NYC Pizza Tour

A few weekends ago, the lovely trixie-pea and I were fortunate enough to go to the Big Apple for the sole purpose of trying some classic NY versions of Neapolitan pizza. Before this trip, the only well known NYC pizzeria we had tried was Lombardi’s. On that experience alone, I was eager to try as many examples as I could. But what really gave me the impetus to motivate was seeing a lecture by Ed Levine (April 12, 2005) at Kendall College. Mr. Levine was promoting his new book, “Pizza: A Slice of Heaven” and of course, I bought a copy. I got caught up in his vivid description of the New York pizza scene as well as the other great pizzerias he had tried throughout the country. It would seem that many of the great pizzerias in NYC have their roots planted deep in the original Lombardi’s bakery started by Gennaro Lombardi in 1904.

TOTONNO’S
(Upper Eastside on 2nd Ave between 80th and 81st St.)

The first pizza we tried had to be Totonno’s. It’s considered by many East Coast pizza enthusiasts to be one of the greats of the New York Neapolitan pizza tradition. As described in Ed Levine’s book “Pizza”, Antony (Totonno) Pero broke off from the famous Lombardi bakery in the 1920s and started up Totonno’s in Coney Island. The location we went to is their second store located on the upper east side of Manhattan, which was started sometime in the 80’s. One of the beautiful things about Totonno’s is their use of an old coal-fueled brick oven. I’m skeptical that the actual coal produces better pizza, but it certainly produces better atmosphere. The joints that were able to get their ovens grandfathered into code are worth a trip to just to see the spectacle.


We ordered both the Margherita Pizza...

and the Neapolitan.


At first bite it became crystal clear that the bread is the basis for everything great in this style of pizza. The crust could have easily been enjoyed on its own. The house-made, fresh mozzarella, San Marzano tomatoes, and fresh basil acted as perfect accents to the crust. I loved the way they distributed the mozzarella evenly creating a wonderful milky film throughout instead of the usual globs of cheese one so often finds. The Neapolitan pizza was topped with only tomato, garlic and olive oil. We thought the tomato product was under seasoned, and quickly remedied that with a sprinkle of salt.
The thing that brought me to my knees, though, was their ability to make a pizza that is dime-thin with a crispy-chew. (Note from trixie-pea: It was like a study in miniaturization—you take the perfect texture profile for a loaf of bread—crisp crust, tender, but resilient crumb—and then reduce it down to the thickness of a dime. I don’t know how this is possible without turning the whole thing into a bone-dry cracker.) After 20 minutes the center of the pie was still perfectly crisp. You can see the charred bubbles caused from the high temperature ovens. Because of the extreme temperatures, it only takes but a few minutes to complete a pie. The only question mark one might have about this pizza is the thickness of its edge. You get done eating this gorgeous piece of pizza and then you have this giant ring of bread left over. Which, isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’s just aesthetically odd. Overall, Totonno’s pizza is a thing of beauty. Note the blob of sauce located on trixie’s cheek.




UNA PIZZA NAPOLETANA
(1st Ave & 12th St.)

Even though I would consider this a designer pizzeria (I’m not so sure about this…), the attention to detail here is amazing. Unlike the other places we were seeking out on this pizza venture, Una Pizza Napoletana is owned and operated by a relative newcomer, Anthony Mangieri. But being the new guy on the block didn’t mean anything when you’re talking about flawless, borderline maniacal execution. The man is a purist. Every element of his pizza making is classically Neapolitan. Take a look at his menu. Like I said above, good New York pizza is about the greatness of the bread and Mangieri is the master. He uses a sourdough mother to leaven his dough instead of yeast, and he mixes everything by hand. There are no machines or devices in this place at all. At the base of his oven are wood shavings to stoke the fire.

We ordered two of his four types of pizzas.
The Filleti

Which consisted of fresh split cherry tomatoes, fresh buffalo mozzarella, fresh basil, fresh garlic, sea salt, and a wonderful extra-virgin olive oil drizzled over the pie and the Bianco, which was exactly the same sans the cherry tomatoes.

The crust alone is art. The sourdough imparts a heady, slightly acidic tang to the dough. His use of super premium fresh ingredients didn’t hurt the mission either. What I didn’t like about the pizzas we ordered was, unlike Tottono’s, UPN’s pizza became soggy in the middle because of the drizzling of olive oil and blotches of thicker, full-fat mozzarella. I found this less than optimum. If I was only evaluating pure flavor, I would give this pizza the edge over the rest. It tasted so fresh and so vibrant—one of the best things I’ve ever tasted. But I would agree with PIGMON, about the sogginess/oiliness. You had to eat these pies with a knife and fork. In fact that’s how they are served. Although I found myself mopping up the oil with the crust, because it tasted so damn good. Also, his pizzas would end up costing us almost twice as much as the other places we would try. He imports nearly all of his ingredients, from the sea salt to the flour to the cheese, which surely accounts for the extra bucks. I’m not quite sure its justified in a town that has Lombardi’s, Tottono’s,etc. I’m not quite sure he is trying to compete with these guys. The product he is offering is so different. I think apples and oranges. Nonetheless, this is definitely a place any serious pizza lover should try. If you are a purist, this place is for you.



NICK’S
(Upper Eastside on 2nd Ave & 94th St.)

In 1994, Nick Angelis opened his original pizzeria in Queens and has since opened up two more stores. Another branch of the family bought the "Patsy's" name and started the mini-chain under that name. The well-known Patsy Grimaldi’s (the original Patsy’s newphew) has nothing to do with these guys. In fact, Grimaldi’s had to change their name from Patsy’s due to legal strife between the Angelis’ and the Grimaldi’s! Very confusing.

Unlike Totonno’s (coal) and Una Pizza Napoletana (wood), Nick’s uses straightforward gas ovens. These ovens are designed to be able to reach the high temperatures (900-1000 degrees) needed to make first-rate pizza. Although their crust isn’t quite as amazing as at UPN, it is still exceptional, striking a balance between superior structure and deliciousness. Once again, another example of well made bread. The crust’s end was a pleasure to eat on its own; not too overwhelmingly thick as to make it a chore to eat alone. I believe what sets Nick’s apart, though, is their judicious proportions and even distribution of fresh ingredients on their pies. We ordered 2 pizzas:
the Margharita

And the Sausage.

The sausage was stellar and the tomato sauce was the best we had. When we walked in they had just put in a giant tray of Roma tomatoes into the back of the oven to reduce into sauce.

Of the three places, Nick’s was my favorite (mine too), but just barely!


PATSY’S PIZZERIA
(Harlem- 1st Ave between 117th & 118th Sts)

In 1933, Pasquale (Patsy) Lancieri opened his legendary pizzeria, the original Patsy’s. As Levine describes, “Patsy’s is the only pizzeria left in a century-old Italian neighborhood that once was a hotbed of pizza activity.” This is the namesake of the numerous pizzerias that exist today in NY. Like Totonno’s, Patsy’s has always used coal-burning ovens. This place reeks of history.

Unfortunately on this day, Patsy’s amazing history and its ability to make a quality pizza diverge significantly. For those of you whose image of New York pizza is a low quality, sloppy mess, this place would only reinforce those notions. Although the slice was wafer thin, the use of large amounts of aged mozzarella rendered the crust into a gloppy pizza stew. This was a two bite and “call in the lefty reliever” experience. (Interestingly, we had no problem finding someone to claim all three pieces of partially eaten slices.)
What shocks me is that I read nothing but great things about the place. Who knows--maybe an off day, but I doubt it.

Trying four pizzerias in two days and feeling like three were some of the best things you’ve ever put into your mouth tells me that our New York weekend was a success!



PIGMON & trixie-pea

Great report!!

That sounds like it was alot of fun.

A question: How, exactly, did you settle on those particular establishments?

Regards,
E.

PIGMON wrote:What I didn’t like about the pizzas we ordered was, unlike Tottono’s, UPN’s pizza became soggy in the middle because of the drizzling of olive oil and blotches of thicker, full-fat mozzarella.

Great report! I've noticed something similar. In my quest to bake the perfect Neapolitan pizza, the very best pies do seem to get soft or soggy quicker. The target I'm aiming for has a crust like that of Da Michele in Naples that is on the fluffy side rather than bread-like and it does tend to absorb drizzled oils and cheese oils quicker. But even the soggy bites are heavenly. In the pizzerias I visited in Naples, such pizzas were eaten with knife and fork by the locals.

Bill/SFNM

Great post. I'm glad we gave you a proper send off to New York stuffed with an Italian Beef.

I definitely need to plan a pizza tour in New York.

I also look forward to Bill's pizza experiments. I'm sure his pizza failures will rank right up at the top of many "great pizza" lists.

Outstanding photos and excellent discussion. Many thanks to you both!

***

I hope neither the report above nor anything I or others say below will lead this thread in the direction of debate about New York vs. Chicago styles: champions of the Chicago style (and other Americanised styles) have had some discussions in recent times here without significant interference from champions of other styles.

That said, yes, yes, yes, or est! est! est!. This stuff is the real thing and by that I mean it is an artisanal product, not industrial. And it should, of course, be kept in mind that what the pizzaioli in the above places and others of their ilk (e.g. Lombardi's) make is clearly Neapolitan pizza or the New York take on Neapolitan pizza and thus it is not to be equated with the products of industrial slice joints, stuff that is also often referred to or thought of as "New York Style." There are, as has been discussed elsewhere on the board, some general connexions or similarities between Neapolitan pizza, top-level old-school (metro-)New York Neapolitan pizza and at least some of the lesser old-style neighbourhood parlours overagainst, say, Chicago style or general American style, but lots of, surely the majority of, New York slice joints nowadays turn out stuff that is a far-cry in quality from the old, Italian neighbourhood stuff. That NY street pizza is still generally different from Chicago style and Pappa Dom's Hut pizza but it's also (increasingly) different from the old school stuff.

***

Pigmon, I think you would agree with me that pizza is first and foremost bread (with a little stuff on it).

The other day, we were talking about pizza and its relationship to bread and that set me off on my schpiel about how, whatever the rest of the world thinks about Italian cuisine and the Italian obsession with pasta, for most of us bread remains the fundamental and most beloved, most important foodstuff and the only one that one cannot do without.

Reflecting further on this, I see more clearly why I (and many others) have such a strongly negative reaction to the pastry-like crust favoured in some parts of the world -- in part, it divorces pizza from its special, magical rôle as superbread. And surely this difference in the quality of the crust as well as the lack of a spiritual tie to "the staff of life" plays a major part in the (over-)emphasis on 'toppings'.

Superbread. Certainly special bread. Good pizza cannot be said to be a thing that one can make quickly but within the world of bread it is the form that is most quickly made. And this quality has been reinforced with the use of ever higher temperatures in the ovens dedicated first and foremost to pizza-making.

It occurs to me the following four-part analogy may be useful: To the Neapolitan, in some senses at least, pizza is to basic bread as fresh pasta is to dried pasta. Of course, there are some points where the analogy doesn't work but quite a few where it does.

***

Bill/SFNM wrote:

PIGMON wrote:What I didn’t like about the pizzas we ordered was, unlike Tottono’s, UPN’s pizza became soggy in the middle because of the drizzling of olive oil and blotches of thicker, full-fat mozzarella.

Great report! I've noticed something similar. In my quest to bake the perfect Neapolitan pizza, the very best pies do seem to get soft or soggy quicker. The target I'm aiming for has a crust like that of Da Michele in Naples that is on the fluffy side rather than bread-like and it does tend to absorb drizzled oils and cheese oils quicker. But even the soggy bites are heavenly. In the pizzerias I visited in Naples, such pizzas were eaten with knife and fork by the locals.
Bill/SFNM

For me, it's a question of degree. A degree of sogginess in the middle is inevitable and, to my mind good, for one of the wonderful, magical things about pizza is the range of tastes and textures that one gets from egde to centre. That said, there can well be excessive sogginess, to the point where the crust loses all character and that can be bad. Obviously, this effect is dependent in large measure on how thin one stretches the centre out to be. When I make pizza at home, I get it thin at the centre and accept/anticipate the resulting floppiness and, if left standing for very long, sogginess. We use the knife and fork approach but folding at base and, if need be, folding the tip back will do the trick for free-style consumption (if the tip even survives the lift up from the plate).

***

Thanks again to Pigmon and Trixie-Pea for a wonderful report. (I suddenly got an urge to go visit my folks back east... )

Antonius

All right, here's my question. If the best New York pizzas are Neapolitan pizzas, is there such a thing as a good New York pizza?

I'm not being needlessly provocative here. But these pizzas look very much like pizzas I've had in various parts of Europe (Paris, Nice, Florence) and not unlike pizzas locally which aim for European-ness (Scoozi, Pizza DOC). They apparently behave like them too, getting soggy in the middle (in Europe they often hasten this process with an egg in the middle).

What they look much less like is "New York pizza," that is, both the slices available on any corner from a place calling itself Ray's, and the slices in the Chicago area which claim to be New York style (e.g., Santullo's, the late New York Pizza, etc.) The styrofoamy French bread crust, the sweetish sauce, the large pie cooked in an industrial oven at a relatively low temperature and reheated-- it's a style, all right, but is it a good one?

So I guess my question is, you have artisanal ways of making a thin crust in the European manner, and you have industrial ways of cranking out mediocre pies, and is there a New York pizza which is readily distinguishable from the first, and yet not mediocre or worse like the second? Chicago thin crust, it seems to me, is its own thing quite different from a Euro-pie, and often excellent. I'm not so sure New York has its own style that's really good-- as opposed to having some really good pizza makers in the European tradition.

Mike G wrote:So I guess my question is, you have artisanal ways of making a thin crust in the European manner, and you have industrial ways of cranking out mediocre pies, and is there a New York pizza which is readily distinguishable from the first, and yet not mediocre or worse like the second? Chicago thin crust, it seems to me, is its own thing quite different from a Euro-pie, and often excellent. I'm not so sure New York has its own style that's really good-- as opposed to having some really good pizza makers in the European tradition.

As I said above, there is such a class of places, though it admittedly grows ever smaller. Between the really serious old school places which are a direct continuation of Neapolitan tradition or a resurrection thereof (as documented by Pigmon above) and the shitty-to-mediocre industrial or quasi-industrial slice joints, there are places that turn out pizzas that in general terms resemble one another and are more similar to what Pigmon documents than to say, the industrial or Chicago or general American sort of thing. One finds them in pizza parlours and small restaurants in places like Trenton and Hackensack and Brooklyn and the Bronx and the Upper West Side of Manhattan and out on the Island. These are pizzas that are not made with imported flour and mozzarella di bufala, but they are made with real bread dough put together in-house, with canned tomatoes rather than canned tomato sauce, etc. etc. Not 'artisanal' stuff, at least not in the more chi-chi sense, but the work of craftsmen. Analogous to what the best of the Chicago style makers turn out, but actually 'pizza', i.e., bread with a little stuff on it. Good pizza.

Maybe Patsy's, discussed above, is more in that category than in the top-notch artisanal style, maybe not -- I ain't been.

Hungryrabbi should chime in here; he knows what I mean and can probably give lots of specific examples. Most of the places I used to go to are likely long gone.

But note too that a number of the places that serve pizza that is very Neapolitan in style are not yuppy concept operations. They've been doing this stuff since the (great-)grandparents come over from Southern Italy last century.

Antonius

Mike G wrote:All right, here's my question. If the best New York pizzas are Neapolitan pizzas, is there such a thing as a good New York pizza?

I repectfully disagree. NYC pizzas are not the same as true Neapolitan pizzas (vera pizza napoletana - VPN). Although every pizzeria uses different ingredients and procedures, and some try to straddle both worlds, in general:

- NYC doughs usually contain some olive oil. VPN pizzas usually never have any oil in the dough itself, but olive oils, grapeseed oils, etc. are drizzled on as a topping before and/or after baking.

- NYC doughs are often made of bread flour and/or high gluten flour. VPN pizzas use 00 flour.

- VPN dough usually contains a much high water content, kneaded at a very low speed for a long time.

These factors make NYC dough more elastic, allowing them to be stretched or tossed to make large pies with a tapered center. The VPN dough is much softer and tender and requires more gentle handling to press/stretch it into a thin crust which is then baked at very high temps. VPN pizzas are typically topped with very few ingredients so that the dough's taste and texture are front-stage. VPN dough, prepared and baked correctly has a fluffy consistency while NYC is more bread-like.

The toppings can easily obscure the distinction, but the taste and texture of the crust is very different. Both are a true pleasure when done well.

Bill/SFNM

Antonius wrote:

[quote]top-level old-school (metro-)New York Neapolitan pizza and at least some of the lesser old-style neighbourhood parlours [/quote]

I believe that anwers the question.

Mike G wrote:All right, here's my question. If the best New York pizzas are Neapolitan pizzas, is there such a thing as a good New York pizza?

Mike, you took the words right out of my mouth. When I first heard about PIGMON and trixie-pea's trip, a clear distinction was made between what they ate and what is commonly considered NY-style pizza. These Neapolitan pizzas are most definitely not the eternally floppy, ketchup-on-cardboard that was first introduced to me as "NY-style". The celebration of bread in these pizza's is clearly evident, in ways that it is not in what most people call "NY-style".

Antonius seems to make the same distinction:

Antonius wrote:...what the pizzaioli in the above places and others of their ilk (e.g. Lombardi's) make is clearly Neapolitan pizza or the New York take on Neapolitan pizza and thus it is not to be equated with the products of industrial slice joints, stuff that is also often referred to or thought of as "New York Style."

I was pleased to hear about this trip both before and, of course, after. The exploration of traditional, artisanal, Neapolitan pizza in NY is a worthy and beautiful excursion. Lesser people would have gone on a tour of all the "Rays" and told us which one had the best heat lamp.

Bravo, PIGMON & trixie-pea! I need to get to NY, pronto.

Best,
Michael

eatchicago wrote:Bravo, PIGMON & trixie-pea! I need to get to NY, pronto.

Michael,

I echo your sentiments, both bravo to Pigmon (pronounced PigMin) and Trixie-Pea and I need to get to NY. It's been a while for me and the list of places I'd like to go is starting to become unmanageable.

Now where did I put my pizza stone.

Enjoy,
Gary

eatchicago wrote:Mike, you took the words right out of my mouth. When I first heard about PIGMON and trixie-pea's trip, a clear distinction was made between what they ate and what is commonly considered NY-style pizza. These Neapolitan pizzas are most definitely not the eternally floppy, ketchup-on-cardboard that was first introduced to me as "NY-style". The celebration of bread in these pizza's is clearly evident, in ways that it is not in what most people call "NY-style".

Antonius seems to make the same distinction:

Antonius wrote:...what the pizzaioli in the above places and others of their ilk (e.g. Lombardi's) make is clearly Neapolitan pizza or the New York take on Neapolitan pizza and thus it is not to be equated with the products of industrial slice joints, stuff that is also often referred to or thought of as "New York Style."

I was pleased to hear about this trip both before and, of course, after. The exploration of traditional, artisanal, Neapolitan pizza in NY is a worthy and beautiful excursion. Lesser people would have gone on a tour of all the "Rays" and told us which one had the best heat lamp.

Bravo, PIGMON & trixie-pea! I need to get to NY, pronto.

Best,
Michael

Have I not been saying this for a while? That there is a huge difference between New York style pizza and certain artisianal pizza available in NYC. I really think the places PIGMON and trixie visited were as different from "new york style pizza" as anything in Chicago is. In fact, the only connection is that these things are in the same city.

It would have, however, been interesting to compare a few Ray's or that ilk just to make the evidence more clear. (And I would offer, that while I am no special fan of NYC slice pizza, they are generally not heat-lamped, their fresh re-heating being their one virtue.) Another place that would have been interesting to put in the sample, DiFara's in Queens, which from some accounts might be the missing link speculated by Antonius.

Anyways, like others, I too loved the post and would have loved to have been along side.

Rob

Vital Information wrote:(And I would offer, that while I am no special fan of NYC slice pizza, they are generally not heat-lamped, their fresh re-heating being their one virtue.)

Perhaps I was a bit overzealous in my desire to be slightly inflammatory. The Rays and more popular places in Manhattan are not generally heat-lamped, (my apologies to fans) but I have seen (and avoided) plenty of heat-lamped pizza in NY.

What surprised me, both from reading and tasting, is that nearly all of today's traditional New York Pizza* can be traced back to Gennaro Lombardi. And that the great NYC pizzeria's that still exist today are still owned by the same 3 or 4 families that all had ties to the original Lombardi's. This is a small community of craftsmen. Eric Asimov wrote a great piece in Ed Levine's book that vividly illustrates just how small the traditional NYC pizza world really is.

We are going back for more in September--and are looking forward to venturing out into Brooklyn, New Jersey, and New Haven.


*Smaller whole pies made of yeast risen bread dough, cooked at extremely high temperatures and topped with fresh mozzerella and tomato sauce.

Vital Information wrote: Another place that would have been interesting to put in the sample, DiFara's in Queens, which from some accounts might be the missing link speculated by Antonius.

Rob:

This isn't speculation; I grew up in Bergen County and Manhattan and know whereof I speak. Between the slice joints, which have grown ever more industrial and ever more crappy over the past three decades, and the very traditional places such as Lombardi's and now Totonno's etc., there were and, albeit in surely lesser numbers, still are small restaurants and pizza parlours that turn out good New York style pizza, which is not to be equated with most of the stuff to be found by the slice in Manhattan these days.

One such place which I frequented in the day and which is still, I believe, open (though I have no idea if they still do things the way they did 25 or 30 years ago when I was in college and a regular), was/is V&T's on A'dam Ave, just north of 110th. Not artisanal, not Neapolitan, just old school New York style pizza made with bread dough (with a touch of olive oil). And this kind of pizza is vastly superior with regard to care of preparation and quality of ingredients than the products of most of the slice joints that are now thought of as being archetypically 'New York style' -- good marketing, more often than not mediocre or bad pizza.

I've written before about some of the pizza parlours in Jersey of this local-traditional (not directly emulating Neapolitan) sort which I knew when I was growing up. Alas, the specific ones I knew have all gone out of business long ago. Let's face it, the genre is under assault from two directions: the trend of Americanised, extra-cheesy, extra-meaty, industrial cheap 'pizza' and the trend of the designer, wood-burning oven chi-chi pizza. But my brother, who still lives in the area, tells me now and again of one of these quality places when he comes across the real deal. Hungryrabbi has likewise told me of a number of such places, from Trenton to the Island. They still exist. It isn't speculation.

Antonius

I've been to DiFara's (Midwood, Brookyn--not Queens) about twenty times over the past few years. Usually when I go to New York I check into my hotel and then immediate hop on the Q train for Midwood. In fact, I will be doing just that on Sunday. This place brings tears to my eyes--it's that good.

Pigmon managed to track down a lot of the good places in Manhattan. I will suggest one more--Bleecker Street Pizza. It's relatively new but I'd put it up there with some of the best for the crust alone. A little crispser than most but oh so light and delicate. It might be the best crust in New York.

One more thing about pizza in New York:BROOKLYN. There are no Ray's or places like that there (if there are I haven't found them). The most average to bad slice in Brooklyn is still pretty damn good. Plus, the original Totonno's is there. I can't compare it to the Manhattan location but it's pretty amazing (to be fair, the Manhattan location looks and sounds similar to Coney Island's). Also, if you notice Pigmon's choices, they are generally pretty far from trendy/tourist areas. You CAN find good pizza/food in trendy/tourist areas but you have wade threw a ton of crap to do so. Get away from that, though (ie, Brooklyn) and your odds rise significantly that you'll get a good slice.

Bruce wrote:I also look forward to Bill's pizza experiments. I'm sure his pizza failures will rank right up at the top of many "great pizza" lists.

Bruce,

Thanks. Like our beloved art of BBQ, with the right equipment, ingredients, and procedures, it isn't hard to produce pies better than the most popular commercial joints. But it is still very much an unforgiving art. Even Chris Bianco claims that on a given night, only 3% of his pizzas come out perfect. But the other 97% ain't too shabby either. I haven't yet approached anything close to perfect, but I'm making slow, steady progress.

Bill/SFNM

CMC wrote:...One more thing about pizza in New York:BROOKLYN. There are no Ray's or places like that there (if there are I haven't found them). The most average to bad slice in Brooklyn is still pretty damn good... Also, if you notice Pigmon's choices, they are generally pretty far from trendy/tourist areas. You CAN find good pizza/food in trendy/tourist areas but you have wade threw a ton of crap to do so. Get away from that, though (ie, Brooklyn) and your odds rise significantly that you'll get a good slice.

CMC:

Yeah, alas and alack 'tis true, sadly true... There's still great pizza in Manhattan but, as you say, the trendier or more touristy an area, the greater the likelihood there will be mediocre and bad pizza around, probably in profusion. That's why I said above:

"One finds them [good old New York style pies] in pizza parlours and small restaurants in places like Trenton and Hackensack and Brooklyn and the Bronx and the Upper West Side of Manhattan and out on the Island."

The list was't intended to be complete but to indicate the tendency toward peripheral distribution. I bet there are some good pizza parlours on Staten Island too, but that remains terra incognita for me.*

Antonius

* Note too that I don't mean the very traditional sort of pizza discussed by Pigmon and Trixie-pea above but solid representatives of "New York style." But there are also some places that produce very traditional Neapolitan style pies in peripheral areas too. More on this anon.

Follow up to VI and Antonius,

Again, Antonius is correct that there still exist some (getting rarer and rarer) pizza places in NY and environs that pay attention to bread, tomatoes, cheese, heat, etc. and produce a product that I personally would gladly eat any day of the week (and did when I visited home and my parents still lived in NY. Sleep late, get up, walk to the pizzeria in time for one of the first fresh pies around 10:30 or 11:00 and have a slice for breakfast).

In my pizza-eating youth, the general way to take your pizza was regular, as in "I'll have a slice of regular" meaning tomato and cheese, no other toppings. That was the way all the local Italians had theirs, that's who I learned from. I would say it was a 3 or 4:1 ratio of regular to anything else (usually meat or sausage). And it was mostly non-Italians, and especially more affluent people from the next village over who ate what a neighbor of mine called "decorated" pies.

And yes, it's about the bread. Not to gratuitously slam Chicago-style pizza, which I have learned has its moments, but I can't imagine eating it as a bread product devoid of its toppings. With a good NY pie, I can.

That said, after some email to my brother-in-law, relayed to a lifelong hometown friend of his, I just found to my dismay that the pizzeria of my youth now makes a white pie.

But then, it passed from father to son, and I have it on good authority that the son took to drugs and abandoned his wife and kids. Anybody who will do that will probably be looking to sell anything people ask for, way beyond the occasional decorated pie.

Great stuff. Finally, something we can all agree to talk about.

We have "superbread," and lots of it. Possibly more so than any other large city because of the unusual confluence of immigrants to Chicago who make it. But it's on Devon and Kedzie and in Pilsen and Little Village and it's not Italian.

NYC has wonderful, artisan pizza places but no fresh masa to speak of. Despite a rapidly growing Mexican population, the NYers on the Other Board speak of dry masa harina from a bag when they speak of "hecho a mano." Does that make it an inferior food town? Are the rubes to be faulted? I mean, what's so hard about it? They must not understand.

I don't blame Chicago. I chalk it up to immigration patterns, the high cost and low margin on making "superbread" that demands a certain density of working class people who will support such an anachronistic industry. Skill, knowledge, infrastructure and buyers are all required.

Chicago doesn't have a thousand places to buy brilliant, delicate hand-made pasta dumplings (the Polish kind) because of the people who read this board or even Metromix. (Instead, we have a Toplobampo, Chilpancingo, Salpicon, etc. precisely because we first had the Mexican alimentary infrastructure, at least that's what the father of the genre has been quoted as saying. The clear parallel here is Una Pizza Napoletana.)

Chicago did not have a Totonno or a Patsy, and thus no tradition in that area of pizza making. We did have a D'Amato and others with a different "bread with a little stuff on it" tradition. Lucky us.

But the stuff is great when it's done right, so Chicago can and should be able to sustain some such places. And it does, sort of, right? Inconsistency looms large, but at various times I have been pleased with Follia, DOC, even Piece and Caponies. It's that inconsistency, the need for real skill, the incredibly fickle nature of quick, flat breads that make the NYC pizza places special. I'm optimistic. If a recent Mexican or Central American immigrant can turn out great breads from a tandoor, pizza should be doable.

PS, I still believe that the average pizza in NY, like the average pizza in Chicago, is pretty bad (albeit scads better than most pizza in the rest of the US). Because the "short" dough of Chicago thin is harder to screw up, and loses less as it gets stale (day old Chicago pie is eminently munchable though hardly transcendent while day old NYC pie is inedible), it is better at the lowest common denominator. I know that's not what anyone here aspires to eat, but it happens.

And our sausage is good, so we got that going for us.

I forgot to mention that I enjoyed Patsy's in Harlem. Not transcendent by any means but I thought there was something to the freshness/brightness (if brightness can be used to describe tomato sauce) to their sauce that stood out from most other places. Plus, $1.50 a slice and it's the only place I ever Frank stop in mid-song and say "Ever had Patsy's Pizza in Harlem? Best pizza in the world."

Jeff,

I hadn't thought about the day old thing, but now that I do you're right. We generally never had any pizza left over on the rare occasions when we ordered a whole pie, but I find with Chicago pizza when I order it, I usually enjoy the leftovers more than the original.

As to the sausage, well, I think Chicago has great Italian sausage, but I just don't like sausage on pizza. BTW, when I order pizza in Chicago, my standard instructions are to use 1/2 the cheese as usual and cook it extra-crispy.

The extra-crispy is accepted without a murmur. The request for less cheese is really hard to get across. A couple times I've had people get a little indignant and tell me there's no discount for that.

annieb wrote:In my pizza-eating youth, the general way to take your pizza was regular, as in "I'll have a slice of regular" meaning tomato and cheese, no other toppings. That was the way all the local Italians had theirs, that's who I learned from. I would say it was a 3 or 4:1 ratio of regular to anything else (usually meat or sausage). And it was mostly non-Italians, and especially more affluent people from the next village over who ate what a neighbor of mine called "decorated" pies.

Ann,

You're reminding me of things from long ago... In my family, the two most common versions of pizza ordered were 1) 'regular', as you describe above; 2) anchovy, which typically had no mozzarella on it. Those two accounted for 80%. Other variants were 'plain' (just tomato, oil, garlic, oregano -- one of the pies ordered by Pigmon and Trixie-Pea was like that) and cheese with mushrooms. Meat of any sort as a topping was much less commonly ordered, if memory serves me well... And there were pies with greens (scarole) around Easter...

The invention -- well, rediscovery -- of the fresh herb and the increased use of higher grade mozzarella have definitely been nice improvements over the years (decades). When ordering pizza in Chicago, we often have sausage added; it's usually good sausage and distracts me from the pastry crust ( ). Just kidding (or not).

And yes, it's about the bread. Not to gratuitously slam Chicago-style pizza, which I have learned has its moments, but I can't imagine eating it as a bread product devoid of its toppings. With a good NY pie, I can.

Good point. And I remember eating cheeseless pizza (plus or minus anchovy) with a salad with the pizza serving just as bread.

But then, it passed from father to son, and I have it on good authority that the son took to drugs and abandoned his wife and kids. Anybody who will do that will probably be looking to sell anything people ask for, way beyond the occasional decorated pie.

I can't help but though I'll too. Many a good old family business has gone bad or gone under thanks to the nostrils of the younger generation...

A

We haven't talked enough about that magic herb, oregano. When I was growing up in NYC, I can't recall eating a pizza that didn't have dried oregano (and there were containers of oregano - and hot pepper flakes). How I miss those days. To me the flavor of oregano is as much a part of the core flavor of a New York-style pizza as the bread, cheese, and tomatoes. But here in Chicago, oregano is as exotic as the anchovie.

GAF wrote: But here in Chicago, oregano is as exotic as the anchovie.

Huh?! Virtually every pizzeria in chicago I've been to has shakers of dried oregano on the table, along with fake parmesan and hot pepper flakes. It's extremely rare, to me, to not see that combination.

Well, after not one but two requests to chime in, I guess I have no choice but to make my opinions heard on this topic

First of all, greetings from Las Vegas, everyone. The last three weeks have been quite the trip - I'm just about fully settled in and have already discovered some of the sublime joys this town has to offer on the dining front. No, no 5-star outings to Bradley Ogden or Lutece or Emeril's Muffaletta Creole Wicked Good Bam! House or whatever, just the usual sniffin' around for what the locals eat... which have included excellent Honduran (pupusas, pasteles, arroz con pollo, licuados, etc..) very, very good Chinese at the hyper-modern and Blade-Runnerish Chinatown Plaza on Spring Mountain (actually a connected series of strip malls and plazas which runs for a good mile and has everything from old-school BBQ house with hanging pigs and ducks to the more Joy-Yeeish pastel/neon colored bubble tea/bakery/noodle soup Euro-Chinese hybrid "cafe") and, (maybe not so) surprisingly, GREAT bagels/bialys and, yep, pizza. More to come as my time and budget allow - I'm waiting for my first visitor to go to Lotus of Siam, as that seems like a place where experimentation and trying multiple dishes is the way to go.

Now, as far as the NYC pizza "thing" (The word "thing" here to be inflected exactly as Diane Keaton pronounces the word in Godfather II when she refers to the "Sicilian thing" in the abortion argument with Michael).... JeffB and I respectfully agree to disagree on the entire "Random Pizza Joint" theory. Maybe I have better pizza radar or just better luck (I am one of the chosen people, after all....), but I can attest to the following: In April of this year, during a 10 day road trip/excursion/escape to NYC with my bandleader Vini, we sojourned to East Northport, Long Island, to sample the famous crumb buns at Hummel Hummel Bakery (Yes, we are fucking nuts. Yes, they are worth the drive. Yes, East Northport is about as podunk as the greater NYC area, or New Netherland (thanks, Professor B!) gets.) Alas, the bakery was closed (Monday...grrr...) and we "settled" for sating our hunger at the Random Pizza Joint located in the same dumpy strip mall off of Jericho Turnpike that houses Hummel Hummel. For $1.45, I received a slice of Sicilian pizza that, to my tastes, was spot-on perfectly delicious: charred, crispy bottom crust, flaky, olive-oily middle and silky top crusts, fresh, bright, homemade sauce (studded with chunks of tomato, garlic, and herbs) and just enough creamy mozzarella to make itself known (before it went into the cheese protection program, I assume...sometimes my turn of phrase even startles me...). Perfect. Simple. Inexpensive. Unspoiled, un-fancified, probably the same recipe that the family who runs this particular pizza place has been using since the 50's. Now, I will grant that this type of Total Pizza Experience (TPE) is hard to achieve in Manhattan. The focus there, as is rightly pointed out by those who would denounce NYC pizza, seems to have shifted to sheer volume, turnover, and a terrifying focus on chi-chi toppings (artichoke, sun dried tomato, etc...) as opposed to a really good bread with simple, sober (thanks again, Professor B!) toppings. This pizza in Manhattan is almost invariably made by Latinos. Take that as you want, I'm just sayin.... My experience in finding really good NYC area (meaning to include Long Island and Northern and Central Jersey) pizza has been exactly of the "randomly walk in and find (well, 95% of the time) a very good to great pizza waiting for me" variety. From getting off the subway in Brooklyn and stumbling into Luigi's Pizza on Avenue U, to the little corner shop by my grandmother's old apartment on Ocean Avenue that has no name (always been "PIZZA SHOP", always kept weird hours, and always delivered the goods... I actually had the good fortune, a few years back, to witness Frank the pizza man teaching one of the younger kids the right way to stretch the dough on the peel and apply the toppings and other technique. It is a simple craft, but a craft nonetheless...) to the slightly upscale Italian Deli and Market in Stony Brook that serves a sheet pan pizza that would knock your Aunt Connie's socks off, to any number of other places I've had the good fortune to sample, it just seems to me that NYC area pizza's standards remain very high, ie, closer in spirit, style, and taste to the Vera Pizza Napoletana so prized by pizza-heads everywhere. As for some of the specific places mentioned above - Di Fara's is special, very special, but really different - Dominic has honed and refined HIS pizza over the last 40 years to HIS tastes - the haphazardly applied toppings, the slightly soggy crust (which benefits immensely from the much-derided oven reheat) and the salty shot of grated cheese at the end all make for a pizza which is recognizable as NYC style but also immediately as a Di Fara's pizza. Not to everyone's taste, but I thought it was fantastic. Maybe not worth a 2 hour wait, but pretty goddamn good. Bleecker ST Pizza I found to be OK. Certainly the freshness and emphasis on ingredients and technique is evident, as it is a tasty product. But, somehow Manhattanized and Yuppified... like some of the oomph, zing, kapow, moxie, what have you was taken out of it. Still, quite edible. For me, though, I'll just follow my nose and keep finding these wonderful little neighborhood gems and tributes to classic pizza making... it hasn't let me down so far...

Reb

Reb,

Thank you, thank you for mentioning the Sicilian pizza. I was, frankly, afraid to, given the high level of jingoistic talk about pizza, especially here in Chicago. Just my opinion, but in NY, people will say let's get a slice, and someone will say, I know where, and then everyone will eat their slice and someone might say So-and-so's is better, followed by an Oh, yeah, and you're off to So-and-sos.

I was afraid somebody would try to steer me to D'Amato's sheet pizza and claim it was Sicilian--NOT.

Nothing quite like a slice of Sicilian at 1 am after a good pub crawl followed by a good night's sleep, and a slice of regular for breakfast. Keeps you steady. Always like a good bit of pepperoncino on my Sicilian, not so much on the regular.

IMO, and we're going back some years, it's always been harder to find a good Sicilian than a good regular pie, and it's probably gotten harder, but alas, I would not know.

Annieb,

My preferred style, since I'm a kid, has always been Sicilian over Neapolitan. Not to say that I don't like a good old regular slice, but, given the option, I'll almost always go for Sicilian. Being a firm believer in the Frankenstein "Bread...Good!!" school of thought, a bigger, thicker, breadier slice of pizza wins every time. Funny enough, it's hard to find a place that does both styles well. Joe's Pizza in the West Village (Father Demo Sq, 6th Ave @ Bleecker) does them both well, but, as seems to be a constant problem, neither style is really elevated to fantastic. The pizza place of my youth in Jersey, for example (and an archetypal NYC area slice joint - in the good sense - complete with a small menu of sandwiches and pasta, the two tankards of colored "drink" constantly recycling, and the framed picture of the 1982 Italian national soccer team) made a serviceable round pie but a transcendent Sicilian. Probably why my tastes lean in that direction.

annieb wrote:I was afraid somebody would try to steer me to D'Amato's sheet pizza and claim it was Sicilian--NOT.

No, The D'Amato's pizza is not NYC Sicilian, but similar. As I (and others) have pointed out, this style, the Chicago bakery pizza (Masi, D'Amato's, Scafuri, Sicilia, etc...) was my favorite, by far, on offer in Chicago. Wow. "Was." Past tense sounds weird....

Reb

Erik M. wrote:How, exactly, did you settle on those particular establishments?

Erik -

As I mentioned in the early part of the post, I saw Ed Levine here in Chicago and purchased his latest book "Pizza". In it, he talks about "The keepers of the flame", the pie men who could "make my heart pound..." and "could cause grown men and women to moan with pleasure in public without embarrassment".
Three of the four places we visited (Totonno's, UPN, and Nick's) were amongst Ed's "keepers". As huge fans of Mr. Levine, his list of Hall of Famers seemed like an obvious launching point into our quest to find some of the great examples of east coast pizza (in its varied forms).
We felt it mandatory to visit Patsy's in Harlem mostly on its historic significance to NY pizza.

HI,

I have about 6 copies of Ed's Pizza book signed by the author from his Chicago Foodways Rountable appearance, just in case there may be interest.

I've had neighbors recently move to the east coast who were delighted with the information in the book. If I were traveling more, its a book which would take residence in the car for reference while traveling, especially on the east coast.

Regards,