A sub Comparison - Bari, Riviera, Graziano, Panozzo

Just a few of Chicago's Italian sub offerings, visited and kinda sorta compared.

Having loved Bari subs (and giardiniera), then being informed (via the bari gnr renewal chat) that there may be better options in the city, I had no other choice! In the true spirit of LTHForum, I took it upon myself to do an Italian sub crawl.

I managed to drag dansch and a few other friends on the crawl, so we could try one or two subs at each stop without overeating... too much. To level the playing field, we didn't start off hungry and we paced our food crawl throughout the day. Our stops included Panozzo, Bari, J.P. Graziano, and Riviera.

I'll preface this post with a little spoiler. Not surprisingly, there were no clear winners or losers, each with its own merit. Even if there were a clear winner in my mind, I'm but one young inexperienced enthusiast, so what do I know? I must also add, I really feel lucky to live in a city with this many, not just good, but great, legit Italian deli's. And I'm sure the list doesn't just stop at these 4. All 4 had great subs, and each had it's own Italian Deli charm.

We started at Panozzo, and stuck with their traditional italian, the "Panino Italiano Tradizionale", which is the first on the menu, and recommended.

The Bread: Good and fresh, though I wished it were flakier/crustier. Probably the bottom of the list of the four breads, though it was by no means bad.

The Ingredients: Genoa Salami, Capicollo, Mortadella, Prosciutto Cotto and Provolone Cheese, red wine vinegar, lettuce, tomato. Standard deli meats for an "italiano", all above average, though nothing stood out as unique or amazing. Even though they do cure some of their own meats in house, I doubt they dole them out on their deli sandwiches. The one negative was that it was drenched in red wine vinegar, so much so that I had difficulty enjoying the other flavors.

Overall: A very good sandwich, could have been great without so much red wine vinegar. The store was cute, the staff very friendly, and I'll surely be back to try out some of their in-house cured meats and maybe the mozzarella/prosciutto sandwich to compare with the ones we tried at the other stops.







2nd stop was J.P. Graziano, where we had the Italian, and the Prosciutto/Mozzarella.

The Bread: I present to you this dilemma. To my knowledge, and verified by many online sources, Graziano uses D'amato's bread. So does bari. However in a side by side, at least on this day, they were both very different, Graziano having the better of the two. It had a thicker crust, with a chewier inside, while the bari sub had a lighter body and flakier crust, more like a French baguette. Both being from D'Amato's, this is very odd, and I plan to call around to get to the bottom of it. Perhaps they order different breads from the same place, or maybe it's just a matter of luck of the draw. My guess, different batches made by different hands. Afterall, D'amato's is a small rustic bakery and is subject to variation, perhaps that is part of its charm.

As silly as calling a winner in this category may be, the bread category goes to Graziano.

The Ingredients: Here we ordered 2 sandwiches. The Italian and the prosciutto/mozzarella. On the Italian: hot capicola, Volpi genova salame, mortadella, provolone, tomato & lettuce w/ red wine vinegar & oregano. The Prosciutto/mozzarella: Prosciutto di Parma, fresh mozzarella, fresh basil, tomato & lettuce w/ red wine vinegar & oregano.

Both of these were works of art. The meats top quality and they were prepared with the greatest of care. The prosciutto was a softer variety, and less salted. When tasted alone, it was great and flavorful, and I'd actually say it was the highest quality of all the meats on this trip. However, the texture being soft and the lack of salt buried it within the sandwich. The fresh basil of quality and was a accent on the prosciutto sandwich.

Overall: Both great sandwiches. Excellent overall packages, well balanced. Perhaps it's my unsophisticated pallet, but I would have preferred a drier saltier prosciutto.









3rd Stop was Bari Foods.

The Bread: D'amato's bread. While still great bread it was not the quality of the Graziano bread which is also D'amato's, be it a fluke or not I have no idea, see my above confusion.

The Ingredients: Again we went with the Italian and Prosciutto and fresh Mozarella. The italian: Capicolla, Genoa Salami, Mortadella, Provolone & medium Giardiniera. All of the ingredients were top quality and the sandwiches were well prepared. Of the trip, the Prosciutto and Mozarella here was near the top of my list. If you've read any of my previous posts about Bari, you'll know that I'm obsessed with the giardiniera which Bari makes in house. It really epitomizes what I love about bari, and what makes this sandwich still number one in my book.

Overall: Bari still makes a hell of a sandwich. Meats on the Italian were top quality, and piled high. My favorite still being the Prosciutto and Mozzarella, with medium giardiniera, which even after this trip is still my favorite sandwich in the city. Both sandwiches were made with respect for the art form.











The 4th and final stop was Riviera. For this stop, we were getting pretty full so decided to stick with just one sandwich. We opted for the famous "will's special".

The Bread: Not sure where the bread was from, however I found it to be a bit too soft and with much less flavor than the breads from D'amato's. It's becoming quite obvious that sandwiches made on D'amato's bread have a huge leg up in this comparison.

The Ingredients: The meat on the "will special" is a spicier, heaver load, literally heavier and in flavor. And this is a good thing. It was probably the wrong sandwich to finish off on, but I still quickly finished off my portion. The Mozzarella on this sandwich was by far the standout for me. It was stretchy, chewy, and milky. Not sure if it was made in house, but it certainly gave me the impression of being very fresh.

Overall: It's the "will's special", it's a great package. If it had better bread and Bari's Giardiniera, it would be the best sandwich in the city.











And the winner of our sub crawl...
drum roll...
... The frankensandwich: The meat's from a "will's special", with D'amato's bread (when at its best), and Bari's Giardiniera. Next time I feel like driving all over the cities edges, I'm going to make this happen.

Panozzo
1303 S Michigan Ave
Chicago, IL 60605
Hours:
Tue-Fri 10:30 am - 7 pm
Sat 10 am - 5 pm
Sun 10 am - 4 pm

Bari Foods
1120 W Grand Ave
Chicago, IL 60622
Hours:
Mon-Fri 8 am - 6:30 pm
Sat 8 am - 6 pm
Sun 8 am - 1 pm

J.P. Graziano
901 W Randolph St
Chicago, IL 60607
Hours:
Mon-Fri 7:30 am - 3:30 pm
Sat 9 am - 4 pm

Riviera
3220 N Harlem Avenue
Chicago, IL 60634
Hours:
Mon-Fri 9 am - 6 pm
Sat 8 am - 6 pm
Sun 8 am - 3 pm

Fantastic post, thank you. I will be thinking of your frankenwich tomorrow as the kids in my office debate over jimmy johns and subway for lunch.

Great! Thanks for the research.

I believe that D'Amato's makes several varieties of breads, so "different" D'Amato's breads makes sense (call me crazy, but I find D'Amato's breads mostly serviceable at best). On the other hand, and maybe this is just because of lack of recent visits there, but I think of Riv as letting you choose your sub roll from the several types on offer. Do they not do that anymore? In other words, the customer shares some responsibility for getting the bread right, just as Will relieved some of the responsibility of making the right meat choices.

Laikom & Co.,

Great sub comparison. It must have been a fun day, but...

Nice little trick you pulled out there on then end. The Will Special coming out on top is no surprise, but it's also not quite an Italian (which is what the other subs were, in essence). It's a drag through Da Riv's best ... including the addition of their wonderful fresh mozzarella instead of the more pedestrian provolone. The addition of the hot, assertive soppressata on the Will Special definitely gives it an edge.

Also, I'm not sure that Graziano uses D'Amato's bread (or ever did). And VI is right -- unless things have changed recently at The Riviera, you choose your bread -- but none of the bread is as crusty as D'Amato's (fine by me, but at the same time, none of their bread offerings are really satisfactory).

Overall, I think this comparison shows that a very, very good Italian-style sub can be had at more than one place around town. And they're all (with the exception of Panozzo's and the newly invigorated Graziano's) a dying breed -- and I'm including Fiore's and Freddy's and Conte di Savoia into this mix as well -- so happily patronize these great places now.

aschie30 wrote:Also, I'm not sure that Graziano uses D'Amato's bread (or ever did).

They definitely do use D'Amato's. Last time I had my usual, I conversed with the proprietress about this--they were running out and had to get more, so I inquired about the source.

Great post!

At J.P. Graziano (and other places too but I've asked at Bari and they said no), you can sub sharp provolone for the regular mild provolone on the Italian, which gives the sandwich a funkier edge that I like. I also like to have them add prosciutto to an Italian if they don't already put it on there. So I'm definitely not opposed to the best sandwich being some amalgamation of things you like from various places or some monstrosity of a special order (which is how we got the Will Special to begin with!)

But when it comes to the straight-up default Italian sub that you get when you ask for an Italian, my favorite Italian sub (which yes I've mentioned before, both here and on twitter, sorry to sound like a broken record )is from Stefanelli & Sons in Blue Island. d'Amato's bread, high quality meats. The giardiniera could be better I guess. Also the sandwich only comes in a 7" but they do pile it on a bit, so 7" is enough. Here's a post by da Beef about it.

I know Blue Island is out of the way for many. And I realize this sub survey was not intended to be comprehensive. But I think it's good enough to be considered against any of these other places. So if anybody gets it into their head to do another epic Italian sub trek, I'd be interested to hear how you think it stacks up.


Stefanelli and Sons
13012 Western Avenue
Blue Island, IL 60406
(708) 389-0300

laikom-

Great post and pics. Thanks for taking on the challenge!

Clap clap Clap.

Let me throw another option into the mix here.

Scudiero's Italian Bakery on Lake Street in Melrsoe Park bakes its own incredible Italian loaf daily. Crispy on the outside. Moist and aromatic on the inside.

Combine that bread with the Will Specisl ingredients and, man oh man, what a sandwich.

Mr G's from Graziano's, but replace the provolone with fresh mozzerella.

Graziano's make multiple trips per day to D'Amatos to pick up bread.

Chicago Hokie wrote:Mr G's from Graziano's, but replace the provolone with fresh mozzerella.

Graziano's make multiple trips per day to D'Amatos to pick up bread.

I think the second point must explain Bari's slight disadvantage in the bread category.

JeffB wrote:

Chicago Hokie wrote:Mr G's from Graziano's, but replace the provolone with fresh mozzerella.

Graziano's make multiple trips per day to D'Amatos to pick up bread.

I think the second point must explain Bari's slight disadvantage in the bread category.

I don't know about that. It seems that every time I'm in D'Amato's, regardless of time of day, someone is running a fresh bag of sub loaves over to Bari. Given how sloppy Bari is with everything else in the store, my speculation is that they store the bread poorly, like by putting it in a hot plastic bag and piping steam in or something.

Kenny, as you know, the Bari grocery/deli occupies a storefront adjacent to the original No. 1 D'Amato's Bakery retail operation (which, while relocated for some time to the storefront across Grand and next to the commercial baking facility, has returned to its traditional spot on the north side of the street). I just got a tickle out of the suggestion that maybe Graziano's edge came from multiple bread runs when, in fact, Bari essentially shares an awning with D'Amato's. I think they are using 2 different D'Amato's products. Bari isn't neat as a pin the way, say, Conte di Savoia (the Count) or the Riv are, but I wouldn't say sloppy.

Kenny kids, as anyone who's been to Bari has seen them pulling out fresh loaves being stored in plain air in massive, empty flour sacks, the way that they were brought to Bari from D'Amato's. One thing Bari can't be fairly accused of is giving over sandwiches with squishy bread.

Thanks everyone for the clarification on Graziano's bread.

Couldn't remember if Kenny was in the Bari sux/other places are better camp. I seem to remember that he is.

JeffB wrote:Couldn't remember if Kenny was in the Bari sux/other places are better camp. I seem to remember that he is.

I'm definitely in the Bari sucks camp. But that's about Bari as an overall establishment, not about the subs. The subs are fine, in a who gives a sh*t kinda way.

laikom wrote:[b][size=150]The 4th and final stop was Riviera.
......
The Ingredients: The meat on the "will special" is a spicier, heaver load, literally heavier and in flavor. And this is a good thing. It was probably the wrong sandwich to finish off on, but I still quickly finished off my portion. The Mozzarella on this sandwich was by far the standout for me. It was stretchy, chewy, and milky. Not sure if it was made in house, but it certainly gave me the impression of being very fresh.

The mozz is very much made in-house at Da Riv... they make it once a day, every weekday, and IIRC 3 times-a-day on Saturdays. I know, cos on 2 or 3 occasions Ive gotten there near closing, and theyve been out of fresh-mozz for my Will Special.. and, on weekdays, when they run out they run out, hard cheese (literally). Both times they offfered to replace it with packaged-mozz or provolone - and both times I chose the latter, which made for a good (but not quite Will-Special-good) sammy.

FWIW, I agree with most of the analysis above... I find Bari to have the best bread (with its proximity to D'Amato's)..I must try JPG again soon, but I personally think the meat-ingredients are far by the best at Da Riv, their hot-soprasetta is particularly special.

c8w

c8w wrote:The mozz is very much made in-house at Da Riv... they make it once a day, every weekday, and IIRC 3 times-a-day on Saturdays. I know, cos on 2 or 3 occasions Ive gotten there near closing, and theyve been out of fresh-mozz for my Will Special.. and, on weekdays, when they run out they run out, hard cheese (literally). Both times they offfered to replace it with packaged-mozz or provolone - and both times I chose the latter, which made for a good (but not quite Will-Special-good) sammy.

FWIW, I agree with most of the analysis above... I find Bari to have the best bread (with its proximity to D'Amato's)..I must try JPG again soon, but I personally think the meat-ingredients are far by the best at Da Riv, their hot-soprasetta is particularly special.

c8w

Good to know about the Mozzarella at da riv. It was so great, I was all but sure that it was made fresh. And if it wasn't clear in my post, the meats were all exceptional. One thing i forgot to note/gripe about. They do have house made giardiniera in jars up on the meat counter, however they used a "store bought" brand rather than their own. I really should have purchased a jar, but the combination of being in a daze from being at the end of a food crawl, coupled with my annoyance that they didn't use it on their sandwiches, I passed. I am kicking myself now, because i can' help but wonder how good it is. Anyone happen to know how it stacks up to Bari's?

Kennyz wrote:

JeffB wrote:

Chicago Hokie wrote:Mr G's from Graziano's, but replace the provolone with fresh mozzerella.

Graziano's make multiple trips per day to D'Amatos to pick up bread.

I think the second point must explain Bari's slight disadvantage in the bread category.

I don't know about that. It seems that every time I'm in D'Amato's, regardless of time of day, someone is running a fresh bag of sub loaves over to Bari. Given how sloppy Bari is with everything else in the store, my speculation is that they store the bread poorly, like by putting it in a hot plastic bag and piping steam in or something.

What you call sloppy, I'd call character. After all, their giardiniera is pickled in the natural way, by using the wild yeasts and bacteria found in the air. It's like asking cantillon to clean up their lambic fermenting facilities. If they cleaned up too much, I'm sure the giardiniera would lose some of it's characteristic flavors.

Overall: A very good sandwich, could have been great without so much red wine vinegar. The store was cute, the staff very friendly, and I'll surely be back to try out some of their in-house cured meats and maybe the mozzarella/prosciutto sandwich to compare with the ones we tried at the other stops.

The Prosciutto and Mozzarella sandwich is Panozzo's is really fantastic, I highly recommend that you return and give it a try (I always get it with the Pesto.) Panozzo's is a great neighborhood place, and probably the biggest thing I miss about living in the South Loop. They also do daily specials that are all house made and really well done, especially as last minute dinner take out.

Vital Information wrote:I think of Riv as letting you choose your sub roll from the several types on offer. Do they not do that anymore? In other words, the customer shares some responsibility for getting the bread right, just as Will relieved some of the responsibility of making the right meat choices.

They very well may. I've only been there a few times, so I couldn't remember the protocol, but I think you can pick a roll from those drawers in the last aisle or something. Should've asked.

As far as the D'Amato's bread at Bari vs. Graziano's, it was definitely a different type, not just a matter of the same baguettes being treated differently.

I had big hopes for Panozzo's, but the vinegar was just too much. It overpowered the sandwich, and I think the excess moisture impacted the bread. I really like Panozzo's and will definitely give them another shot.

As far as Bari, I really felt like the giardiniera was the only thing carrying the sandwich.

The mozzarella at Riviera was a huge step up from both Grazianos and Bari.

Given that I live in the city, Riviera is just a schlep. My go-to will definitely be a Will Special at Graziano's, perhaps supplemented with some of Bari's medium giardiniera from my stash at home.

-Dan

dansch wrote:
Given that I live in the city, Riviera is just a schlep. My go-to will definitely be a Will Special at Graziano's, perhaps supplemented with some of Bari's medium giardiniera from my stash at home.

-Dan

But JPG's hot giardianiera is so good!

Great sub comparo, laikom. Teeny nit is it's no fair to have giardianiera only at Bari and none of the others. I know, I know, I'm free to do my own comparison and post my own results any time I can get my lazy butt out to duplicate your efforts - that' why I say it's a teeny nit!

Kman wrote:

dansch wrote:
Given that I live in the city, Riviera is just a schlep. My go-to will definitely be a Will Special at Graziano's, perhaps supplemented with some of Bari's medium giardiniera from my stash at home.

-Dan

But JPG's hot giardianiera is so good!

Great sub comparo, laikom. Teeny nit is it's no fair to have giardianiera only at Bari and none of the others. I know, I know, I'm free to do my own comparison and post my own results any time I can get my lazy butt out to duplicate your efforts - that' why I say it's a teeny nit!

Sorry I failed to mention it. But we did have the giardiniera at all but panozzo. None were noteworthy, in my opinion. Lots of surprises on this trip. For the most part the difference between the subs was not substantial, it was the little things that made the difference. Just as none of the mozzarella came close to da riv. No giardianiera came close to bari. I think i did mention that i didn't try Riviera's house made giardiniera, sadly they didn't include it on the sandwiches.

dansch wrote:As far as the D'Amato's bread at Bari vs. Graziano's, it was definitely a different type, not just a matter of the same baguettes being treated differently.

After a little sleuthing... OK I simply called D'amato's and asked... I found out that the bread is in fact the same exact bread. I double verified it with the staff there. Both sub shops order the extra long french bread, no doubt about it.

The bread was certainly different tasting on that day. It seemed a bit fresher at Bari, crisper outside (we've all experienced that roof of the mouth scrape) and pillowy, less chewy inside. My best guess is that with a few hours on the life it softens up to our favor. While we were at JP Graziano, I saw the proprietor carrying in a fresh bag of loaves from D'Amato's, having just run out. This was after we already placed our order, so there is no doubt that we got the end of the stash of bread.

I liked the softer version better, but then again I prefer my Bari sub after an hour in the package when the bread softens up, and the oil seeps in, so it's no surprise.

My own sleuthing yielded a very different answer. According to sources that prefer to remain unnamed, Bari orders bread made to their own specs. That bread is baked in the non coal ovens on the south side of the street. My source says that the Graziano loaf is the same as what one buys retail, and it is baked in the north side coal ovens. You can in fact see the difference. Coal oven loaves are flat on the bottom whereas regular oven loaves which Bari uses are rounded.

With an aforementioned Italian sausage minestrone, we took out a Italian sub with fresh mozz and a meatball sub from Panozzo's this week. I'll echo that the Italian does not shine - bread was crumbly, tomato mealy, but the meats were evenly cut and savory. $6.99. The meatball sub (with aged provolone) was fantastic, even if this batch of pickled banana peppers was a bit sweet. I typically favor what's hot at Panozzo's over what's cold.

In all of these sandwich comparisons, price and sandwich size are certainly factors for me. Somehow, there is a world of value appreciation in the three bucks between $4 at Riviera and $7 at Panozzo's. And if Bari prices have crept up, they still occasionally give me a much longer sandwich than I've expected. Graziano is toward the higher end but the ingredient quality and service feel downright artisanal.

Not exactly the same category as you've picked, but I do dig Alpine Sub Shop (Elmwood Park, near Johnnie's Beef, squishy roll variety), Italian Superior Bakery (muffuletta standard, but they'll make a sub), and the Italian panino imbottito at Piccolo Mondo in Hyde Park (lunch).

Kennyz wrote:My own sleuthing yielded a very different answer. According to sources that prefer to remain unnamed, Bari orders bread made to their own specs. That bread is baked in the non coal ovens on the south side of the street. My source says that the Graziano loaf is the same as what one buys retail, and it is baked in the north side coal ovens. You can in fact see the difference. Coal oven loaves are flat on the bottom whereas regular oven loaves which Bari uses are rounded.

And the plot thickens.

I have received a 3rd answer. I called up bari. They do use the same coal fired bread that everyone else uses. I even asked to be transferred to the back to talk to the guy who handles the bread orders. Everyone was very nice and helpful, maybe even slightly amused at my insistence. I was transferred to the bread-master and was told the same thing. Same bread that everyone gets, no special orders, no special preference etc.

I asked about different batches, and why sometimes the bread at bari day to day tastes different (which is true) and they did however say something similar to what kenny mentioned. Sometimes D'Amato's cannot keep up with demand for the coalfired bread and they have to sell/supply it from the "regular" non-coal fired ovens. They said there is no preference to who gets what, if D'Amato's cannot keep up with demand, and they even sell the "regular" oven baked breads in their own store. Unless Graziano has more clout with D'Amato's than Bari (which, considering the proximity seems very unlikely), the only way Graziano could avoid the non-coal breads would be if they horde bread or if they just decide to stop selling subs when they can't get the bread they want, which I doubt happens. Fun sleuthing. Only on LTH.

I'm a huge fan of the Graziano's version of the Will Special.

I typically favor what's hot at Panozzo's over what's cold.

My favorite sub at Panozzo's? Although I like their meats, it's actually the vegetable sub. A tad generous with the vinegar as mentioned above, but that doesn't
detract much from the rich flavorful mouthful of every bite. Try it before you give up on the cold.

laikom- you've mentioned "Genova salami" three times in your review...didn't you mean Genoa salami?