Tucson AZ [and, oh pizza too]

I'm heading to Tucson tomorrow for 4 days. Willing to travel for the distinctive...price not an issue. Recommendations?

Two places we had excellent Mexican meals were Mi Nidito and Pico de Gallo, both in South Tucson. Pico de Gallo is a small, order at the counter taqueria with a menu on a board, and a few tables. Mi Nidito is larger with more formal seating, waiters,etc.
Sorry, I can't remember what I had at either place I just know they were both well worth going a little out of our way for, and I would head for either anytime I get back to Tucson.

Mi Nidito
1813 S. 4th Ave.,
Phone: 520/622-5081

Pico de Gallo
2618 S. 6th Ave.
Tucson, Arizon

I recommend Pizzaria Bianco...If for nothing else than their fresh made-in-house mozzerella. Take a look at the linked thread, then post back here and let us know what you think. I would welcome a second opinion. This place came so highly recommended, that I would hate to base my opinion on just one visit on what might have been an off night. They've got all the right pieces to make a stellar pizza.

stevez wrote:...Take a look at the linked thread, then post back here and let us know what you think. I would welcome a second opinion. This place came so highly recommended, that I would hate to base my opinion on just one visit on what might have been an off night. They've got all the right pieces to make a stellar pizza.

Stevez:

You're very fair in what you say; your experience was one time and you won't bash the place on the basis of a single unhappy experience. That's as it should be. But I must say, that the qualification should be especially strong since you ordered what I would consider a quirky, even busy pizza. Smoked mozzarella is a 'new age' thing to put on top of a pizza and I could well imagine that the smokiness of the cheese ended up masking good things going on in the background. One must wonder whether it wasn't a matter of an off-night or rather just a conceptually off, new-age pizza. And, incidentally, one with a really stupid name.

For the comparison of pizzas, one must take a simple standard as the basis, and that should be a margherita.

Anyway, nice picture: the crust of the Bianco's pie looks great -- authentically Neapolitan in its breadiness baked at high heat.

I hope Reijo gets there and gives a further report. There are other more obvious or basic reasons for one to go to Phoenix than pizza, but the presence of Bianco's looks to be like a reasonable added incentive.

But is Reijo going up to Phoenix at all on this trip?

Antonius

Antonius wrote:You're very fair in what you say; your experience was one time and you won't bash the place on the basis of a single unhappy experience. That's as it should be. But I must say, that the qualification should be especially strong since you ordered what I would consider a quirky, even busy pizza. Smoked mozzarella is a 'new age' thing to put on top of a pizza and I could well imagine that the smokiness of the cheese ended up masking good things going on in the background. One must wonder whether it wasn't a matter of an off-night or rather just a conceptually off, new-age pizza. And, incidentally, one with a really stupid name.

For the comparison of pizzas, one must take a simple standard as the basis, and that should be a margherita.

I agree about a simple standard, but for me the simple standard is good old sausage and cheese. I have no East Coast/Euro-pretensions about what makes the pizza I like. I'm from Chicago and am a firm adherant to our style of pizza. (Although I also enjoy other styles when done well). I agree with you. Smoked mozerrella was a misguided attempt at something different (even though they smoke their own mozzerella every morning.) Nevertheless, the real reason I ordered that particular pizza is bacause that was the one so highly recommended in the linked Steingarten article from Vogue.

In terms of a recommendation in Tucson rather than Phoenix...I got nuttin'. Hopefully a stopover in Phoenix will be happening, which is often the case.

Steve:

You said the smoke of the cheese was overpowering and tasted as if it was chemically done. Given other facts of that operation, it seems unimaginable that they used chemical smoke. Was it just plain old oversmoked? That's too bad but I think it's not all that surprising. There's still too much of the more-is-better mentality in American takes on Old World items that have only recently gained a measure of popularity here. I'm thinking now also of, for example, microbrew attempts at doing Belgian beers; they're always too whatever...

Yes, I understand you are loyal to your native town's pizza style... I think gradually a sort peace of pizza (pace di pizza) is being developed on LTH, where we all get to declare our loyalties to our own idea of what is best, without needing to get genuinely hostile... A little vociferousness suffices...

But for comparison purposes, sausage and cheese isn't basic enough. As has been discussed in another thread of late, sausage is not a traditionally favoured topping in the East and is essentially unknown as such in the Mecca of pizzadom, Napoli.

Margherita is the best for comparison of basics: crust, tomato element, cheese, herb.

I loved those pictures you had from Bianco's.

A

I have no specific Tuscon food advice. I was there on business once, and I remember nothing of special note foodwise. I do, however, have a continued memory of one thing. Being cold. I was there just this time of year, the week before Thanksgiving. Somehow, I imagined Tuscon to be still rather warm. No. Quite the opposite. Dress warm.

Rob

Antonius wrote:Steve:

You said the smoke of the cheese was overpowering and tasted as if it was chemically done. Given other facts of that operation, it seems unimaginable that they used chemical smoke. Was it just plain old oversmoked?

I didn't mean to give the impression that the smokey taste was chemically induced. Oversmoked is exactly what the problem was. So much so, that I used the liquid smoke comparison to indicate the extent of the smoky taste. This pie would have nicely stood on its own if the cheese was not smoked at all, thus allowing the subtle smokey taste from the oven and the taste of the very high quality ingredients to shine through. Pizzaria Bianco was great in every way except for this particular pizza. I just didn't like it. As I said in the original thread, maybe it was just me, because the care taken in every step of preparation, from ingredient selection to the construction of the oven itself was done with great thoughtfulness and love.

Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion on what makes great pizza. Everyone has their own prejuduce when it comes to that subject, and there will never be an end to the (friendly) debate. For me the mecca of pizzadom is Chicago, not Napels. Sure pizza was invented there, but it was perfected here.

stevez wrote:For me the mecca of pizzadom is Chicago, not Napels. Sure pizza was invented there, but it was perfected here.

Fair enough... But have you been to Naples? Maybe there should be an LTH international pizzathon... Phoenix, Chicago, New Haven, New York, Naples.

A

Antonius wrote:

stevez wrote:For me the mecca of pizzadom is Chicago, not Napels. Sure pizza was invented there, but it was perfected here.

Fair enough... But have you been to Naples?
A

Yes

Continuing in the vein of the Pizzeria Bianco thread-hijack: Antonius - I've had the margherita at Da Michele in Naples and at Bianco in Phoenix. Naples was better. Bianco was very good. I would note that the smoked mozzarella is not on every pizza that comes out of Tony Bianco's oven, so I wouldn't judge the place too harshly on the basis of one topping on one pizza. I've been to Bianco 3 times, every time it was splendid. I'd part ways with you, Antonius, on the statement that the Margherita is the benchmark that one should always use when judging pizza. You risk missing something truly special if you use a blanket benchmark at every place - like the white clam pie at Pepe's.

And with all due respect to SteveZ, i find your statement about chicago pizza being the exemplar of the form to be absolutely mind-boggling, especially given the wide spectrum of pizza available in this city, and the sheer number of places that show total disdain for the value of a hand made crust. Which place in Chicago serves this apotheosis of pizza? Which chicago-style does it make?

Seth Zurer wrote:And with all due respect to SteveZ, i find your statement about chicago pizza being the exemplar of the form to be absolutely mind-boggling, especially given the wide spectrum of pizza available in this city, and the sheer number of places that show total disdain for the value of a hand made crust. Which place in Chicago serves this apotheosis of pizza? Which chicago-style does it make?

It's the very spectrum of types of pizza that you mention that sets Chicago apart. There are very great examples of every different style here (there are also, as you point out, bad pizzas to be had as well). For thin crust, there's Vito & Nicks, Marie's and Candelight. For Chicago deep dish, there's Malnatti's, and Pequods. The list goes on and on. Chicago isn't famous for Pizza for nothing.

P.S. I appreciate a good pie when I can get it, no matter where. Just don't ask me to eat pizza in the middle of Arkansas.

I just re-read this thread and I am concerned that things are getting carried to a level that I do not want to reach. I just want to make it clear that I am not dissing Bianco's...after all, I recommended it in the first place. I only said that I did not particularly like my one pizza on my one visit. It was plain as day that this is a quality place that allows Tony Bianco to showcase his considerable skills. From my first posting until now, I have continually stressed that this place is worth a visit. If I was in Phoenix long enough, I surely would have made a repeat visit and without question ordered a different kind of pizza (or at least asked for a different kind of cheese, as the sausage was home made and quite good).

As for the rest of the discussion about what kind of pizza is real/best...that all distraction as for as I'm concerned. This debate has been going on for many years and it isn't about to stop now. Everybody has an opinion or a perspective that we are coming from. At least in our little LTH community, I don't think anyone is closed minded enough to fail to appreciate a well prepared pizza not matter what the style (or how it's cut).

Poor reijo. All he/she wanted was a place to eat in Tucson.

Seth Zurer wrote: I'd part ways with you, Antonius, on the statement that the Margherita is the benchmark that one should always use when judging pizza. You risk missing something truly special if you use a blanket benchmark at every place - like the white clam pie at Pepe's.

You have clearly misread what I wrote.

If one is comparing things, it is best to have as few variables as possible. Since virtually every serious pizza maker makes some manner of margherita, loosely defined as a pizza dressed just with olive oil, cheese, tomato, garlic and herb, it seems to me that this sort of pie is most suitable to the purpose of comparison. The suitability is only increased when one considers the fact that such a pie is pleasing to virtually all pizza eaters, even if they prefer some more complex or funadmentally different manner of dressing on their pizzas.

A white clam pizza from Pepe's, it seems to me, can only be compared reasonably with other pizzas from said institution, or else with other white clam pizzas, wherever they might be produced. Or perhaps with other pizzas of a style defined, for example, as pizzas with seafood. But a white clam pizza surely cannot be considered a common, basic type that facilitates broad comparison.

Apologies to Reijo for the digression.

Antonius

Antonius wrote:If one is comparing things, it is best to have as few variables as possible.

To join in the fray, I would decontruct the pizza even further to the crust. You can pile on all manner of toppings, but IMHO the crust is the heart and soul of any pizza and, thick or thin, it is how I judge the skills of the pizza maker. I used to think both Da Michele and Chris Bianco represented the non plus ultra in crusts until I had a pizza last month in a little non-descript place in Genoa made by an 18-year old girl.

Forgive me for furthering the hijacking of this thread, but I can wax pedantic about pizza-making for hours. Maybe a new thread over in the "Shopping and Cooking" forum should be started?

Bill/SFNM

Bill/SFNM wrote:To join in the fray, I would decontruct the pizza even further to the crust. You can pile on all manner of toppings, but IMHO the crust is the heart and soul of any pizza and, thick or thin, it is how I judge the skills of the pizza maker.Bill/SFNM

I have written on more than one occasion that the Neapolitan or, for that matter, Italian concept of pizza -- and the one to which I subscribe -- is that it is (flat) bread which is flavoured with relatively small amounts of a few things on top. This is, of course, but one way of looking at pizza and many reject it, as can be seen in the debates which abound here and elsewhere. De gustibus non est disputandum.

If you mean to say above that the crust is the central feature on which the quality of a pizza is to be judged I agree whole-heartedly. This follows logically on the previously mentioned 'pizza concept'. But if you mean we should get pizzaiuoli to bake up crusts with nothing on them for our comparisons, I disagree, in part because the presence of oil and tomato and cheese or whatever on top, changes how the bread (or pastry ) bakes up, but also in part because the quality of the pizza also involves the interaction of elements. The quality of the sum could conceivably transcend the quality of the parts, at least theoretically speaking.

I should mention that I have had pizzas which were very close to being naked, in the sense that the toppings were such that there was far from total coverage. These days, when one sees such things in the States, they are generally called focaccia -- flat bread, oil, a little herb, perhaps a few bits of anchovy or thin slices of tomato.

Antonius

Antonius wrote:If you mean to say above that the crust is the central feature on which the quality of a pizza is to be judged I agree whole-heartedly.

Yes, that it exactly what I mean. And, although I enjoy all kinds things called "pizzas" - even some pretty extreme departures from the classic - the Neapolitan concept as executed by a skilled pizzailo is by far my favorite.

But regardless of the style or topping, the unadorned cornicione or edge, when present, is the best indicator of the quality of the crust. It is my favorite part and I linger over it lovingly. (It astounds me to see a plate with uneaten edges).

Confessions of a pizza snob.

Like a wine taster, I have a list of criteria for the crust:

1. Appearance. I look for a golden crust with char marks on both the edge and the bottom of the crust as these contribute to the flavor of the entire pizza. There doesn't have to be much charring; too much can make it bitter. I was surprised how little charring there was on the bottom of the pizzas at Da Michele. It is OK if a little high-quality EVO oil is brushed on the edge after baking a la Chez Panisse.

2. Flavor. How do you describe the flavor of a glorious crust? The best have had a faint buttery undertone and a hit of smoke.

3. Texture. Not bread! Just the right combination of crispy and chewy.

It is very difficult to achieve great pizza consistently. That's why there is so much mediocre pizza. Ingredients and techniques have been dumbed down so that minimum wage employees can easily turn them out.

Bill/SFNM

Bill/SFNM wrote:3. Texture. Not bread! Just the right combination of crispy and chewy.

Bill:

Not bread???

Crispy, chewy; that's what good Italian bread is (flour, water, yeast, salt and basta). The flatness and high temperature baking helps exaggerate or enhance those qualities but they're there in superior, southern Italian peasant bread, especially at the butt end of a filone, the bit that traditionally belongs to the pater familias. Happily, at least in Chicago, that's me (back with my folks in Jersey, it still always goes to my father).

You're right about seeing a plate with the crust left behind. People who do things like that should not be allowed to reproduce.

Happy Thanksgiving a tutti quanti!

A

Been there prolly 30 times. Here are the places I go back to:

CAFE POCA COSA
88 E. Broadway Blvd., beside the Clarion Santa Rita
Phone: 520/622-6400
Really good Mexican. The Frontera Grill of Tucson.


CAFE TERRA COTTA
3500 E. Sunrise Dr.
Phone: 520/577-8100
Southwestern; a bit more upscale than the others. Try the duck.


EL CHARRO CAFE
311 N. Court Ave.
Phone: 520/622-1922
Mexican; been in Tucson since 1922 (!). I like it a lot, though some people think it's cliched. Feh.


LA FUENTE
1749 North Oracle Road
(520) 623-8659
I've been going here for nearly 35 years now. Good lunch place. Try the mole poblano enchiladas.

TOHONO CHUL TEA ROOM
Tohono Chul Park, 7366 N. Paseo del Norte
Phone: 520/797-1222
A beautiful breakfast/lunch place in a lovely public garden; you may have seen it featured on "The Victoy Garden" a couple years back. Here's more:
http://www.tohonochulpark.org/tea2.html


No pizza suggestions. Pizza is for UofA kids; Tucson is for great Sonoran style Mexican food and Southwestern cuisine - things you CANNOT find in Chicago!!!!

sundevilpeg wrote:No pizza suggestions. Tucson is for great Sonoran style Mexican food and Southwestern cuisine - things you CANNOT find in Chicago!!!!

thanks for no pizza suggestions.
Anyone else have other Tucson suggestions?

Anyone else have other Tucson suggestions?

Looking for some myself, will be in Tucson later this afternoon.

JSM

a friend recommended Terra Cotta which more than a few people have emailed me to try.

Some other notes from a person who I've dined with before when I asked her about Tucson:

Wildflower is pretty good too. But probably the best little restaurant in Tucson is The Dish Bistro, which has only a handful of tables and is tucked behind the RumRunner Wine and Cheese Shop downtown. You need reservations because there are so few tables.

I just got back from Tucson and took a couple shots from lunch at Cafe Poca Cosa. Maybe it's my imagination but the taste of Mexican food in the Southwest can't be duplicated up north. This turned out to be a memorable meal.

The lunch menu:


The carne asada with cilantro cream sauce and roasted serrano's:


The chef's plate which included the tamale pie with asparagus cream sauce, shredded beef in beer with arbol chiles, bay leafs and peppercorns and the chicken in savory ancho chile sauce and cheese.

Heading out to Tucson for a much needed break with a 4 year old right after the holidays. Will definitely make (at least) one stop at Mi Nidito. What else do people like these days?

Thanks!