David Hammond wrote:* Leaving Moto, ReneG mentioned that he thought we might organize a catsup tasting as he believes he has found the "best catsup." This is quite a claim, and ReneG is one whose opinions are to be taken seriously. Suggestions for entrants, media for consumption?

As someone biased against the range of condiments, I humbly bow out, unless you need a control member to point out how much better the burgers and fries taste naked.

In the meantime, I've posted a first draft of my Moto review on a site where a few friends can see it and give me feedback -- once I learn whether there are any questions I need to answer or other issues, I'll post it here. I'm very happy with some of the pictures but have to give up on this idea that my camera's white balance correction will ever work properly.

I will say that in general, the salt levels didn't bother me, though the veggie eggs definitely had higher levels than most other dishes. The onion soup was the one I named when jazzfood asked about our favorite courses, and it remains so in memory.

gleam wrote:Of course, cooks illustrated and jeffery steingarten both did ketchup tastings and, surprise surprise, heinz won. Truly, though, I think this is because heinz is so ingrained in the palate of america as what ketchup SHOULD be that it's likely impossible to give anything else a fair shake.

Apparently, commercial ketchup/catsup as we know it has a slightly burned flavor component present. Tomatoes being high in sugar would scorch while being reduced for ketchup. One firm found a process where they could make ketchup without scroching. It failed miserably because nobody enjoyed with "off taste" caused by the absence of scorching.

Sometime ago, I made ketchup. If I cannot find a jar, I think it is used up, then I will make a small batch for this noble effort.

To bone up for this project, suggested reading is Andy Smith's Pure Ketchup: A History of America's National Condiment With Recipes.

Bob S. wrote:As someone biased against the range of condiments, I humbly bow out, unless you need a control member to point out how much better the burgers and fries taste naked.

I don't mean to re-open the catsup controversy, but do you really feel that most condiments are detrimental to taste? Mustards? Picalilly? Chow-chow? Is it because you feel that many condiments are somewhat crudely seasoned and designed to appeal to mass tastes?

Hammond

Condiments should enhance,not cover up the food.I do like that scorched ketchup taste.Last night I cooked tukey meatballs which I mixed into the meat spices and ketchup.After they were done cooking I scraped out as much of the cooked bits from the pan just to eat alone.

hattyn wrote:Condiments should enhance,not cover up the food.

Generally, of course that's true. But it's tough to say "should" about any food, don't you think? I mean, Special Forces used to carry small bottles of Tabasco to splash on any kind of rotten crap they had to eat in-country. The idea was definitely to "cover up" the "food."

Hammond

hattyn wrote:Condiments should enhance,not cover up the food.I do like that scorched ketchup taste.Last night I cooked tukey meatballs which I mixed into the meat spices and ketchup.After they were done cooking I scraped out as much of the cooked bits from the pan just to eat alone.

I do not think that is true at all (I respectfully say). Condiments are food. It is just that condiments happen to be more intense in flavor than other "food", causing us to generally need less per dish. Most of the things we eat as "condiments", we eat because we enjoy foremost, the flavors and tastes of the condiment. Most of the time, (I think) "food" serves as an excuse to eat condiments, not the other way around. Sure, there are many items that are enhanced by condiments or just do not taste right without the condiment. I think a hot dog tastes almost gross without mustard. Still, I think condiments, for the most part, are ways to ramp up plainer or blander dishes.

For instance, there are many dishes that exist simply as a vehicle for condiment. Pot au feau is all about the condiments as is the Italian bollito misto. A lot of Chinese soup noodles are just excuses for consuming chile oil. And, obviously for many, french fries are an excuse for ketchup.

As someone else around here sez,

Enjoy!

Rob

IIRC there is a phrase about an army marching on its stomach.So don't feed them crap that needs to be masked.All I meant by enhancement is whatever the condiment is served with or on should be of good quality. So the condiment is there as a compliment.You all are making me think too much.

VI, I agree with the point, though I can't agree that a proper bollito misto is a vehicle for mostarda and salsa verde any more than corned beef is a vehicle for mustard or churrasco is a vehicle for chimichuri.

But speaking of the alchemy between condiments and produce (as well as ketchup), I'd say the only thing of value I ever learned from Iron Chef is the Chinese chef's ace-in-the hole "chili prawns" (always noted to be his father's famous recipe, which IC Chinese adapts shamelessly to every shellfish and beyond; it's always the panel favorite despite its overuse). A super-hot pan, lots of garlic, lots of chile paste and lots of ketchup mix with the shrimp liquor/shells to produce a whole that is much more than its parts. And nothing could be simpler.

It's interesting that he (and many other Chinese chefs on TV) uses Heinz. Here you have Chinese chefs using an essentially Chinese ingredient, but choosing a brand from a German-American company. It just bolsters what we knew already about the quality and taste of Heinz and in some ways dispells the notion that we like it because we were raised on it.

It's a chicken-or-egg problem: does the product dominate because it's unique and better tasting or because it has better marketing and a long history, or both. Coke and Hellman's/Best's strike me as other examples for which the answer seems to be "both."

hattyn wrote:IIRC there is a phrase about an army marching on its stomach.So don't feed them crap that needs to be masked.All I meant by enhancement is whatever the condiment is served with or on should be of good quality. So the condiment is there as a compliment.You all are making me think too much.

hattyn, I was not suggesting serving anyone crap. What I meant was that sometimes, in the jungle for instance, you are compelled to eat stuff that would make civilians barf (take it from me, I've seen a lot of army movies so I ought to know).

VI, your position is that food is actually sometimes a medium for condiment, and I have to admit, I've got a huge jar of kimchee that I'm going to eat once I'm done fasting...and I'll probably have it on plain white bread which is simply a bland platform for the much more interesting condiment.

Hammond

JeffB wrote:VI, I agree with the point, though I can't agree that a proper bollito misto is a vehicle for mostarda and salsa verde any more than corned beef is a vehicle for mustard or churrasco is a vehicle for chimichuri.

I agree about corned beef, churrasco, etc. I was just offering a few examples. There are obviously tons of examples of things to be eaten FOR the condiment.

David Hammond wrote:

Bob S. wrote:As someone biased against the range of condiments, I humbly bow out, unless you need a control member to point out how much better the burgers and fries taste naked.

I don't mean to re-open the catsup controversy, but do you really feel that most condiments are detrimental to taste? Mustards? Picalilly? Chow-chow? Is it because you feel that many condiments are somewhat crudely seasoned and designed to appeal to mass tastes?

Hammond

I do feel that, but the reason is much simpler: We never had condiments around the house when I was a kid, so I learned to enjoy food without them. (My father in particular, 100% Polish, believed firmly in the then-entrenched European imperative that dishes were meant to be eaten as they arrived from the kitchen, with only an adjustment of salt, after proper tasting first.) I wouldn't deny them to anyone else. (And truth be told, now that most places have to overcook burgers etc., I will put a little mayo on those, just because it's the blandest way to add back a little moisture to the leather on the bun while preserving a little of whatever meat flavor remains. Butter also serves, especially at diners in Wisconsin.)

Is there any way for moderators to create a condiments thread out of these posts, to keep the Moto thread a little cleaner?

Bob S. wrote:Is there any way for moderators to create a condiments thread out of these posts, to keep the Moto thread a little cleaner?

Bobs,

Actually, we discussed separating the earlier Moto/Pluton posts, but decided that they belonged together. Personally, I like the way conversations evolve and am not sure that condiments would merit its own thread (not, at least, before the castsup tasting, which is in the works!).

Also, it seems like the Moto discussion is tapering off (unfortunately...I'd like to see it go on).

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:

Bob S. wrote:Is there any way for moderators to create a condiments thread out of these posts, to keep the Moto thread a little cleaner?

Bobs,

Actually, we discussed separating the earlier Moto/Pluton posts, but decided that they belonged together. Personally, I like the way conversations evolve and am not sure that condiments would merit its own thread (not, at least, before the castsup tasting, which is in the works!).

Also, it seems like the Moto discussion is tapering off (unfortunately...I'd like to see it go on).

Hammond

I s'pose the Moto thread will perk up a bit after we get more info on the dishes (hint-hint, I am at least interested in hearing more about what you ate)

Vital Information wrote:I s'pose the Moto thread will perk up a bit after we get more info on the dishes (hint-hint, I am at least interested in hearing more about what you ate)

Taking the hint over here, boss.

On the subject of sheer technical prowess, check out SteveZ

Vital Information wrote:I s'pose the Moto thread will perk up a bit after we get more info on the dishes (hint-hint, I am at least interested in hearing more about what you ate)

I echo VI. I would love to hear a few more descriptions of some of these dishes. Especially, the decon-recon bouillabaisse, the sweet potato pie, and the oatmeal stout.

And what the heck is doughnut soup? Please don't tell me he pureed a krispy kreme.

Best,
Michael / EC

David Hammond wrote:

Bob S. wrote:Is there any way for moderators to create a condiments thread out of these posts, to keep the Moto thread a little cleaner?

Bobs,

Actually, we discussed separating the earlier Moto/Pluton posts, but decided that they belonged together. Personally, I like the way conversations evolve and am not sure that condiments would merit its own thread (not, at least, before the catsup tasting, which is in the works!).

Also, it seems like the Moto discussion is tapering off (unfortunately...I'd like to see it go on).

Hammond

Yeah, that occurred to me too. As I say, I'll have my own comments and photos up over the weekend, so at least I'll be putting my mouth where my money is, or something like that...

eatchicago wrote:And what the heck is doughnut soup? Please don't tell me he pureed a krispy kreme.

Ec, it was a medium-weight liquid that tasted exactly like a glazed doughnut. Not sure what else one can say about it. It was a marvel...but one of those things you'd probably want to have just once. As I think I've hinted before, none of the dishes are such that one would say, days or months later, "Man, I have a craving for...(fill in the blank with Duck Pull Apart, Sunchoke/Yuzu/Kalamansi, etc.). That is NOT a slam; this is just the kind of food you can eat once and "get the concept" (more or less).

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:

eatchicago wrote:And what the heck is doughnut soup? Please don't tell me he pureed a krispy kreme.

Ec, it was a medium-weight liquid that tasted exactly like a glazed doughnut. Not sure what else one can say about it. It was a marvel...but one of those things you'd probably want to have just once. As I think I've hinted before, none of the dishes are such that one would say, days or months later, "Man, I have a craving for...(fill in the blank with Duck Pull Apart, Sunchoke/Yuzu/Kalamansi, etc.). That is NOT a slam; this is just the kind of food you can eat once and "get the concept" (more or less).

Hammond

The thing is, and I KNOW this is both bizarre and unfair, but I keep on toying with the idea that one can "get the concept (more or less) without ever specifically eat at the place. Kinda like one can talk about the Sistine Chapel without ever visiting the VC.

Vital Information wrote:The thing is, and I KNOW this is both bizarre and unfair, but I keep on toying with the idea that one can "get the concept (more or less) without ever specifically eat at the place. Kinda like one can talk about the Sistine Chapel without ever visiting the VC.

I'm with you Rob. I backed out of this dinner when I heard the cost, and so far, I'm glad I did. The pictures are remarkable and I'm very impressed with what I've heard of Cantu's artistic and technological skill, but I still think I get the idea and I don't really need to be there.

In no way am I trying to disparage the memorable experience that everyone had there, and I'm sure that "the whole is more than the sum of it's parts", but nothing has convinced me that this type of experience is something I'm interested in.

I echo VI. I would love to hear a few more descriptions of some of these dishes. Especially, the decon-recon bouillabaisse, the sweet potato pie, and the oatmeal stout.

I have planned to write such a post, I'm just drowning in stuff to do this moment. If someone else does, well great, though I will do this over the weekend.

Regards,

nothing beats the real thing though. that would be like saying i don't need to go to venice or ny because i've been to vegas. or pisa may be nice but i've seen the leaning tower of niles and i get the picture.


maybe you did just have to have been there. the evening was memorable in so many ways, of which the food was a main component... but there was so much more, least of which is what it did in my head and to my reference points, that took it over the top for me. also experiencing it w/like minded souls that offered excellent insights all around the table. very stimulating.


i approached it skeptically, and i was rewarded many times in many ways for attending. a great evening. i'm glad i experienced it and believe it or not, it was worth it. @ least for me.

Did anyone mention this NY Times article on Moto yet?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/03/techn ... 3chef.html

I would just like to point out, apropos of the joke Erik made about giving Cantu an LTH calendar so he could eat it, that the calendar was printed on the same Canon printer as the Moto sushi-paper.

Best quote:

"We'll be the first restaurant on planet Earth to use a class IV laser to cook food," he said with a grin.

Unless, of course, Superman defeats you.

There is some truth in the comments of VI and eatchicago. Now three days later, there are only two dishes of the twenty that I would strongly desire to eat again: the skirt steak with its beet puree and the green curry with hearts of palm (another six were really distinguished). I contrast this with LTH's salt and pepper shrimp or Spoon's banana blossom salad, which I could eat once a week for, say, eternity.

However, it is precisely this that made it a meal where experiencing the food in situ was crucial. The technology can be viewed from afar with respect, amusement or skepticism. However, it is the wonder of the dishes that requires one's presence. The doughnut soup which did taste like a liquified cruller (or perhaps Krispy Kreme) was enjoyable for its flavor, but its flavor was that of a very good warm donut. It is the amazement of the "thing itself." This liquid was donut essence.

The sweet potato pie taste like a nice, well cooked sweet potato, but the fact that anyone one would deconstruct that potato - or want to - in order to create a chain - turning the most modern of cooks into a traditional Kentucky chain carver was astonishing.

Even when the flavors clashed as they did in the squash ice cream pellets with spices (chili?) that didn't match, one could see a culinary mind at work. Richard Serra in the kitchen. And that is an experience all too rare, even among those gifted chefs whose dishes are more exquisitely flavored.

What impressed me - and still impresses me - is the ability of Chef Cantu to control my emotions through the meal. (After the fact, I was struck by the fact, as someone mentioned, how few utensils we were given, only those that the chef wished us to use).

I would rather see twenty experiments of a mind in heat than a three course meal (or a 20 course one) by a mind coolly on auto-pilot. Chef Cantu is not a fully mature artist, yet, but that is the excitment of his work. I will be back in a year to see his changes, and again and again until he discovers his metier. Is this a young Careme or a future has-been? Don't know, but the ride will be worth taking.

Mike G wrote:Did anyone mention this NY Times article on Moto yet?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/03/techn ... 3chef.html

This week it's been quoted in Slashdot (tech news) and Engadget (gadget blog). I left a link to here at Engadget, but their comment system doesn't get a lot of traffic -- it isn't a discussion forum.

Mike G wrote:Did anyone mention this NY Times article on Moto yet?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/03/techn ... 3chef.html

This is actually the fourth time it's been cited (not counting the times, like this, where it gets another mention in a quote)--the third time in this thread plus once in the events thread! Ed also put a link to this discussion in his comments on the slashdot link to the article.

Mike G wrote:Did anyone mention this NY Times article on Moto yet?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/03/techn ... 3chef.html

I would just like to point out, apropos of the joke Erik made about giving Cantu an LTH calendar so he could eat it, that the calendar was printed on the same Canon printer as the Moto sushi-paper.

Best quote:

"We'll be the first restaurant on planet Earth to use a class IV laser to cook food," he said with a grin.

Unless, of course, Superman defeats you.

Mike,

FYI I presented a calendar to Chef Cantu. Unfortunately, he didn't seem all that eager to eat it, but did make a comment later in the evening about already planning an outing based on some of the pictures.

GAF wrote:Even when the flavors clashed as they did in the squash ice cream pellets with spices (chili?) that didn't match, one could see a culinary mind at work. Richard Serra in the kitchen.

The powder on the "squash" ice cream, according to the server, was pumpernickel bread (and, as Matthew noted, the particular kind of squash in this case was pumpkin). This to my mind created a much more successful dish than the sweet potato "pie," which had no reference to a baked good. More in my comments later, but having already used de gustibus already recently to defend my lack of taste, I'll pull it out here as well to say this course made me very happy.

i agree on the pie. sweet potato, yes. pie, no. i'd hate to be prepping them though, even though i love m c escher. either needs another name or another taste profile to bring it in line. one or the other.


i must say though, i think us dissecting it (sorry skinner) in minutia kind of misses the point of the overall experience.

jazzfood wrote:i must say though, i think us dissecting it (sorry skinner) in minutia kind of misses the point of the overall experience.

jazzfood,

I'm not sure how else to do talk about the experience. Many of us have addressed the overall tone and our generalized sensations, but all of these responses are ultimately anchored in the dishes themselves.

In college, like many others of my generation, we were taught to do "close readings" of literature, tight examinations of the text. The complaint was that dissecting a quatrain, for instance, was no way to talk about the experience of the whole sonnet. There's some truth to that, but how do you talk meaningfully about the whole without an examination of the parts?

I think that by discussing each dish from our different perspectives we can capture and present a sense of the whole, not neatly, not encyclopedically, but as clearly and completely as possible.

Hammond

david,


while i agree w/you and understand the logic, for me @ least, i prefer to let the evening stand as just that. based on my overall experiences and perception, it was a success for me. i know we're trying to describe it so others may vicariously enjoy, and perhaps that is the best way. maybe i'm just simple, or that in so doing, it reminds me of a particular ex of mine.


i mean come on, packing material - taboo? we're not talking cannibalism here. @ best, maybe whimsy w/a right turn @ interesting. some things can be over intellectualized. must be my a a d d kicking in. did you say something?



yours in feeding frenzy,


jazzfood