GAF wrote:I am a simple man with a simple phone. All I ask for is a sheet of paper that lists GNRs by neighborhood with addresses and phone numbers, like the old pocket chart. The Tinyurl site doesn't seem to have addresses, for what it is worth. Perhaps this is a DIY project.

As is often said, "suggesting is volunteering."

In all seriousness, GNR Committee member turkob is answering the call and will at least put something together that you can print out.

Now, back to the topic at hand . . .

=R=
for the moderators

GAF wrote:
I am a simple man with a simple phone. All I ask for is a sheet of paper that lists GNRs by neighborhood with addresses and phone numbers, like the old pocket chart. The Tinyurl site doesn't seem to have addresses, for what it is worth. Perhaps this is a DIY project.

If you click the printer icon (which is just to the right of "Get Directions" and "My Places"), you will get a page that is suitable to print and has a list of restaurants, addresses, etc. It isn't a pocket chart.

Funny all the hate for Honey 1. I've only tried the spares 1 time. Not to my liking, but I don't get spares very often. But, to me, the tips are fantastic. I've said, many times, that I wish it would be bad even once because I hate driving down there. It's just pain from where I live. But every time I go, it's just fantastic.

Of course, sometimes it's just personal taste. I brought the tips to work one day and someone complained that they were too tough. Too tough, that's the marvelous bark he was complaining about.

OTOH, I wasn't enamored with Smoque. I tried it 3 times and wasn't impressed. Again, personal taste.

I want a pocket guide that lists all the overrated restaurants.

Perhaps some enterprising member will put links to all of these observations in the threads where these restaurants are actually discussed!

David Hammond wrote:

Binko wrote:Anyhow, with the Hot Doug's comments--I've been lucky. Almost every time I've been there, I've been no more than fifth in line. It took me about five visits before I saw the legendary lines everyone talked about, and no way in effin' hell was I going to stand in that line for a hot dog. That said, it's about as good as a hot dog stand gets, in my opinion, both in terms of product and the welcoming personality of the owner. I understand the love for Hot Dougs much more than I do Kuma's.

Here's what I don't get: how is a long wait an indication that the restaurant is overrated? A long wait is something no one likes, but does the fact that it's tremendously popular (and thus likely to have long lines) make the restaurant overrated?

Isn't the fact that people are willing to wait over an hour for a product and you don't find the product worth waiting for the quintessence of the concept of overrated?

ziggy wrote:

David Hammond wrote:Here's what I don't get: how is a long wait an indication that the restaurant is overrated? A long wait is something no one likes, but does the fact that it's tremendously popular (and thus likely to have long lines) make the restaurant overrated?

Isn't the fact that people are willing to wait over an hour for a product and you don't find the product worth waiting for the quintessence of the concept of overrated?

David's original question doesn't assume that anyone doesn't find the product worth waiting for.

I agree with David, that a place that has long waits don't automatically mean that a restaurant is overrated. I also agree with ziggy, that a place whose food isn't worth waiting for is often overrated - and that that feeling is reinforced when that mediocre food is accompanied by long waits.

As one of the folks who commented on Doug's long lines, perhaps I (we?) weren't clear. Dougs is a sausage joint. As an avid encased meat eater through the years I've had some pretty good sausages. Dougs are good, and he certainly markets his menu and personality well, but there is no way I would suggest that this is a destination place that I would send people to, unless I was interested in demonstrating how, with a little creativity and personality one can make a big success out of a rather average product. Ergo, his food is over rated.

The additional fact that people wait in line for an hour is, in view, testament to Doug's success as a business man and not a producer of "must have" food. I mentioned this because it is confounding to me, not as evidence that it is overrated.

Is an hour of your time worth more than a $9 sausage? If so, you probably shouldn't wait in line.

I'd say Hot Doug's has long outlived the hype factor artificially inflating the wait time, so they must be doing something right.

reading this thread is SUCH a guilty pleasure...
wonderful way to kill a Friday afternoon at (Not) working.... LOL

nervous whistling

The question was about which places people - at least some people - think are nothing special, despite the hype here on LTH. It's obvious there are others here who like them, since otherwise they wouldn't be "LTH favorites", so there's no need to jump in to defend them. Unless your purpose is to provide even more hype, of course.

I can't think of a place that's experienced more hype over less substance than Hot Doug's. Not that it's bad in any way, but it's just nothing special at all. The long waits and inconvenient location, all for food that is just okay, make it the epitome of an overrated restaurant.

nsxtasy wrote:The long waits and inconvenient location, all for food that is just okay, make it the epitome of an overrated restaurant.

Unless, of course, you don't mind standing in line because you think it's totally worth it. In that case, it's not overrated at all. For the record, I'm not among the Hot Doug lovers, though I don't dislike the place. Things like taste as so personal.

Or, perhaps, the location is convenient to you and you can go during the week, when there's often no line at all. And, well, you and I have very different tastes in food.

I find Vie's location inconvenient, that doesn't mean I think it's overrated.

stevez wrote:

nsxtasy wrote:The long waits and inconvenient location, all for food that is just okay, make it the epitome of an overrated restaurant.

Unless, of course, you don't mind standing in line because you think it's totally worth it. In that case, it's not overrated at all. For the record, I'm not among the Hot Doug lovers, though I don't dislike the place. Things like taste as so personal.

Yes, thank you.

stevez wrote:Unless, of course, you don't mind standing in line because you think it's totally worth it. In that case, it's not overrated at all.

That's the exact same thing I said, albeit in different words:

nsxtasy wrote:It's obvious there are others here who like them

One person's overrated is another's favorite, and vice versa. What a surprising insight. (Not.)

And while one person's inconvenient location is another person's convenient one, that still doesn't mean a place is close to an el station, which can make a place much more (or much less) convenient for those of us who use public transit.

I made one late night visit to LTH because I had a 3am craving for Chinese. Was too salty in general and nothing special. Another GNR I have eaten at many times, but don't understand the raves for, is Art of Pizza. I used to work nearby and it was the easiest place to grab a slice of pizza so i ate there for lunch from time to time. Was decent, but one of the best in town? Is it better if ordering a whole pie -- admittedly, I've only bought by the slice. And the one time I headed down to Uncle John's I was very underwhelmed by the spare ribs. They were very tough and I didn't think the sauces were anything special.

As for ones mentioned above that I do really like, I will defend Paradise Pup and LSZ. When I worked out near O'Hare, I used to frequent Paradise Pup and it's certainly the best $5 burger/hotdog stand burger I've ever had. And don't forget about the 3-layer fries with cheese bacon & sour cream. I love Chinese food and it's so hard to find outside of Chinatown these days... so I'm always up for a visit to LSZ. I'd been there probably a half dozen times before trying the "chicken crack" and I am hooked. One time we carried it out and it was subpar, but the other times it has always been stellar. As are the shrimp in mayo sauce, orange beef and more. Do have to say I wish they had decent hot & sour soup, because theirs is pretty bad.

Must say the one place I definately find completely overrated is Johnnie's Beef. I don't find anoreix looking Italian beef with just an ok flavor and subpar fries all that appetizing. Ditto for Al's? Overpriced and nothing special.

About Hot Doug's: Husband went once, he wasn't impressed. I went once thought it was good but that was back in September and I have not been itching to go back nor would I ever wait in line enough to want to go back. For me it would have to be at opening time.

Sabatino's: Really loved it the first time we went, must have been about four or five years ago. The second time, the quality seemed a little underwhelming. That was a couple of years back. For me there are better old school Italian joints in the city.

Poochies: Blah. Not memorable. At. All.

Jimmy's Red Hots: husband and friends have been raving about this place for years and when I finally went it was a big fat meh two times in a row.

I also see Tre Kronor is on the GNR list. Work just down the street and only been once. Yep, just never wowed me enough to go back.

I loved the old school vibe of Marie's Pizza and Liquors. The pizza not so much. Years back, a friend of my husband's procliamed this was the best pizza she ever had. We felt no where near the same when we finally tried it this year. For pizza and italian beef nothing can hold a candle and compare to Freddie's at 31st and Union. And no hot dog joints I have been to have fries as addicting as the ones at Beef and Burger on Montrose (This site is the reason ever gave that place a shot)

You know, it seems this thread is slamming mostly smaller family owned and operated establishments that are simply trying to make a living in a bad economy. Now to make things even more difficult for those entrepeneurs, they have a permanent and very one sided record on the internet of mostly unqualified opinions of self appointed food critics. I find it exceedingly unfair (despite the fact that I agree with some of the opinions, and am myself, "a self appointed food critic"). The proper place for these sort of citicisms is in the actual threads that discuss the restaurants. That way there is a more balanced view presented. Personally, I am of the school that "if you can't say anything good then...", however, if you are compelled to express your negative assessments of an establishment , do it in the proper context( meaning the restaurant's original thread), and present supporting arguments and evidence. Don't just make a list of places you might dislike based on a one or two experiences, especially in a context where people who have positive things to say about a business are, by definition, excluded (based on the subject of the thread). I am not saying that people are not entitled to their opinions or don't have the right to express those opinions, I am just saying that this particular format and some of the comments made, do not present a balanced view. As one who has been attacked for offering the occassional dissenting opinion on a forum "sacred cow", I understand some poster's pent-up frustrations. I just do not find this particular thread and the way it has developed, as being constructive in any way. In fact, IMHO it underscores just why "foodies" are held in contempt (anybody see the recent Simpson's episode, where Marge becomes a food blogger?). If you have some constructive criticism of a small business that can help an owner address some shortcoming, show some intestinal fortitude and express that criticism in the original thread, where that citicism can be weighed against other member's more positive opinions. I realize I will be crucified for this post, but I felt somebody had to speak up. I have been an active member of this forum for going on 6 years, but this thread makes me fear that despite the best efforts and good intentions of the moderators, it may have finally "jumped the shark".

sincerely,
dave

ps: if the mods feel this entry more properly belongs in the site discussion section, I certainly understand.

dave

You seem to be saying if an establishment is a privately owned "mom and pop" place we should withhold criticism or critical observations?

I am not going to crucify you, but I am not going to agree either.

I'm not sure that I can agree, Dave. The very genesis of the thread is the notion that a restaurant mentioned here is already acknowledged as being widely beloved. The very context of the thread is that the balance you say is missing is not only predominant elsewhere in the forum, but overwhelmingly positive. That's the given with which it was started. If anything, it's an attempt to create the very balance you say is absent, by allowing in just one thread a place where a lone dissenting opinion can simply be stated. I do agree that much of this should go in the main threads (to be fair, much of it is already there, and I hope the openness with which this thread has been received will encourage more open dissent in the main threads and more of the balance you seek). And yes, dissenting opinion is worthless if it can't stand up to scrutiny. But taking a single thread -- a small cathartic exercise -- that also happens to serve as a good reminder that "favorites" are by no means universally so and declaring that the end of the forum, even if I grant that there's something inappropriate here (and I'm far from convinced of that), you don't think that's projecting an excessive amount of significance on one thread?

DutchMuse wrote:dave

You seem to be saying if an establishment is a privately owned "mom and pop" place we should withhold criticism or critical observations?

I am not going to crucify you, but I am not going to agree either.

I did not say that at all. I said that the citicisim should be made in another context where differing opinions can be presented. besides, these are not citicisms (at least not constructive ones) many of the posts are simply lists of establishments that people don't like for mostly unspecified reasons.

Dmnkly wrote:you don't think that's projecting an excessive amount of significance on one thread?

Not if sometime in the future, a searcher finds this particular thread, and reads it without viewing the other more positive threads. I think this thread is more an expression of the peer pressure sometimes exerted in this forum. Believe me, I have been on the receiving end of that pressure, and I admit that it has made me refrain from posting on certain restaurants. I too could list a bunch of "overrated" businesses, but have decided not to (at least in this context). And yes I was being overly dramatic, I have been known to belabor a point.

To add a point about "Mom and Pop" businesses, I am simply stating a fact. It seems nobody has had anything negative to say about corporate owned or higher end establishments (with the exception of Alinea and Carlos). As a small business owner who has been suffering through this wretched economy, and the increased focus of the IRS on small businesses, I may be overly sympathetic towards my fellow entrepeneurs.

d4v3 wrote:Not if sometime in the future, a searcher finds this particular thread, and reads it without viewing the other more positive threads.

But wouldn't they also then have to completely ignore the very title of the thread? It's the first two words... "LTH Favorites." And even if you somehow missed the title, I think you'd have to be reading in an amazingly selective fashion not to catch that.

d4v3 wrote:I think this thread is more an expression of the peer pressure sometimes exerted in this forum. Believe me, I have been on the receiving end of that pressure, and I admit that it has made me refrain from posting on certain restaurants.

What I like is that it refutes that pressure. There's an element of "You can say it. It's okay. There's nothing wrong with writing, 'Hey, I think you guys are all wrong.'" What I hope this thread demonstrates, in some small fashion, is that you can disagree without having your head bitten off. Call it empowerment therapy for the dissenter in all of us. We've had our cathartic moment. Now go back out there into the greater forum, tell us you don't like X place (or vice versa), and explain why so we can discuss it. Of course, in the end, we want what's in here out there (though, as you mention, I think a good deal more "why" is warranted in many cases - I'm an advocate of backing up your opinions with reasons, whatever they may be). If you've held off on dissenting before, I hope this thread inspires you not to hold your tongue. Ditto myself and everybody else here.

Is there any way I can transition this into the St. Crispin's Day speech?

Dmnkly wrote:

d4v3 wrote:I think this thread is more an expression of the peer pressure sometimes exerted in this forum. Believe me, I have been on the receiving end of that pressure, and I admit that it has made me refrain from posting on certain restaurants.

What I like is that it refutes that pressure. There's an element of "You can say it. It's okay. There's nothing wrong with writing, 'Hey, I think you guys are all wrong.'" What I hope this thread demonstrates, in some small fashion, is that you can disagree without having your head bitten off. Call it empowerment therapy for the dissenter in all of us. We've had our cathartic moment. Now go back out there into the greater forum, tell us you don't like X place (or vice versa), and explain why so we can discuss it. Of course, in the end, we want what's in here out there (though, as you mention, I think a good deal more "why" is warranted in many cases - I'm an advocate of backing up your opinions with reasons, whatever they may be). If you've held off on dissenting before, I hope this thread inspires you not to hold your tongue. Ditto myself and everybody else here.

Is there any way I can transition this into the St. Crispin's Day speech?

I agree completely. It is just that this thread has been at the top of the forum for almost a week and is up to 4 pages. I have been holding back, hoping it would drop down (I guess I am not helping at all). I just wish posters would be a little more constructive in their criticisms, and not simply re-iterate opinions they have expressed elsewhere (often ad nauseum).

any way to add a spell checker? (did I just volunteer my services?)

It seems Yelp infiltrated LTH forum.

A restaurant of true quality, when given negative feedback, responds "This will help us get better."

People who are happy to accept mediocrity do not help a restaurant get better.

DutchMuse wrote:A restaurant of true quality, when given negative feedback, responds "This will help us get better."

People who are happy to accept mediocrity do not help a restaurant get better.

Simply saying this place sucks, really gives a business owner little to work with. I am not saying all the critisims in this thread are presented without specifics, but the majority are. Saying a place is "meh" is useless. What does that even mean?

(and I just put this overrated thread back on top of the heap). As Francisco Zappa once said: "This tree is ugly, it wants to die."

d4v3 wrote:Now to make things even more difficult for those entrepeneurs, they have a permanent and very one sided record on the internet of mostly unqualified opinions of self appointed food critics. I find it exceedingly unfair (despite the fact that I agree with some of the opinions, and am myself, "a self appointed food critic"). The proper place for these sort of citicisms is in the actual threads that discuss the restaurants. That way there is a more balanced view presented.

I'm going to disagree with you for technological reasons, Dave. Here's an exercise: Go to Google.com and type in
hot doug's site:lthforum.com

Now scan the results. Do you see this thread? I looked through 15 pages of results without finding it. Why isn't it at the top? Because Google--and all of the search engines--have pretty sophisticated algorithms designed to ensure that the most relevant search results appear first.

Unless someone comes to LTH this week while this thread is at the top of the list, it's highly unlikely that this is the first thread someone will see about Hot Doug's--particularly if they're actively seeking out info about the restaurant. And the same is true for all of the establishments mentioned in this thread. There's too much info in this thread that's irrelevant to any one restaurant to put this thread at the top of the search results.

It strikes me that this thread is useful because it demonstrates the diversity of opinion. It is well for restauranteurs (or anyone else for that matter) to remember that even if they are very successful, they are not going to please everyone - either because some people will have bad experiences given mistakes made on that day (some food gets overcooked, some servers are too overworked on a particular day) or because a customer does not enjoy that cuisine. And it follows that even places that are severely criticized will have their fans as well.