place is definitely a find, but do yourself (and the restaurant, and everyone waiting in line behind you) a favor, and don't go with a party of more than four or five.

crrush wrote:I had ceviche de jaiba and fish tacos (both excellent)

(with fingers crossed...) *Fried* fish tacos?

kl5 wrote:

crrush wrote:I had ceviche de jaiba and fish tacos (both excellent)

(with fingers crossed...) *Fried* fish tacos?

Well, the fish is fried, then placed in a soft tortilla. It was good, but not TdP good.

Hammond

Okay, yeah, they were fried. Nice and crispy. I typically like a corn tortillas because they don't get all soggy from the tacos jus yum-ness, but the flour tortilla held up alright.

As someone who did not have the pleasure of experiencing TdP, I cannot compare the two. I've had the tilapia fish taco with mango salsa at May St. Cafe (Cermak/May St. in Pilsen), and I do like it, though the soggy flour tortilla is always a problem for the last bite or two. Speaking of, they've re-opened May St., and it's all kinds of swanky inside, although the menu is still the same. Killer tortilla soup, if you can take the heat.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the owners of TdP have opened a new place. Will prayer help?

David Hammond wrote:

kl5 wrote:(with fingers crossed...) *Fried* fish tacos?

Well, the fish is fried, then placed in a soft tortilla. It was good, but not TdP good.

Hammond

Considering the only other place I can think of that has Baja style (and I use that term very loosely) tacos is de Cero ( ), Fonda is now officially on my short list. Thanks for the tip.

Kristen

crrush wrote:Speaking of, they've re-opened May St., and it's all kinds of swanky inside, although the menu is still the same. Killer tortilla soup, if you can take the heat.

I noticed that! I was sure the place was gone for, since they started the remodeling back in the summer. Maybe they ran out of capital temporarily or something.

Glad to know it isn't a new place or a new concept. Is it still BYO?

I believe it's still BYO, but I went at lunchtime...and I generally try not to throw back a six-pack before 2 p.m. Ha.

Mario did put in a really swank-looking bar, along with a killer concrete sink from that place on Halsted, so I'm sure it's just a matter of time. If you saw the place before, you won't believe what the inside looks like now.

crrush wrote:I believe it's still BYO, but I went at lunchtime...and I generally try not to throw back a six-pack before 2 p.m. Ha.

Mario did put in a really swank-looking bar, along with a killer concrete sink from that place on Halsted, so I'm sure it's just a matter of time. If you saw the place before, you won't believe what the inside looks like now.

When we were there, I asked the waitress about the liquor license, and she said "maybe two months," but I'm sure she was guessing.

Hammond

You can go into any mexican grocery store in my neighborhood (a couple blocks away from Fonda) and purchase ceviche for $3.00 a pound at the "deli" counter, (which is undoubtedly what most of these restuarants do) and then serve it at yuppie prices to the unsavvy consumer. I guess you pay for the atmosphere! But I'd skip this and go for something actually prepared at the place.

Fonda del Mar was good the first time I went, the second time was OK. My entree (the fish with bananna leaf) was dry and uninspired. My companion had the soup with corn (forgot the name) and verde sauce and it was great but too much flavor for an entree.

I like the room; it has a lot of energy. It is noisy, not great for conversation. I liked the tables and the photography!

ingridg wrote:You can go into any mexican grocery store in my neighborhood (a couple blocks away from Fonda) and purchase ceviche for $3.00 a pound at the "deli" counter, (which is undoubtedly what most of these restuarants do) and then serve it at yuppie prices to the unsavvy consumer. I guess you pay for the atmosphere!

$3.00 a pound for a fresh fish ceviche is a remarkable price. My neighborhood Mexican food shopping is limited to Jimenez Bros. Where do you shop for this ceviche?

Hammond

We (me and griffin) headed over to Fonda del Mar for a late Friday lunch yesterday.

We can not confirm, but we think they have a new menu and their liquor license. There were margartias on the menu and several items listed above were not there (like the poblano corn soup). (BTW, there is no separate lunch menu -- just the dinner one served all day -- although they are closed from 3-5)

Both soups are now red-based, one with seafood and vegetables, and one just with seafood. The waiter said they took the corn soup off the menu but didn't know why since it was such a favorite! He said the closest thing to that on the current menu is the poblano sauce with the salmon. At any rate, we skipped the soup and went right to the entrees.

Chips and salsa were good. We detected the frito-like and salty taste of the El Milagro Mexican Kitchen style chips that come in a paper bag. The tomatillo salsa was also fine but not distinct.

I ordered the lamb chops in mole, and griffin got the scallops in tomatillo cream. No one has mentioned these. Are they new?



They were delicious. 5 large tender fresh scallops for $13? in a slightly sour tomatillo sauce. Done perfectly. The fried onions were crunchy and a wonderful foil for the sweet scallops and sour sauce. There were some shredded carrots and zucchini at the bottom of the pile as well. It all worked.

The lamb was also excellent. Asked for medium rare, they came a smidge overdone (no pink) but perhaps gained some gamey taste from the cooking (griffin had some theory about the fats being fully warmed or something). The mashed potatoes were an excellent accompaniment esp for the mole, and tortillas soaked up the rest of both sauces. The mole was deep and interesting with ancho and chocolate. Eaten before the tomatillo it had coffee-like complexity. After, the sweet notes really came out.

Entreees are now between $12 and 16 (the lamb being 16). The tasting menu is now $40. The fish of the day was grouper on Friday. Pork with fruit mole is still on the menu, and we will have to try that next time. Also on the agenda is to encourage them to reconsider the putting the poblano corn soup back on the menu!

For 2pm on a Friday, there were 3-4 other tables with what looked like locals. One potential foodie/LTH type came in as we were leaving. Not bad for a Friday afternoon. Service was excellent as you might expect, as was the food. Also, being there at lunch meant we avoided not only crowds but also loud music!

Can't report how they may be faring during crunch times of fri and sat night, but our visit was delightful. If they are off the metromix radar, its time to go back!

My "theory" mentioned above, which is not at all mine, is that much of the lamby taste (and gamey taste in game) is in the fat.
The leanness of loin chops is why they are the least lamby and why they are the most popular cut (many people want to think they are eating lamb without having to taste it). Our chops were about medium and had a more lamby taste than most loin chops I have had (but were still moist and tender).
Given that others in this thread have critiqued Fonda del Mar for using especially mild lamb, I noted that our experience may have been better, because the extra doneness melted more fat and brought out a stronger flavor.

Our lamb had enough flavor to stand up to the mole.
However, I agree with others that they really should offer their wonderful mole negro with chicken (and rabbit?) as well. Given that the sauces are added to these dishes after the meat is cooked, I don't see why more places don't make a point of offering any sauce with any meat. Their sole chicken dish was a breast (my least favorite part) in a guajillo-peanut sauce.

griffin wrote:My "theory" mentioned above, which is not at all mine, is that much of the lamby taste (and gamey taste in game) is in the fat.

I agree with this theory, based on an experience I had the other night. I made some lamb chops and one came adorned with a big piece of fat. I normally might've cut that off, but I decided to just dig in and eat it. I was immediately struck by the intensity of the lamb flavor in the fat. Although I think you are the one who had the true eureka moment regarding the connection between cooking time and flavor, and the melting fat mechanism tying them together. Next time, I'll order the lambchops medium rather than medium rare, to melt some more of that flavorful fat.

what looked like locals. One potential foodie/LTH type came in as we were leaving

How could you tell the difference?

borismom wrote:

what looked like locals. One potential foodie/LTH type came in as we were leaving

How could you tell the difference?

Usually, on men, the give-away is the goatee.

HI,

It's interesting these comments on gamey tasting lamb related to the fat. When I make leg of lamb, I usually follow the methods in From Julia Child's Kitchen. She has you trim the fat to about 1/8th inch, which is really quite a bit of trimming. It is also thin enough layer to be pretty much melted by the time you finish roasting. She suggests cooking it rare to medium rare taking about 75 minutes to cook plus a rest.

I have come to really like my lamb cooked rare to medium rare, anything beyond that is overcooked. On something smaller I might try what you are suggesting cooking a bit longer. Though I wonder with Julia's method of trimming the fat so thin it is guaranteed to melt entirely perhaps satisfies your idea of gamey lamb.

I will admit my childhood memories of my Oma's mutton stew was more repulsing than attractive in my recollection. I still wonder if I might like mutton tried contemporaneously.

Regards,

After its initial LTH-buzz Fonda del Mar had quieted down a bit when my friend Wyatt, who lives a walkable distance away, reported that he'd been a couple of times recently and thought the place was really firing on all cylinders these days. (Though I doubt he used that archaic phrase precisely.)

Having been twice now in the last two weeks, I have to say that I agree. What was a promising, but only about half successful (in retrospect, I may have been slightly kind) Mexican seafood restaurant four months ago seems to me to be one of the best modest-priced options in town-- and easily the best deal in higher-end Mexican these days, certainly much preferable to the warmed-over Ixcapuzalco (sad to say).



I notice that above, David H. had said that FdM's fish taco was no match for the late Tacos del Pacifico's. Well, as that fades into memory, I can't really evaluate them head to head, but this sure seems close, and certainly the best one I've had anywhere in Chicago since then.



We also had the trio de ceviches. The shrimp one I still thought too ketchupy, much as it had been several months back. However, the fish one-- simple and decorated with an intriguingly spiced salsa-- and the smoky crab one were both excellent.



Cochinita de pibil, pork slow-roasted in achiote, is one of those things I keep ordering just because I had it in Mexico and so I feel like I know how it's supposed to taste. Thus, for instance, at Fonda San Miguel in Austin, I could observe with confidence that it was roasted properly but far too bland. This, by contrast, was extremely bright and sharp with the achiote and other spices, really terrific, especially rolled up in one of their freshly-made tortillas.



One of the disappointments the first time at FdM when it first opened was that the fish dishes weren't all that great-- competent but little more-- and were blown away by the lamb in mole. I have now had this dish, the pescado in crema poblano with its little Chichen Itza of rice, twice with two different fish-- once skate and once that pseudo-grouper that comes from Uganda, whatever it's called (I want to say "West Nile Grouper"), and both times it was excellent. The buttery, slightly hot and olive-like cream sauce and the freshly pan-fried fish are a great combination.

These pictures are all from today's lunch; the only notable different things we had at dinner a couple of weeks ago were chicken mole (fairly good, but a bland chicken breast sliced and fanned rather than a more flavorful chicken on the bone), and some little torpedo-shaped fried shrimp empanadas which were fairly forgettable. Today's lunch, however, was first-rate on every level, and if you haven't been back since the early days, you should.

Incidentally, we didn't sit out there today but it also has a back patio under a tent that looks like it would be pleasant-- and expands capacity significantly on a Friday night.