I know some here are implying it's unreasonable to expect a new place to be running like a well-oiled machine, but is it really?

Yes.

It's not like this is unique to restaurants. When Microsoft comes out with a new operating system, it's full of bugs and problems that have to be worked out with updates. Like someone else noted, I sure wouldn't want someone to overwhelm me with a big project and deadline my first week at a new job. And yet, when I take a new job, the company still pays me until I get the hang of things.

Sure, if I continue to fall short after a while, that company should be disappointed and start thinking about dumping me, but it would be unreasonable for them to expect me to be full speed in the first couple weeks.

I still think takeout sounds like a mistake for these folks early on. As someone who runs a restaurant with takeout one day a week, I know how much it can quickly overwhelm both the kitchen and the staff.

Think about it. Coal Fire has what -- 30-40 seats? Maybe 10 tables. Even if they're half full, it only takes 5 takeout orders to make them essentially entirely full. If they're full, then 5 takeout orders puts them at 150% of capacity.

It's fair to make note of early service problems and food problems, but not without adding appropriate context, imo, such as distinguishing between problems that can easily be worked out and problems of conception. Service problems are obviously things to be worked out as a team gets used to working together and gets used to how many people will come in, how much staff they need, etc.

I'm looking at this from a different perspective-- LTHForum's. Right now it's nice that we're known for enthusiastically embracing really good new places. But the more we grow, the more we have the power to swamp a place two days after it opens, wiping out the usual learning curve that comes with gradually increasing business in the first few weeks. If we then follow that by ripping into every new place that doesn't have its act together perfectly the first week, for the whole world to read, and holding permanent grudges based on something that went wrong on day 3, then people aren't going to be happy to get LTHForum attention-- they're going to dread it.

I'm not saying people shouldn't report what they honestly experienced, but I think perspective and realism say that visiting a place when it's just getting started means accepting the likelihood of some bumps along the way, or even a big flaming screwup; that's the price of being the first on your block to try it.

What is standard operating procedure in the days before a restaurant opens, as it prepares to welcome customers? Do they have dry runs? Do they have "by invitation only" free dinners for friends and family?

I'd say all these things are common, and probably pretty close to universal at the higher end, but I'm sure a lot of smaller places just open after little or none of this, and just count on many slow days early on-- or get them whether they were expecting them or not.

ronnie_suburban wrote:The nice thing about selling pizzas is that no single customer is going to make or break you. Piss off a few naive folks at the beginning and it's very unlikely to affect your business, long-term.

I found 98% of what you wrote useful and helpful, ronnie, but I don't know that it's necessary (or useful or helpful) to use a pejorative to describe the people to whom baseline operational sanity is a requirement, however long a place has been open. There are those who are willing to cut a place lots of slack because of its newness (especially if the food is great), and there are those who can't enjoy food (no matter how great) in an atmosphere of chaos. Neither of those two groups is wrong. Only one of them belongs in Coal Fire this week, but neither of those two groups is wrong, or more naive than the other, or more discerning than the other.

Mike G wrote:I'm looking at this from a different perspective-- LTHForum's. Right now it's nice that we're known for enthusiastically embracing really good new places. But the more we grow, the more we have the power to swamp a place two days after it opens, wiping out the usual learning curve that comes with gradually increasing business in the first few weeks. If we then follow that by ripping into every new place that doesn't have its act together perfectly the first week, for the whole world to read, and holding permanent grudges based on something that went wrong on day 3, then people aren't going to be happy to get LTHForum attention-- they're going to dread it.

I'm not saying people shouldn't report what they honestly experienced, but I think perspective and realism say that visiting a place when it's just getting started means accepting the likelihood of some bumps along the way, or even a big flaming screwup; that's the price of being the first on your block to try it.

This all makes great sense to me. Being a good LTH citizen means not snarking on a place that's just opened. I can sign on to that.

Mike G, that's a great synthesis. I was getting all ready to be disappointed this conversation was still going on, but instead... I feel like you've put the period down, end of sentence.

riddlemay wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:The nice thing about selling pizzas is that no single customer is going to make or break you. Piss off a few naive folks at the beginning and it's very unlikely to affect your business, long-term.

I found 98% of what you wrote useful and helpful, ronnie, but I don't know that it's necessary (or useful or helpful) to use a pejorative to describe the people to whom baseline operational sanity is a requirement, however long a place has been open. There are those who are willing to cut a place lots of slack because of its newness (especially if the food is great), and there are those who can't enjoy food (no matter how great) in an atmosphere of chaos. Neither of those two groups is wrong. Only one of them belongs in Coal House this week, but neither of those two groups is wrong, or more naive than the other, or more discerning than the other.

You're right. Such a belief is not necessarily naive. It just struck me as a bit wide-eyed from my curmudgeonly perspective.

We've all probably had at least a few experiences at new places that have been problem-free and they are, I suppose, a fair basis for comparison. Still, I consider such experiences to be the exception and not the rule. I'm a 'glass-half-empty' type of guy when it comes to new restaurants. I go into them assuming that things will be chaotic and usually end up surprised if they end up not being so. I am, apparently, so resigned to this belief, that it affects my opinion of anyone who doesn't share it.

I'm sorry to be so pissy . . . no further comments (aka noise) from me on this thread until I've tried the place out.

=R=

IMHO, it really is not our posts that will make or break a place; it is about the thought put into the game plan of a project, which entails serious commitment on the part of the owners. Yes, some posts indicate that we should cut some slack to a new business. I think that if you are paying $15 for a small pizza that you should expect to get your money’s worth.

A new business owner might have an adjustment period to understand how to perfect his trade. In many professions there are places you can go to get discounted services from those learning their trade. You can get your hair done, a massage, or your teeth cleaned by those learning the profession. You will be charged half price, and, most likely, get a pretty decent service, as these interns are under the supervision of professionals, who are there to advise, and mentor them.

I really think if you are ready to open and charge full price for your product, then you are fully accountable for what transpires next.

In all walks of life, there are people out there that are just haphazardly throwing their hats into the ring with no real commitment, and those really reaching hard for the brass ring. I think it is up to the owner to show which they are. Let’s hope Coal Fire rises to the challenge.

Despite the problems, I was really looking forward to trying it out tonight.

At 9:00pm when I arrived, there was a sign on the door saying, "Sorry. All out of dough. See you Tuesday."

Oy.

At 9:00pm when I arrived, there was a sign on the door saying, "Sorry. All out of dough. See you Tuesday."

See also: The Smoque Out-Of-Meat Effect.

Olde School wrote:Despite the problems, I was really looking forward to trying it out tonight.

At 9:00pm when I arrived, there was a sign on the door saying, "Sorry. All out of dough. See you Tuesday."

Oy.

They only made enough dough to fire 45 pies tonight.

With it being a holiday, they were betting on moderate traffic, at best.

E.M.

I think the people who had negative service-related experiences at Coal Fire are not saying don't go, and are not holding a (permanent) grudge themselves.

The choices aren't just "well-oiled machine right out the gate" or "usual new restaurant kinks on day 3." Coal Fire seems to be in the "(possibly way) more than the usual new restaurant kinks" area. And using LTHforum to get that info seems like exactly the sort of thing the site should be about.

No complaints yet about the food, just serious issues with actually being able to obtain the food at this point during non-early, non-peak hours (again with the caveat that I don't even think they were slammed last Thursday when we clearly saw things getting chaotic in a hurry).

Seems to me the best strategy is go as early as possible if you want Coal Fire in the immediate future. And I now know that thanks to all the reports on this thread.

In other words, I'd say the site is working exactly as it should with regards to this new pizzeria.

I really want to try this place, and I'm glad to know about the problems I may face ahead of time. Whether or not they will eventually be fixed, the fact that so many posted about them tells me I will likely run into the same thing if I go any time soon. If people had chosen to only focus on the positive, I would have been unprepared for a negative customer service experience going in.

I don't think we should tell others not to post about their negative experiences. As the problems get fixed over time, we will no doubt see that reflected in the posts as well.

The people posting negatively about coal fire's customer service seemed like they just wanted to share their honest feelings about how they were treated at this new restaurant. That's what this board is for, right? References to lthforum as a single unit with one image, purpose, or goal seem odd to me.

After seeing Chicago Station’s pic of Coal Fire Pizza’s sausage pie and reading JeffB’s above comment “Chicago sausage on a Totonno's looking pie? Guess I picked the wrong day to give up pizza.”, I couldn’t help myself and look at photos side by side of Totonno’s and Coal Pizza:

Coal Fire Pizza's Sausage


Totonno’s Margharita


Although the pies have their notable differences, I found myself enjoying Coal Fire’s pie in much the same homey way as I do at Totonno’s. The classic thick “lip” found on both these pizzas is the real highlight for me.

I wasn’t totally enamored with their cheeses, especially their fresh mozzarella which I found flat and downright boring. Coal Fire uses Bari sausage, consciously trying to stay loyal to the neighborhood cause which is a substantial improvement over anything I’ve ever ingested on the East Coast (Besides Nick’s!!). At first, I thought the tomato sauce (Stanislaus tomatoes from California, I believe) too insipid, not really adding much dimension to the pizza. However, with each successive bite, its natural sweetness and beauty came out brilliantly.
But the real star of Coal Fire’s pies is its bread. Damn, I just love this stuff! The crust is airy and well blistered, bubbles galore, and with absolutely beautiful pliancy and chew. Most important of all, it has wonderful flavor.

Like so many of the great East Coast pizzerias, the importance of proportion with regard to ingredient usage is of paramount importance. Many Chicagoans struggle with East Coast and classic Neapolitan pie’s judicious use of ingredients since, historically, most Chicago pizzerias are much more liberal with the quantities of their toppings.

The quality of Coal Fire’s overall ingredients appears to be marginally below many top pizzerias around the country (the obvious exception being the sausage), but the enjoyability of their pizza doesn’t suffer, largely because the excellent bread is accented, not overwhelmed by the toppings. Unlike so many serious Eastern Coast pizzerias, which use sugar and/or oil in their dough (both are often used as a preservative for the dough as well as accelerating rising times. Sugar is often times added for color. They were not employed in most dough recipes until sometime in the 50's.), Jay sticks simply with standard King Arthur all- purpose flour, water, salt, and yeast.

This is honest pizza; a beautiful hybrid between traditional Neapolitan, NY Neapolitan, and Chicago bar pizza. This pizza excels without being overly loyal to any particular school of pizza making. Pizza with a soul like this goes a long, long way. As Alex Delarge says in “A Clockwork Orange”, this pizza gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling “all through me gulliwuts.”

It’s amazing how good Jay is already after just a few days as a professional pizza maker. One has to wonder what heights he’ll reach in the foreseeable future.


I believe Coal Fire Pizza will become my go-to place.

White Pie at Coal Fire Pizza

In a way, LTH could be helping any chaos that may exist from growing. I agree that the initial "LTH effect" may be alive and well, but there is another side to it.

For example, I was ready to go down there last night, but after reading the whole thread I decided to wait a little while to allow them to fix whatever needs fixing. If I just can't wait any longer based on those pictures of great looking pies, I will at least know to go at off-peak times. This helps both me and them.

Had I not read this thread (and had not honest reports been contained therein) I would have probably showed up, and if I had an experience like some mentioned earlier, I would have either come here and shared my experience or at least mentioned it to friends if asked about Coal Fire. While I expect new places charging full price to deliver the full amount of service and quality, I am willing to cut the place some slack if they are up-front about their initial limitations (especially because the product looks so great). And I am also willing to cut them slack by not joining in the initial "swamping" based on honest reports of other LTHForum members.

So really, at least in my case, LTH prevented another "negative" post and instead contributed in a small way to reducing any chaos that my takeout order of a few pies would have contributed to on a Sunday where it was reported that they only prepared dough for 45 pies.

I don't think we should tell others not to post about their negative experiences.

And no one has.

Coal Fire seems to be in the "(possibly way) more than the usual new restaurant kinks" area.

Or, in the "(possibly) blown out of proportion on the internet" area. Even if an original poster's anger is appropriate and just, by the time five people have commented on it, it is often wildly exaggerated.

All I'm saying is, perspective. Yeah, a $15 pizza is pricey for a pizza, slightly, but it's still not a meal at Trotter's. I'm not AT ALL saying anyone should not report what happened, I'm not AT ALL saying we need a group opinion, just that I don't see-- and this is another opinion, that's all-- getting all medieval on them for what's been reported.

JamPhil wrote:Seems to me the best strategy is go as early as possible if you want Coal Fire in the immediate future. And I now know that thanks to all the reports on this thread. In other words, I'd say the site is working exactly as it should with regards to this new pizzeria.

bnowell724 wrote:The people posting negatively about coal fire's customer service seemed like they just wanted to share their honest feelings about how they were treated at this new restaurant. That's what this board is for, right? References to lthforum as a single unit with one image, purpose, or goal seem odd to me.

I'm persuaded by Mike G's point (to oversimplify) that LTH ought to be a force for good, not evil, in the Chicago restaurant world. But now I'm also persuaded that honest reporting of the good, the bad and the awful--even in a place less than a week old--is exactly how LTH works as a force for good. If our existence causes a restaurateur to say to himself, for instance, "You know, I damn well better make sure all my ducks are in a row before I open, because if they're not, the LTHers are going to know and make it known," and if this causes that restaurateur to get all his ducks in a row before he opens, that's a good thing, no? This is the synthesis between the two viewpoints, I think.

So (where I come out), honesty, even brutal honesty, even brutal honesty fired by anger, yes. Snark, no.

I guess I just don't get angry for $15.

Now the $25 ticket I got yesterday because my car alarm went off when we weren't home... that's angry!

P.S. Nice report PIGMON!

PIGMON wrote:I believe Coal Fire Pizza will become my go-to place.

I've just returned from an extended vacation and just read this whole thread. PIGMON, all I really needed to read was your quote above.

High praise indeed.

Best,
Michael

PIGMON wrote:I believe Coal Fire Pizza will become my go-to place.

eatchicago wrote:I've just returned from an extended vacation and just read this whole thread. PIGMON, all I really needed to read was your quote above.

High praise indeed.

Michael,

Yes, absolutly.

I've only been once but, as I mentioned upthread, I have my next Coal Fire pie planned out. I'm thinking Wed or Thurs earlyish, care to join me?

Enjoy,
Gary

"I guess I just don't get angry for $15. "

How about for $2 then?

Mike G wrote:McGriddles were invented by Satan in the executive kitchens on the seventh level of Hell.

Mike G wrote:And the dining area has a lovely view of the second bolgia in the eighth circle.

Talk about someone going medieval . . .

Mike G wrote:$25 ticket I got yesterday because my car alarm went off when we weren't home...

Now if they can just start
issuing them wrapped around
a hard-tossed brick...

J (who is a friend of mine, full disclosure) says that they were absolutely surprised/overwhelmed by the instantaneous crowds Coalfire got literally from the first moment they opened, and is amazed at the role that the internets have played in getting that business. Also, they'd had so many bumps in the road to opening that he barely had any money at all to pay staff, but now he is getting someone to play "quarterback" in the kitchen so that pizzas should come out much faster and things in general will run more smoothly. He is also going to double (at least) the amount of dough that he prepares, so he shouldn't run out of pizzas!

For those interested in the technical details, the oven is now running mostly on larger chunks of coal that allow air to pass between them, instead of the smaller bits of anthracite that packed too closely for good burning.

Anyone need a ton of anthracite??

I'm not going to pile on. Promise. But for pity's sake, is it really that difficult or costly to prepare more dough? I understand why Smoque (and other BBQ places) will only prepare a certain amount of meat product, and when they're out, they're out. It's quite nearly impossible to gauge demand, and no pitmaster/business owner wants to be left with excess that will not be saleable the next day.

But pizza dough?

I must be missing something.

The next time I go, I will cut them all the slack in the world. I know they are brand new, are working out the kinks, and trying to better the system. I will not be pissed if it takes too long or if they get something wrong with the order or if everything is a discombobulated mess.

But I really would like to try their pizza--in whatever form it comes out in.
That will be difficult if they don't have dough, and on that score I would cut them no slack at all.

My plan is to go Wednesday at 6 pm with a bottle of red. Stop by and say hello if you're there.

I had to weigh in on this discussion about posting negative reviews of a new restaurant. While some may consider them negative, I consider them honest. I don't feel anyone should censor themselves because a restaurant is new. This information could be helpful and if the restaurant is good, hardly harmful. I have to say I feel that people are making this argument because they loved the restaurant and don't want any negating comments on this board. I don't see the logic in not being honest here. It seems that when there is descension amongst certain people, then all of the sudden we can't post certain things. I feel if the restaurant's food had not be loved by the regulars of this board, we would have been encouraged to post our honest review. I have never heard of a restaurant reviewer leaving out negative comments on a new restaurant. And I guarantee several food critics get as many readers as LTH. While LTH can be far reaching, I just don't believe it has the ability to shut a good restaurant down because some people posted that they had bad service. I have every intention of visiting the restaurant, but now because people had to wait an hour for a pizza, I'll go at a less busy time, which could be helpful to the place.

Olde School wrote:But for pity's sake, is it really that difficult or costly to prepare more dough?

I think that's a valid question, and my guess would be that, yes, it is more costly.

You have to consider the fact that restaurants operate under razor-thin margins, especially right after they open, and when they're not selling booze.

So, planning becomes a huge issue. If you have to throw away dough for 10 pies that didn't sell, well, you didn't only lose the cost of the flour (which isn't all that cheap), but you lost the profit from those 10 pies.

It's very hard to judge how much will sell on a particular day, and the goal is to cut the waste as much as possible.

Best,
Michael

Olde School wrote:
But pizza dough?

I must be missing something.

Yes, you are missing something. A great crust is not just some water, flour, yeast and salt that is mixed and allowed to rise. The very best crusts are made with great care and attention to detail. From what posters such as GWiv and PIGMON have written, this place must put a lot of effort into getting the dough right. That is much harder than you think. Minor changes to fermentation/proofing schedules can have a dramatic effect on the texture and flavor of the final crust. I don't know how it is done at this particular pizzeria, but doughs are often prepared one or more days in advance. You could argue that they could make enough dough to meet the worst-case scenario and that the cost to dump the excess at the end of service isn't much. But they may have other limitations, such as limited room in whatever chamber they use for fermentation/proofing.

Bill/SFNM

Went here yesterday, and I have no problem saying that this is some of the best, if not THE best pizza in the city. The sausage was phenomenal, and the staff...while a bit slow and unorganized, was extremely friendly and accommodating. When we had to remind them to bring water to our table, they looked genuinely upset that they forgotten it. Honestly though, their sausage was probably some of the best I have ever had, they use excellent fresh cheeses, and our pie's were cooked consistently right. Sure it's a bit chaotic inside, but the food is absolutely worth it, and considering how much the owner and the rest of the staff cared about each table, I never felt "neglected" or "forgotten" in any way. Please...go...now...

Taconelli's is a coal-oven pizza place in Philadelphia (one of my very favorites). Their policy strongly advises you to call well ahead on the day you intend to dine to reserve your dough. I never attempted to just walk in, but I imagine you'd be turned away 99% of the time if you tried. If you called after noon or 1pm, there was a good likelihood all of that day's dough would be spoken for.

sarcon wrote:Their policy strongly advises you to call well ahead on the day you intend to dine to reserve your dough. I never attempted to just walk in, but I imagine you'd be turned away 99% of the time if you tried. If you called after noon or 1pm, there was a good likelihood all of that day's dough would be spoken for.

I can't wait to try Coal Fire Pizza. From the looks and sound of things, they have a pretty good version of a NYCish pie that will still satisfy us Chicago pizza lovers.

If the long lines and long waits continue past the break-in/trendoid lemming stage, I can see a black market being creted that trades in pizza dough futures.

I wasn’t totally enamored with their cheeses, especially their fresh mozzarella which I found flat and downright boring. Coal Fire uses Bari sausage, consciously trying to stay loyal to the neighborhood cause which is a substantial improvement over anything I’ve ever ingested on the East Coast (Besides Nick’s!!). At first, I thought the tomato sauce (Stanislaus tomatoes from California, I believe) too insipid, not really adding much dimension to the pizza. However, with each successive bite, its natural sweetness and beauty came out brilliantly.

But the real star of Coal Fire’s pies is its bread. Damn, I just love this stuff! The crust is airy and well blistered, bubbles galore, and with absolutely beautiful pliancy and chew. Most important of all, it has wonderful flavor.

I agree on the cheese. It really is blah for fresh mozz. The difference between what they're using and what Patsy's or Grimaldi's is using is night and day. If they're going to use a bland cheese like that, they need to use more and more varied cheeses like you get a DiFara's, imo.

I think the crust needs work, too, though, to make it an A pizza, rather than just a B+ pizza. There wasn't the crackle and crispness that it should get, nor as much chew and stretch. The edges could bubble more than mine did as well. But mainly, I think it needs more flavor and complexity, especially tanginess. It's a big step up from most pizza doughs, but still shy of the best.

I don't know how it is done at this particular pizzeria, but doughs are often prepared one or more days in advance.

They do a 24 hour retard. I asked. They may end up trying to go longer to get some more flavor. Personally, I think they should just use a poolish or starter.

Bread's cost is never about the ingredients. (Or rarely is.) It's about the labor involved. We don't know how big their mixer is, how much space they have, how much they do by hand, etc. It could be a big pain in the ass and a lot of time to scale up dough beyond a certain point.

You have to consider the fact that restaurants operate under razor-thin margins, especially right after they open, and when they're not selling booze.

I was worried for you guys that they said they're pretty much out of cash and couldn't even pay the staff. If they're that under-capitalized, this could be a short run even though they're very good....

So (where I come out), honesty, even brutal honesty, even brutal honesty fired by anger, yes.

Be honest, yes, but also be fair. It's about emphasis and context. You can make too much of something so that a problem that is likely temporary gets all the attention and umph. Service problems early on at a restaurant should largely be an aside. They certainly shouldn't be the focus of a post. It throws things out of proportion and probably gives a less accurate picture of what to expect from the place going forward rather than just be an perspective-ridden historical account of that day.

btw, if anyone wants to check out an interesting discussion on artisan pizza making, you should check out this:

http://portlandfood.org/index.php?showforum=15

Especially the roundtable discussion at the top.[/quote]

btw, you guys are really showing your Chicago stripes by all this sausage ordering. At least it's not as bad as a Californian wanting to establish a benchmark with ham and pineapple.