extramsg wrote:btw, you guys are really showing your Chicago stripes by all this sausage ordering.

Says the guy who ordered peperoni and basil at Vito and Nick's.

BillSFNM: I do know there are a number of factors which make the pizza dough-making process tricky--from the ambient air to the percentage of total dissolved solids in the water they use. So I buy your argument that it's not some slapdash process which can be done by rote.

But I'm not convinced this is a legitimate excuse for the lack of having a little more quantity.

If they had just made enough dough for, say, 10 more pizzas and I was the only one there beyond their capacity point and had ordered my three, what would have been the net cost of throwing away the quantity of dough for the seven remaining (after counting the incremental profit on my three)? Not much, and anyway I don't believe I would have been the only other order of the evening.

It strains credulity that they wouldn't have been in better shape had they prepared more--in terms of revenue, profit, and customer relations.

What a great thread -

Dough - How much dough probably isn't a cost concern for this owner, sounds like a time concern. Also could be a space concern for storage. Regardless just because it's cheap to produce you don't go out and make four batches "just in case".

This thread has scared me a bit as a restaurant operator. The idea of a "soft opening" is dead and gone. Our organization has always done soft openings. You tell your family, your friends, the rest is done by word of mouth. You take two weeks to work out all the kinks. With all the blogs, forums, etc. this just doesn't happen anymore.

I think the important thing for people to remember is that reading a thread is never a replacement for an actual visit to the restaurant. A few negative comments would never keep me from visiting a place. I live a block or two from Taos and have it on my places to go just because it's in my neighborhood. I know it's probably going to suck but I'll make my own judgement on that. This being said, I think negative comments are perfectly ok for reviewing new places as long as they're reasonable and honest.

As someone who made one of the negative reports, I'd just like to remind everyone that there has not been a single negative report about the actual food. In fact, all reports are that the pizza is definitely worth seeking out.

You just might want to be strategic in how you go about seeking it out.

Says the guy who ordered peperoni and basil at Vito and Nick's.

Touche. But at least I knew to order sausage. You just put me on the spot for a second pie.

This thread has scared me a bit as a restaurant operator. The idea of a "soft opening" is dead and gone. Our organization has always done soft openings. You tell your family, your friends, the rest is done by word of mouth. You take two weeks to work out all the kinks. With all the blogs, forums, etc. this just doesn't happen anymore.

A good point. We're worried about this. We've had a lot of newspaper and internet hype and expect to be very eagerly awaited when we open. I'm more worried about being overwhelmed and making a bad first impression, than I am not having enough customers.

The other restaurant in the hotel we'll be in just opened and they've been seating people by invite only the first two weeks and started with a limited menu. We're budgeting something similar. My partner wants to have a discount period, though I'm not inclined because then people get used to your lower prices and pissed when you raise them.

extramsg wrote:btw, you guys are really showing your Chicago stripes by all this sausage ordering.

Of course! This is Chicago and, after all, in Chicago pizza is sausage. I like a novelty pie as much as the next guy, but at least Coal Fired Pizza knows their market.

JamPhil wrote:there has not been a single negative report about the actual food.

can i be the first? undercooked center, lukewarm pies (2 out of 4). judicious topping? no, this was down right cheap - 8 slices of salami on entire pie. meh. give me my Noli's.

considering the wonderful fellowship i had while dining, i only dare pan because i know, in 7 day, there exists zero chance of me ever eating here again.

TonyC wrote:judicious topping? no, this was down right cheap - 8 slices of salami on entire pie. meh. give me my Noli's.

Judging from the pics I've seen at Spacca Napoli (not having eaten there) like this (bottom two):



It appears SN has a tendency to overtop their pies. So I see your complaint as a good thing.

TonyC wrote:

JamPhil wrote:there has not been a single negative report about the actual food.

can i be the first? undercooked center, lukewarm pies (2 out of 4). judicious topping? no, this was down right cheap - 8 slices of salami on entire pie. meh. give me my Noli's.

considering the wonderful fellowship i had while dining, i only dare pan because i know, in 7 day, there exists zero chance of me ever eating here again.

I just got my pie in, and all I can say is finally the pie I've been looking for is here in Chicago! My sausage & red pepper pizza was, if anything, a bit heavy on the toppings. Each eighth of a slice contained 4-6 pieces of hot Italian sausage. The crust was crispy well-browned outside, soft and chewy on the inside, and flavorful. The sauce actually tastes like tomatoes, imagine that! I've never been to Spacca Napoli, but I've been to Pizza D.O.C. a couple of times and have never been blown away by that place.

Coalfire serves an awesome pizza.

babaluch wrote:Do they make the white clam pizza as they do in Conn. It is a strange combo, but I loved it the few times that I have had it.

yippy!! can't wait to try... i was scanning this thread for hints of if they did this.

i currently have been going to Piece (new haven style pizza) quite often as of late for their white clam pizza. it's good most of the time, but sometimes it's a real miss...

i actually add bacon, ...clam + bacon = yum yum.

I know I should have expected as much, but I'm going to admit that I've been impressed by the passionate discussion about this new business, and it's menu - and about pizza. God help any one of us who is put under such a microscope, however - in the early days of life (as in the life of this restaurant).

Given the discussion thus far, how could I now walk into the eye of the storm tonight, not venture to Coalfire for dinner tonight? What kind of LTH foot-soldier would I be, if I shirked my responsibility? I did it for la causa!

Because I work Downtown, don't have a car and I live far north, I went for dinner after work, arriving at Coalfire about 5:30 p.m. I chose today for my first visit because it's the first work day of the week for the restaurant, and it had started to rain before I left the office - not much chance of running out of pizza dough or turn-away crowds, I thought. Going to dinner here was a late-afternoon decision and the several friends I called to invite to join me were otherwise occupied - so this was a solo journey.



I'd just walked through the door and stopped to get my bearings when a woman rushed up to me, handed me a menu and explained how to order; she asked if I was taking food out, or eating in. She accompanied me to a table by the window and advised she'd bring my food afte I ordered it.



It's a comfortable room; high ceilings, uncrowded layout, lots of light coming in the front windows; clean. Four diners sat at a table to my right, one woman at a table in front of me, and a table of two women in the distance; a couple of guys were waiting for take-out orders.



I decided to create my own pizza instead of opting for one of the house combinations. Mushroom, red onion and black olives - that was the selection.

There were as many employees as customers: a cashier, two guys making pizzas, a guy standing around watching and doing little else, and the owner who was the only person working the oven. Oh, don't forget the waitress - or whatever they call her. That's a lot of payroll.



The cashier brought me my pizza about 15/20 minutes after it was ordered; I estimate that there were three orders placed before mine (to give you a frame of reference about production times).



After I'd taken out my camera to capture the moment and was downing my first piece of the pie, a recently arrived diner got up from his table and walked across the restaurant and over to me and asked, "Are you an LTHer?" "I saw you taking pictures." It was "Olde School", who'd posted earlier in the discussion about getting to the restaurant door only to find there was no more pizza dough. We introduced ourselves and talked about this current discussion of Coalfire and pizza.



My first impression of the pizza was that it should have stayed in the oven a little longer; the crust was too soft and there wasn't enough of a char on the exposed/baked dough. It was light, though - and that was another noticeable thing. I wasn't impressed with my choice of toppings; they were okay, but I probably should have gone with the house suggestions this first time.

Another thing that stood out was the lingering after-taste, the cheese, maybe the sauce - it was pleasant and unexpected. I didn't bring wine or beer with me as I would typically do - so I was eating the pizza "raw", but with a few sips of Diet Coke; not much to interfere with the flavors/taste. After I left the restaurant the taste stayed with me for an hour; that's unusual (in my experience).

My pizza didn't seem to have much in the way of herbs/spices added to the topping or sauce - it wasn't bland tasting, but didn't have a noticeable/typical flavor; I don't know if I like that or not. There's a container of oregano on each table, pepper and salt, too and some red pepper flakes to add a "kick," for those in search of something more.





I checked-in on Olde School a couple of times; he ordered two pies (pictured above): a White Pizza and a Sausage. He offered me a sampling of his fare, but since I'd finished my own pie already, I declined the gracious offer. The White Pizza was a thing of beauty.

As I was sitting with Olde School talking pizza, and critiquing the restaurant operation - a young lady walked over and asked if we were from LTH (she'd seen me taking photos of Olde School's pies). She and her companion at dinner don't post here, but they read regularly - and they'd been following this discussion and decided to sample Coalfire. The four of us (the second young lady joined us) discussed the restaurant, pizza, Brooklyn-style vs. Bronx-style vs. what Chicago has to offer, etc., etc.

The women are from New York, and pronounced the Coalfire pizza "genuine" and "excellent." They're are well-traveled chowhounds and it was interesting for me to hear their comments, and the comments of another well-traveled - and egg salad sandwich sleuth - Olde School go back and forth critiquing pizzas - and restaurants in Chicago.

I'm no pizza expert, but what I ate I liked; a successful dining venture.

Even though I've visited just once, I have the strong sense there's some conflict - confusion - in the operation of the restaurant, a searching for it's identity. The owner may be trying to please too many people, instead of following his dream or personal preferences. The owner is at the back of the house with nobody seemingly in charge of the "front." The kitchen staff seemed inexperienced; on the job training, it seemed to me.

The potential for excellent food is clearly there (though, if the owner doesn't let other staff learn how to work the oven - is he going to man the place every day it's open?) and the walk up and order, then sit down style likely won't best serve the place.

I also get the sense the owner may not understands his or the restaurant's potential in that excellent location - and that the present design of the space will create conflicts between sit-down diners and people walking in and out - through the tables - to get to the back to order take-out and/or pick it up. This place could probably do a fantastic delivery business, if organized properly. But take-out and sit-down, in the environment as it exists there at the moment, and assuming business will grow in the near-term - won't work well together during peak hours, IMO.

There's probably room for another 20 people at tables - and experienced wait staff will need to be recruited if sit-down is what the focus will be. The woman working the tables today wasn't much of a waitress and seemed inexperienced - but she did have a nice personality/demeanor.

The man has sunk some real money into the restaurant, but to take it to the next level will, I think, require additional capital and staff or a partner who has that type of "next level" experience to establish efficient/financially successful operations.

I know we all wish Coalfire a successful and long life - turning out unique and high-quality pizza pies. Thanks to Olde School and the anonymous ladies - the “lurkers” for the conversation - and for the comments of others, here in this discussion . . . comments which prompted me to visit tonight.

Looks like they already rolled back the price of meat toppings. The take out menu I have stitting next to me confirms that meat toppings were $3 and the pic above places them at $2. Brings the price of a slice of peperoni to a far mor reasonable 15 cents

Stagger wrote:Looks like they already rolled back the price of meat toppings. The take out menu I have stitting next to me confirms that meat toppings were $3 and the pic above places them at $2. Brings the price of a slice of peperoni to a far mor reasonable 15 cents

not picking on you specifically, but i don't get how ppl are in such a ruffle over the topping price... pizza all across chicago is overpriced yet nobody seems to care.

nobody seems to have mentioned the fact that $1/topping for veggie toppings is actually CHEAPER than it is most everywhere else.

i can name a lot of places where all toppings (including onions, and simple things) are $2/ each... and i can even think of some where toppings are $3/each... even gritty cardboard crust places charge this sometimes.

i recently paid $38 for a small and large thin crust pizza at a certain other establishment, the small with 2 toppings and the large with 1 topping...

Whew. That 12 cents per slice was really oppressing their diners. Of course, that $1/pie would have meant maybe $50-75 a day for the house, or about the price of one more person on staff.

extramsg wrote: Of course, that $1/pie would have meant maybe $50-75 a day for the house, or about the price of one more person on staff.

if only they wouldn't have ran out of dough they probably could've sold 20 more pizzas and paid for that staffer... (edit: and everyone else would've been at work the full night and made a full paycheck)

dddane wrote:not picking on you specifically, but i don't get how ppl are in such a ruffle over the topping price... pizza all across chicago is overpriced yet nobody seems to care.

Well, I suppose it is my fault for not getting a picture of the pies of picked up in my post on the first page before my friends and I demolished them. If you saw the peperoni pie I took home that night, I doubt there would have been much argument that $3 was excessive for the amount of topping. My earlier post calculated the price per slice (pps) at 20 cents. This was being generous as I doubt there were 15 slices. Probably more like 10-12. I don't mind paying for qulity food at all. My issue was that there was probably 1-2 bites per slice that actually had any topping on it. TonyC mentions this in his post above as well. I tend to think that Jay and Co. recognized that the price was high for what you get as well, given that the price was already lowered. I get it that Coal Fire is new and still finding it's legs. Consistincy just isn't there yet, and that's OK. I do, infact, like the pizza there and have gone back since my original post (for a sausage pie which had a much better topping ratio BTW).

LTH,

'Bout the only aspect of Coal Fire we haven't examined in detail is the wood floor and railing. Frankly, were me I'd have used 30/16ths tile at the entryway, 20/16ths in the restaurant and iron, as opposed to wood, railing.

It's not to late to make these few simple changes and I'm sure it will increase productivity 39% in the first fortnight.

Enjoy,
Gary

When I get there I will confirm the countertop selections and see if any improvements can be made

I'd like to chime in that, personally, the prices didn't strike me as being all that high. They're comparable to both Spacca Napoli and their local competition: a 14" one-topping thin-crust pizza at Salerno's will run you $14.10.

extramsg wrote:Whew. That 12 cents per slice was really oppressing their diners. Of course, that $1/pie would have meant maybe $50-75 a day for the house, or about the price of one more person on staff.

Not to belabor the point (and elicit more GWiv interior decorating posts ) but I'm thinking my point is getting mixed up. I don't care about paying $2 or $4 for stuff... as long as you get a quality product. This goes for Coalfire and anywhere else. I worked in the resturant business for years and I am certainly not against folks making a buck in any way but it is also nice to get what you pay for. If they want to raise the cost back up and actually put 1.5x as much stuff on I'm fine with it.

Besides, I think the real issue effecting efficency is the disolved solids in the tap water Gary...

gleam wrote:the prices didn't strike me as being all that high. They're comparable to both Spacca Napoli and their local competition

of course you're right. except one of them tasted a lot better.

UGH! why am i contributing to this fungal-like growth of this thread? I do not know.

Stagger wrote:Besides, I think the real issue effecting efficency is the disolved solids in the tap water Gary...

Great, now we have a NY bagel vs Chicago bagel it's all about the water controversy.

Frankly, I'm more concerned as to whether the wall art is screwed in or simply hung.

Enjoy,
Gary

Ready for your closeup, Mr. Coalfire?



Sausage. I liked this a lot. Ethereally light crust, charred in spots, tasty Bari sausage. Really nice. Halfway into the next pizza I began to see Extramsg's point about the dough potentially benefiting from the flavor added by the use of a poolish or some other breadmaster tricks, it's not exactly deep in character, but when it's hot out of the oven with little coal-black bits, it's mighty fine.



Margherita. Did somebody forget the basil? Oops. This was nice too, though I agree the mozzarella is pretty ordinary and doesn't really melt, spread or do much of anything but sit there in the short time the thing cooks. As someone who uses buffalo mozzarella at home for this sort of thing-- admittedly, not a cheap habit-- I missed that extra tang. Still, I look forward to finishing it off tomorrow.



White pizza. I've never been to New Haven, don't know from Pepe's or Sally's, so maybe this is the style, but it's not the pizza for me-- compared to Spacca Napoli's Euro-style white pizzas, which are pretty light and delicate, the ricotta was laid on too thick for me.

But the sausage? Oh yeah, baby, I'll be back for that.

Prices seem on par with the likes of Spacca N. and we came out with more slices to take home than we typically do there, so I think it's a reasonable value. All in all, a nice place, seemed to be working much better though it wasn't in danger of being overwhelmed at 5:30. The lady who's now running the floor couldn't have been more gracious. The guy who's running the counter looked a little gunshy at the latest wave of camera-toting, question-asking LTHers in his face....

I think this thread is evidence of why it's so hard to be a real craftsman in food nowadays. You'll always be compared on price to mediocre places doing mediocre things with mediocre products. I'll shock you: out here in Portland, a town where our prices are generally lower on food than in Chicago, 12" pizzas at Nostrana and Ken's Artisan Pizza, which are made in a similar style in true wood burning ovens to those at Coalfire run about the same price as Coalfire's. Adding prosciutto to Nostana's pizza adds.....$4! Yikes. For one topping.

http://www.nostrana.com/menu.html

Stagger you say you're willing to pay for quality and then level a complaint about Coalfire's QUANTITY. Good is good and that $1 isn't going to set any of their customers back. But it may make a real difference for the quality of overall service and product they can offer. Is there too little toppings for the type of pizza or is it just that you think that much topping should be $2 instead of $3? If the latter, then you've got your priorities backwards, imo. From what I had and what I've seen, Coalfire puts the proper amount of toppings. And while the pizza can be improved, from what I've seen of Chicago's neopolitan pizza offerings, they could charge $20 and I'd still be showing up. It's really good pizza with the possibility of being great pizza someday. Don't force them in to price competitiveness with manufactured pizza places.

G Wiv wrote:LTH,

'Bout the only aspect of Coal Fire we haven't examined in detail is the wood floor and railing. Frankly, were me I'd have used 30/16ths tile at the entryway, 20/16ths in the restaurant and iron, as opposed to wood, railing.

It's not to late to make these few simple changes and I'm sure it will increase productivity 39% in the first fortnight.

Enjoy,
Gary

Actually, I've not heard any mention of the bathrooms. Are they clean? Is there a sign for employees to wash their hands? How many stalls?

more fuel for the coal fire:

http://blogs.chicagoreader.com/food/200 ... nder-fire/

"Spillane says the joint's instant popularity caught him completely off-guard: he knew of LTH, but figured it was read by "like 50 guys or something. I didn't realize it was thousands."

extramsg wrote:I think this thread is evidence of why it's so hard to be a real craftsman in food nowadays. You'll always be compared on price to mediocre places doing mediocre things with mediocre products. I'll shock you: out here in Portland, a town where our prices are generally lower on food than in Chicago, 12" pizzas at Nostrana and Ken's Artisan Pizza, which are made in a similar style in true wood burning ovens to those at Coalfire run about the same price as Coalfire's. Adding prosciutto to Nostana's pizza adds.....$4! Yikes. For one topping.

http://www.nostrana.com/menu.html

Stagger you say you're willing to pay for quality and then level a complaint about Coalfire's QUANTITY. Good is good and that $1 isn't going to set any of their customers back. But it may make a real difference for the quality of overall service and product they can offer. Is there too little toppings for the type of pizza or is it just that you think that much topping should be $2 instead of $3? If the latter, then you've got your priorities backwards, imo. From what I had and what I've seen, Coalfire puts the proper amount of toppings. And while the pizza can be improved, from what I've seen of Chicago's neopolitan pizza offerings, they could charge $20 and I'd still be showing up. It's really good pizza with the possibility of being great pizza someday. Don't force them in to price competitiveness with manufactured pizza places.

and same genre tho' California-fied:

pizzeria pico in Larkspur, CA: very good not mindblowing pies

dined there twice last January one dine-in/one pick-up

lunch: 4 people/4 single serving pies which we portioned out one slice per diner+one *arugula salad ordered seperately to be placed atop one pie, 4 wines by the glass, bottle of pelligrino

$100+

*very lightly-dressed leaves...basically the equivalent of a "topping" one would expect at any pizzeria of this ilk

Pizzeria Pico's by no means upscale in design...it's comfy and hospitably chic, but not chi-chi.

extramsg wrote:Is there too little toppings for the type of pizza or is it just that you think that much topping should be $2 instead of $3?

There was too little topping from a flavor stand point [quality]. Coupled with the fact that, previously, it cost $3 [quantity] I was left scratching my head on this particular aspect of the pizza. My previous two posts attempted, however unsuccesfully, to state that the quality aspect was far more important than quantity. My point is that if they get the flavor aspect right I would never question the cost at all. On the other hand, if my peperoni pie tastes mostly like a margherita, I start wondering where my $3 went. Again, this happened only once and the other 2 times I've been back for sausage pie I was more than pleased.

Very interesting conversation...ironically, we were going to go to Alhambra tonight (mostly because we live a couple of blocks away, and it sounds like it would be hilarious), but changed our minds after reading the LTH posts. Went to Coal Fire after seeing the post about the opening on the forum, but didn't read through all the comments (I'm new to LTH). We had a great experience!

Walked in at 7:15 PM for takeout (on a Saturday!) and were politely told that even though the cooking time is fairly quick, they had just compelted a take out order for 8 pies and needed to catch up a bit for the in-house diners--so it would be about 20 minutes for our 2 pizzas. No problem...they were ready as promised, and delicious after a 5 minute drive home in their boxes. Got a Margarita and a Sausage/Onion/Mushroom. Balance was good--we are very familiar with New Haven/NYC Pizza, as well as Spacca Napoli. Held up to 'em.

We asked about delivery, and were told they were working that out and hoped to do so soon. Looks like they are listening...

vickydp wrote:Very interesting conversation...ironically, we were going to go to Alhambra tonight (mostly because we live a couple of blocks away, and it sounds like it would be hilarious), but changed our minds after reading the LTH posts. Went to Coal Fire after seeing the post about the opening on the forum, but didn't read through all the comments (I'm new to LTH). We had a great experience!

Walked in at 7:15 PM for takeout (on a Saturday!) and were politely told that even though the cooking time is fairly quick, they had just compelted a take out order for 8 pies and needed to catch up a bit for the in-house diners--so it would be about 20 minutes for our 2 pizzas. No problem...they were ready as promised, and delicious after a 5 minute drive home in their boxes. Got a Margarita and a Sausage/Onion/Mushroom. Balance was good--we are very familiar with New Haven/NYC Pizza, as well as Spacca Napoli. Held up to 'em.

We asked about delivery, and were told they were working that out and hoped to do so soon. Looks like they are listening...

My group was one of the in-house orders that they needed to catch up with. After pulling Coalfire up on my LTH-GPS (thanks Gary) we arrived about 7:00, just when they were beginning to pull some of the 8 pizza takeout order from the oven.

After ordering our salads were delivered. I must say that $7.50 for a average size plate of iceberg lettuce, slivered onion, and mushrooms sliced at least 24 hrs prior is quite a high price to pay.

We had ordered two pies a Margherita, and a sausage. The Marg arrived about 15 minutes after our salads. Within 2 minutes the four of us had devoured it. Five minutes later we were all left with a dumb look on our faces when the "server?" tried removing our plates from the table. We inquired about our sausage pie and were told that they lost the second ticket.

The sausage pie arrived about 15 minutes later, and was perfectly cooked, hot out of the oven. It lasted only 2 minutes itself.

So, coalfire was hitting the spot for the pie, but the salads, and service? were quite lacking. My fiance, sister, and sister's hubby all loved it, and we will be back. Next time we'll just bring more alcohol, and sub another pie for the salads.

Flip