Yum Thai: Kaeng khûa hãwy khõm

Yum Thai: Kaeng khûa hãwy khõm

Went to Yum Thai last night with some LA relations and the Time Out Chicago issue with Erik M’s article in it.

I ordered all of Erik’s picks, but the real standout for me was the kaeng khûa hãwy khõm, which is described by Erik in his translated menu as “mild red curry with Thai eggplant, basil, cha-om (Acacia leaf), and Thai snails (w/o shells).”

The “Thai snails,” which seemed very similar to periwinkles, had a good, toothy texture, with the slight resistance that might be offered by, say, little gizzards. They had a definite taste, but I think that these snails, like their larger French brethren, greatly gain in deliciousness by the sauce they are cooked in rather than their inherent flavor (which is minimal).

The eggplant was done perfectly, and the sauce had a lot of dimension, which was due to the Acacia leaf, but also to the Ka Choi Soi (phonetic spelling offered by waitress), a rhizome that helped give the sauce a wonderful complexity. The waitress said it was like galangal, which I guess it was, in that it’s a root (or underground stem) with a somewhat sharp, gingery bite, but it seemed to have an almost pine-like note (though that might have been the Acacia talking – I believe it’s related to the evergreen family).

The red curry sauce made the tongue glow with excitement without numbing it by overzealously applied capsicum, joining in camaraderie with other components, supporting the flavors of the rest without demanding predominance.

Most embarrassing moment of the evening: a relation pointing to Erik’s article (which she evidently had not read) and repeating to the waitress with the emphasis and volubility of the uninformed: “We’d like to order some farang, but what is farang, any way?” A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Yum Thai
7748 Madison
Forest Park, IL
708-366-8888

David Hammond wrote:Yum Thai: Kaeng khûa hãwy khõm

Most embarrassing moment of the evening: a relation pointing to Erik’s article (which she evidently had not read) and repeating to the waitress with the emphasis and volubility of the uninformed: “We’d like to order some farang, but what is farang, any way?” A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

That's funny!

I think the snails are "sea-snails" i.e., periwinkles or whelks, not land snails like the stuff you get with the garlic butter.

David,

I am glad that you enjoyed the snail curry. I have a standing obligation whereby, whenever I go to Yum Thai, I have to bring back orders of kaeng khûa hãwy khõm for certain city-dwelling Thai friends.

The mysterious ingredient that the waitress mentioned is krà-chai. It is also known as, "Chinese keys," or simply, "rhizome." It is most readily available in small plastic bags in the freezer cases of the local Thai, Vietnamese, and Cambodian grocers.

The taste of krà-chai is unmistakable*, and it is the secret ingredient in a number of Thai dishes like nêung hãwy laai krà-chai, khanõm jiin náam yaa, kaeng liang plaa, and kaeng liang kûng sòt. Yum serves this last dish--which is another personal favourite--and I just happened to have it on Friday. You will find it clearly indicated on my new Yum Thai Menu Translation, and where I describe it as a "spicy peppercorn curry with squash, baby corn, straw mushrooms, and shrimp, served in a firepot [no coconut milk]."





Bits of shredded krà-chai are clearly discenable in the first photograph, above.

Kaeng liang is one of the oldest dishes/curries in the Thai repetoire, and its manner of preparation simply entails the dissolution of hand-ground paste in a pot of boiling stock.

Regards,
Erik M.

* In his book, Thai Food, David Thompson so aptly referred to the taste of krà-chai as "camphor-like."

Erik M. wrote:David,

I am glad that you enjoyed the snail curry. I have a standing obligation whereby, whenever I go to Yum Thai, I have to bring back orders of kaeng khûa hãwy khõm for certain city-dwelling Thai friends.

The mysterious ingredient that the waitress mentioned is krà-chai. It is also known as, "Chinese keys," or simply, "rhizome." It is most readily available in small plastic bags in the freezer cases of the local Thai, Vietnamese, and Cambodian grocers.

The taste of krà-chai is unmistakable*, and it is the secret ingredient in a number of Thai dishes like nêung hãwy laai krà-chai, khanõm jiin náam yaa, kaeng liang plaa, and kaeng liang kûng sòt. Yum serves this last dish--which is another personal favourite--and I just happened to have it on Friday. You will find it clearly indicated on my new Yum Thai Menu Translation where I describe it as a "spicy peppercorn curry with squash, baby corn, straw mushrooms, and shrimp, served in a firepot [no coconut milk]."

Bits of shredded krà-chai are clearly discenable in the first photograph, above.

Kaeng liang is one of the oldest dishes/curries in the Thai repetoire, and its manner of preparation simply entails the dissolution of hand-ground paste in a pot of boiling stock.

Regards,
Erik M.

* In his book, Thai Food, David Thompson so aptly referred to the taste of krà-chai as "camphor-like."

Erik, why is (was) this dish called "mon curry" on the old Yum Thai menu translation--and because of that, that is the way I have always named the dish to others (and that is the way it is described in the Slow Food book).

Rob

Vital Information wrote:Erik, why is (was) this dish called "mon curry" on the old Yum Thai menu translation--and because of that, that is the way I have always named the dish to others (and that is the way it is described in the Slow Food book).

I have no idea. But, then again, once I set my mind to translating menus, I never referred to Foodfirst's translation(s) for anything. Where would be the value in that? Besides, Eddie, Yum's owner, admitted some embarrasment with that first translation. She told me that given the number of inaccuracies and unknowns that it contained, she often felt uncomfortable giving it out. Now, bless Foodfirst's heart, but she could hardly have done the menu(s) justice from several thousand miles away, with no access to the cooks, or to the food itself.

Transliterated, the Thai script clearly reads kaeng liang kûng sòt, with kûng sòt simply meaning "fresh shrimp."

Erik M.

Erik M. wrote:The mysterious ingredient that the waitress mentioned is krà-chai. It is also known as, "Chinese keys," or simply, "rhizome." It is most readily available in small plastic bags in the freezer cases of the local Thai, Vietnamese, and Cambodian grocers.

* In his book, Thai Food, David Thompson so aptly referred to the taste of krà-chai as "camphor-like."

Erik,

Our waitress was kind enough to bring out the bag of "rhizome" to show us, but, gosh I said, there are a lot of different rhizomes; which one is this? At which point, she gave me her phonetic spelling, and told me I could get it at Thai Grocery.

Camphor is definitely the flavor I was detecting but not describing very well, and this may seem like a strange flavor to some, but in combination with acacia, curry, etc., it was fascinating. And "fascinating" IS the word for this dish: it kept opening up and revealing itself, touching taste sensors in new combinations; I just really dug it.

Had the curry for lunch today, and as many have noted (Zim, I think, and several others), it just gets better with a night in the refrigerator.

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:Most embarrassing moment of the evening: a relation pointing to Erik’s article (which she evidently had not read) and repeating to the waitress with the emphasis and volubility of the uninformed: “We’d like to order some farang, but what is farang, any way?” A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

David:

So, I take it that was a slip of the tongue about wanting some "farang" and, like you, your relations have no objection to cannibalism!



A

P.S. I assume Thai "farang" is ultimately from the Arabic and "farang" in the sense of European reflects the old generalisation of "Frank", i.e. Frenchman, from the time of the crusades. Nam nam.

Antonius wrote:P.S. I assume Thai "farang" is ultimately from the Arabic and "farang" in the sense of European reflects the old generalisation of "Frank", i.e. Frenchman, from the time of the crusades. Nam nam.

A,

Yes, your sense of the word seems substantiated (http://baheyeldin.com/linguistics/thai-word-farang-variations-in-other-languages-arabic-origin.html).

Might there be a more galactic association here, as well (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/aliens/article/70601.html)?

Hammond

David,

A closer reading of your original post makes me almost certain that the item in question is galangal, and not, as I had originally suggested, Chinese keys. In my initial response, I just ran with your bit about the waitress telling you that it "was like galangal." But, upon further reflection, I am reconsidering my words. First, krà-chai and coconut milk are very rarely bedfellows. One of the only dishes that I, personally, can think of that incorporates both is khanõm jiin náam yaa.* And, then there is your mention of the dish's "pine-like note." Galangal has a very piney aroma and flavour, and, additionally, and perhaps most importantly, galangal is a traditional element in red curry pastes, including mild red curry pastes like khrêuang kaeng khûa, the one that Yum uses for the curry with snails.

Galangal is khàa in Thai.

Generally speaking, hãwy means "shellfish." So in this case, where the term is modified by khõm, which means "bitter," it suggests a shellfish that has a bitter taste. Didn't you find the snails slightly bitter? I do, and while that is something that I appreciate, a number of people that I have encouraged to try the dish do not.

Regards,
Erik M.

Edit: Now that I have read your above replies, I am doubly confused. I will ask Eddie, this week, before she leaves for Thailand.

* Anyone who has had a proper version of khanõm jiin náam yaa can attest to its singular taste profile. Frankly, I find it to be downright freakish.

IIRC*, Grachai is also known as 'lesser galanga(l)' and sometimes mislabelled as simply 'galanga(l)'

It is confusing. However, galangal is available fresh - but 'rhizome' is only available (in the US) frozen or dried; frozen apparently tasting closer to the fresh stuff.


*My recollection of information in K-L Unchit's "Dancing Shrimp"

The VI family had an early dinner at Yum Thai last night. Erik M's influence was not present in the overall crowd, but perhaps he was responsible for the greater amount of Thai customers there last night--three tables worth.

I may have confessed this before, but it is a bit of a bother to eat at Yum Thai with just the family. There are too many food needs, and often I compensate by ordering too much. For instance, our Oscar watching load ran to almost $60. Last night, I kept my needs a bit in restraint.

In the kidz catagory we got chicken satay. In the Condiment Queen and kidz catagory, we got pad see yu and chinese broc; in the CQ catagory, we got mixed seafood soup (po taek naam or burst fishtrap soup on the new translated menu, and in the CQ/Rob catagory, we got the beef garlic salad from the fareeng menu.

It was a VERY typical Yum Thai meal, or shall I say, all of the notable things were notable. The portion of Chinese brocolli was typically good but too small, so small, CQ complained. We got another portion only slightly larger. The beef garlic salad proved that the Thai menu does not contain all that is delicious at Yum Thai, and this may be my favorite dish here. Just sliced grilled flank steak, garlic, jalepenos and lime juice (more or less). The steak was very pleasantly red yesterday and the brute combination of those flavors is ideal. The soup was much more complex, sneaky hot, with an herbal overtone from fresh basil.

Its nice to have such a good restaurant so nearby.

sazerac wrote:IIRC*, Grachai is also known as 'lesser galanga(l)' and sometimes mislabelled as simply 'galanga(l)'

It is confusing. However, galangal is available fresh - but 'rhizome' is only available (in the US) frozen or dried; frozen apparently tasting closer to the fresh stuff.


*My recollection of information in K-L Unchit's "Dancing Shrimp"

Yes, that is true. However, it does very little to shed light on the situation, as the preponderance of galangal that is used by the Chicagoland Thai restaurant community is NOT purchased fresh. It is instead purchased pre-sliced and dried, or pre-sliced and frozen.

Erik M.

Vital Information wrote:It was a VERY typical Yum Thai meal, or shall I say, all of the notable things were notable.

My delight with the kaeng khûa hãwy khõm was somewhat moderated by an abysmal rendition of yam plaa dùk fuu (described by Erik M in Time Out Chicago as “hot and sweet salad of deep-fried shredded catfish”). My dish contained large, hard clumps of fried catfish that had none of the delicacy and cotton-candy dissolvability of “exploded catfish” at Spoon. Instead of eating fish-flavored shredded wheat it was more like chomping down on old granola.

Then again, it was a Saturday night, and we know that quality control at Yum seems to slip during busy hours.

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:My delight with the kaeng khûa hãwy khõm was somewhat moderated by an abysmal rendition of yam plaa dùk fuu (described by Erik M in Time Out Chicago as “hot and sweet salad of deep-fried shredded catfish”). My dish contained large, hard clumps of fried catfish that had none of the delicacy and cotton-candy dissolvability of “exploded catfish” at Spoon. Instead of eating fish-flavored shredded wheat it was more like chomping down on old granola.

I wasn't with you, so I cannot attest to what you describe, but in the event that what you had was not simply a bad yam plaa dùk fuu night at Yum Thai, David, I should note two things:

1) I don't care for Spoon's rendition of yam plaa dùk fuu, nor do any of my Thai friends. The reason being, apparently, the very same reason that it is beloved by so many faràng, i.e., its ethereal Captain Crunchiness.*

2) Yum was a tough nut to crack. By this I mean, Eddie and I went through a long, involved, and complex "dance" of sorts to negotiate my picks for the Time Out article.** I say "negotiate," because when I first apprised her of my picks, she countered by telling me that the items I selected were either no longer available or very labour-intensive, and, as such, not things that she was interested in serving with any frequency.*** Yam plaa dùk fuu was one of these items, but it was the one for which I absolutely stood my ground.

All of the above being said, I have always thoroughly enjoyed Yum's version of yam plaa dùk fuu and that is why it made my final cut. And, along with the kaeng khûa hãwy khõm, this is another item that I am obligated to bring back for certain city-dwelling Thai friends, whenever I go to Yum.

Lastly, if you get to Siam's House, you might want to make at least one departure from my list of recommendations, and that being to find a replacement for the phàt phrík khĩng plaa dùk fuu that I suggested. I describe this item on my S.H. translation as, "shredded and fried Catfish, with red curry paste and long beans." While it is quite distinct from a straight-up yam plaa dùk fuu, it is not likely enough so for you, David, as the fish for this item is prepared in a similar manner to that for the yam plaa dùk fuu at Yum Thai. For anyone else reading along, though, I will say that I spent some time in the kitchen at Siam's House last week, and the owners/cooks told me that this dish is their number one seller with their Thai patrons. I would encourage you to try it.

Regards,
Erik M.

* Hot Tip: If you really enjoy that taste, go and get yourself a bottle of palm juice. Sticky Rice carries it. This is the convenient, cup-holder-friendly version of Spoon's yam plaa dùk fuu.

** Yum was the only shop in which I was pointedly asked to change my initial picks. There was absolutely no negotiation/discussion of my selections in any other shop.

*** FWIW, I will say that her counterproposals included items like "lemon grass chicken with olive oil," and "rama salad."

Now, back to the business of the kaeng khûa hãwy khõm at Yum Thai and the presence of krà-chai therein.

Before talking to Eddie today, I took a very small and very informal survey in an attempt to square my instincts with professional opinion. Both Kristsana Moungkeow at Sticky Rice and Andy Aroonrasameruang at TAC Quick agreed with me that the presence of krà-chai in a mild red curry preparation such as kaeng khûa hãwy khõm would seem quite odd. Additionally, both of their opinions were in further accord with what I had suggested above. Namely, that while khàa, or galangal, is a traditional component in red curry pastes of all sorts, krà-chai, or Chinese keys/"rhizome," is not.

When I spoke with Eddie on the phone today, I was able to gather that, in the preparation of kaeng khûa hãwy khõm at Yum Thai, a premade commercial red curry paste is modified or enhanced somewhat by the inclusion of various other ingredients, including krà-chai. And, so, assuming that Yum Thai uses one of the most widely available commercial red curry pastes in their preparation of kaeng khûa hãwy khõm--such as the Maesri, Mae Ploy, or Suree brands--this dish will also contain khàa, or galangal.

Regards,
Erik M.

Erik M. wrote: And, so, assuming that Yum Thai uses one of the most widely available commercial red curry pastes in their preparation of kaeng khûa hãwy khõm--such as the Maesri, Mae Ploy, or Suree brands--this dish will also contain khàa, or galangal.

Regards,
Erik M.

Which explains the aromatic presence of camphor, does it not?

I must admit, I'm a little disappointed to hear that Yum Thai uses a prepackaged paste, but perhaps I should not be.

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:Which explains the aromatic presence of camphor, does it not?

Oh, sure.

David Hammond wrote:I must admit, I'm a little disappointed to hear that Yum Thai uses a prepackaged paste, but perhaps I should not be.

Eddie would not admit it outright, but I am nearly certain that I described the procedure at Yum Thai accurately. All things considered, David, I have found that a little "tuning up" of a commercial paste product can do wonders. And, at any rate, the cost to the restaurants, in terms of time and labour, generally precludes the use of a handmade paste.

Oh, I should say too, that the reason restaurants often resort to the use of frozen, dried, canned, and jarred products has just as much to do with consistency as it does with material and labour costs. By way of a convenient example, the Thai red curries served in stateside restaurants--almost without exception--require a curry paste which includes galangal. So, what happens during those times (or in those urban markets) when (where) fresh galangal is not available, or is not of sufficient quality?

Regards,
Erik M.

Erik M. wrote:So, what happens during those times (or in those urban markets) when (where) fresh galangal is not available, or is not of sufficient quality?

I'm going to pursue this issue just a little further: isn't fresh galangal available in Chicago most of the time?

If I were Yum, and if I were getting a pretty good response from a packaged curry, I'd probably stick with it. More shelf stable. Probably less expensive in the long run. Why not?

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:I'm going to pursue this issue just a little further: isn't fresh galangal available in Chicago most of the time?

If I were Yum, and if I were getting a pretty good response from a packaged curry, I'd probably stick with it. More shelf stable. Probably less expensive in the long run. Why not?

Yes, fresh galangal is generally available in Chicago year-round, but only from a very limited number of sources. So, it still remains relatively "scarce," and this scarcity is readily reflected in its price. When you factor in the additional handling costs to the restaurants, it often makes better economic sense to use a more stable product.*

Let me return to the example of the red curry paste. Along with fresh galangal, red curry pastes generally contain fresh lemongrass, fresh lime leaves, fresh coriander root, fresh red shallot, and fresh garlic. So, given the number of "exotic" ingredients (all with varying degrees of availability and quality), you can probably see why it often makes better sense (economic or otherwise) for the restaurants to use a readily available commercial paste product.

Regards,
Erik M.

* By "product," I mean to include the dried and frozen versions of galangal, as well as the many tinned or jarred products which might include galangal in some form.

I have it on good source, that Yum Thai uses commercial pastes for certain dishes. My source told me that a lot of the "skill" and hence the final taste is in the treatment of the paste as well as the addition of a few secret extras. It certainly works. For instance, the fried catfish with red curry paste is one of my favorite dishes at Yum Thai.

Rob

Kra-chai sounds like Kaempferia rotunda (I'm pretty sure from the description & bhuichampa is the nepalese name for kra-chai according to the glossary link)).

http://www.ganeshvilla.com/gingers/kaem ... otunda.htm

Its rarely used in indian cooking, but it is component of many indian auyervedic medicines & I'm aware of programs to screen extracts for possible anti-cancer (& other) agents (I should add I work in the pharma industry). Its relatively easy to buy plants from nurseries, & is widely cultivated in India (admitedly for medicinal purposes). It might be easier to find in indian stores...

Data Point: Eddie is back from Thailand.

I paid Yum a visit, Saturday, on my way to a party in Oak Park, and while every single one of my top requests from the Thai Menu was mysteriously "unavailable,"* I still managed to have a good meal:

mũu pîng : grilled pork skewers with a sweet and sour dipping sauce
kha-náa plaa khẽm : Chinese broccoli stir-fried with salty fish
phàt pèt yâang krà-phrao kràwp : stir-fried roast duck with crispy holy basil leaves

E.M.


* After receiving my order, Eddie came out of the kitchen to tell me that a large contingent of Thais from out-of-state had visited earlier in the day, managing to exhaust a number of her Thai pantry staples.

Erik M. wrote:Data Point: Eddie is back from Thailand.

I paid Yum a visit, Saturday, on my way to a party in Oak Park, and while every single one of my top requests from the Thai Menu was mysteriously "unavailable,"* I still managed to have a good meal:

mũu pîng : grilled pork skewers with a sweet and sour dipping sauce
kha-náa plaa khẽm : Chinese broccoli stir-fried with salty fish
phàt pèt yâang krà-phrao kràwp : stir-fried roast duck with crispy holy basil leaves

E.M.


* After receiving my order, Eddie came out of the kitchen to tell me that a large contingent of Thais from out-of-state had visited earlier in the day, managing to exhaust a number of her Thai pantry staples.

That's good to hear. I've been holding out on going until I knew.

As I've noted before, to me, there is one "safe" dish, one dish from the regular menu that is always outstanding, and that is the beef garlic salad (extra extras--garlic/jalepenos), so push came to shove I'd just make a meal of that with some rice.

Rob

Erik M. wrote:Data Point: Eddie is back from Thailand.

great, is her mom back in the kitchen?

zim wrote:

Erik M. wrote:Data Point: Eddie is back from Thailand.

great, is her mom back in the kitchen?

No, she is not.

Zim, you have undoubtedly been to Yum Thai more times than I have, so tell me, do you know the difference?

I mean, was there a period of time in your memory when Yum was consistently better than another? And, if so, can you--with any assurance--attribute such a period of time to the cooking of Eddie's mother?

E.M.

Erik M. wrote:

zim wrote:

Erik M. wrote:Data Point: Eddie is back from Thailand.

great, is her mom back in the kitchen?

No, she is not.

Zim, you have undoubtedly been to Yum Thai more times than I have, so tell me, do you know the difference?

I mean, was there a period of time in your memory when Yum was consistently better than another? And, if so, can you--with any assurance--attribute such a period of time to the cooking of Eddie's mother?

E.M.

Well, one thing I do know, is that Yum Thai has always been an inconsistent restaurant. As documented on Chowhound (kinda the first outing of a "secret" menu*), Yum Thai could produce wide variance in dinners based on what was ordered and how much one invoked certain key phrases. It has been clear for a while, based on meals and conversations, that Yum Thai is capable of delivering multiple levels of food.

Another thing that I have seen over many visits, that Yum Thai can bog down in the face of a particularly busy night, especially when they are being taxed by take-out/delivery orders (which can be the bulk of their revenue). I've mentioned before, that generally, one can be luckier at lunch.

I've always liked Yum Thai and advocated it a lot (cough, GNR, cough, cough), but do not think it is quite in the league of Spoon, Thai Avenue or TAC, and one of the reasons is the inconsistency as described above.

Rob

*Calvin Trillin and his stories of UC Professor McCawley probably first made the "secret" menu famous. The Yum Thai translation on Chowhound was, like "our" first translation. Things surely have grown since (no?).

Erik M. wrote:
Zim, you have undoubtedly been to Yum Thai more times than I have, so tell me, do you know the difference?

Actually, I'm not sure I have, it's right near my dad's but for a good long time we would eat with both and my sister out there, and as she has food allergies to somethng in thai food, we avoided yum thai. That being said we have eaten there a few times when she has not been present

Erik M. wrote:I mean, was there a period of time in your memory when Yum was consistently better than another? And, if so, can you--with any assurance--attribute such a period of time to the cooking of Eddie's mother?.

I remember a period some time ago, maybe 1 year and half-2 years ago when we ate there quite a few times in a short time span. During that period we had a couple times that were less good, if memory serves correct they were specifically dishes that had pounded dried shrimp in them, which all occurred on sundays - I couldn't figure out why, until you I think, told me that her mom doesn't work on sundays.

Since then we've eaten there a few times but always during the week, and I've never asked who was in the kitchen.