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    Post #1 - May 2nd, 2010, 10:00 am
    Post #1 - May 2nd, 2010, 10:00 am Post #1 - May 2nd, 2010, 10:00 am
    School's out, and I have little to do but hang out and wait to have a baby. So naturally I decided now would be a good time to tackle something I just never had time for before - making bread.

    For my maiden voyage, I picked a simple-sounding honey wheat recipe. It had all the basic steps: dissolve yeast in warm water, add flours, salt, honey, etc, then knead for fifteen minutes, let rise, punch down, loaf it, rise again, bake. The end result was OK, but the texture was extremely crumbly, which I was not expecting. Also, the first rise just didn't happen. I left it in the oven with the light on to facilitate rising, to no avail.

    What did I do wrong? The yeast wasn't brand-spanking-new, but not expired either. Could the temp of the water it dissolves in affect the result? Should I have kneaded it more? Less? Left it to rise longer than the prescribed time? Any thoughts are welcome, I am looking forward to turning out a loaf my husband will actually eat :)
    As a mattra-fact, Pie Face, you are beginning to look almost human. - Barbara Bennett
  • Post #2 - May 2nd, 2010, 10:57 am
    Post #2 - May 2nd, 2010, 10:57 am Post #2 - May 2nd, 2010, 10:57 am
    Suzy Creamcheese wrote:What did I do wrong? The yeast wasn't brand-spanking-new, but not expired either. Could the temp of the water it dissolves in affect the result? Should I have kneaded it more? Less? Left it to rise longer than the prescribed time? Any thoughts are welcome, I am looking forward to turning out a loaf my husband will actually eat :)


    Assuming the yeast was still viable, you should have let it rise until it expands the required amount. Water temp and room temp could both have been a factor. Patience, something you'll need in industrial-strength quantities starting in a few months and continuing for, say, another 25 years, is an essential ingredient in baking bread. Don't force the dough by cranking up the temp just because the recipe says it will expand after a specified time. The dough is on its own schedule. Time helps it develop flavor. If it never rises, you know the yeast is dead. If it rises before you have a chance to use it, just pop it in the fridge.

    Insufficient gluten development will result in a crumbly texture. It is easy to under-knead, much, much harder to over-knead. The window-pane test is a good starting point.
  • Post #3 - May 2nd, 2010, 2:05 pm
    Post #3 - May 2nd, 2010, 2:05 pm Post #3 - May 2nd, 2010, 2:05 pm
    That's all good info, thanks. Two things: how can I increase the gluten content? And what is the window-pane test?
    As a mattra-fact, Pie Face, you are beginning to look almost human. - Barbara Bennett
  • Post #4 - May 2nd, 2010, 2:17 pm
    Post #4 - May 2nd, 2010, 2:17 pm Post #4 - May 2nd, 2010, 2:17 pm
    Suzy Creamcheese wrote:That's all good info, thanks. Two things: how can I increase the gluten content? And what is the window-pane test?


    In this case, you would develop the gluten by additional kneading. (In very wet doughs, gluten can develop over time without much kneading). When you have kneaded enough that you can take a small ball of dough and stretch it with your hands into a sheet so thin that you can see light through it, you have reached the "window-pane" stage.
  • Post #5 - May 2nd, 2010, 3:30 pm
    Post #5 - May 2nd, 2010, 3:30 pm Post #5 - May 2nd, 2010, 3:30 pm
    Suzy, if your kitchen was cool the day that you baked, it could be that the dough needed more time for gluten to develop. During this time of the year when the heat is no longer on, I try to be particularly mindful of how the temperature of the room, the ingredients and equipment might be affecting the yeast and the dough. For example, if your mixing bowl is cold to the touch, it can dramatically cool down the water that you are using to activate your yeast. So I'll start with 125 degree water, pour it into the mixing bowl, make sure the temperature is still 105 - 115 degrees before adding the yeast. Then I wait a few minutes to make sure the yeast is bubbling before I proceed. Similarly, if your other ingredients are too cold, that can cool down your dough and slow things down.

    I've read in Bakewise by Shirley Corriher that salt (and sugar) can inhibit gluten development. So if a recipe calls for either, I try to mix in about half of the flour before I add the salt (or sugar).

    Check the bread making thread for many more tips:
    viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18522
  • Post #6 - May 2nd, 2010, 3:38 pm
    Post #6 - May 2nd, 2010, 3:38 pm Post #6 - May 2nd, 2010, 3:38 pm
    Another gluten issue: what kind of flours are you using? Different flours have all kinds of different gluten levels - you might start with a white or mostly white bread to get the idea before moving on to a whole grain bread.
  • Post #7 - May 3rd, 2010, 8:53 am
    Post #7 - May 3rd, 2010, 8:53 am Post #7 - May 3rd, 2010, 8:53 am
    Mhays wrote:Another gluten issue: what kind of flours are you using? Different flours have all kinds of different gluten levels - you might start with a white or mostly white bread to get the idea before moving on to a whole grain bread.
    I agree with Michelle--white bread is easier for a beginner than wheat bread. Most baking books start with a basic white bread recipe to get the hang of bread making and then go on from there. King Arthur usually has a basic recipe posted on the flour bag.
    "things like being careful with your coriander/ that's what makes the gravy grander" - Sondheim
  • Post #8 - May 3rd, 2010, 12:00 pm
    Post #8 - May 3rd, 2010, 12:00 pm Post #8 - May 3rd, 2010, 12:00 pm
    Adding to Mhays' and grits' advice, whole wheat flour generally has the lowest gluten content. If you want to make whole wheat bread, adding some gluten will really help the texture. You should be able to find gluten with the flour at Whole Foods or any other grocery that has a good selection of flours.
  • Post #9 - May 3rd, 2010, 12:26 pm
    Post #9 - May 3rd, 2010, 12:26 pm Post #9 - May 3rd, 2010, 12:26 pm
    I would check out a copy of The Breadbaker's Aprentice or anything else by Peter Reinhart from your local library.
    i used to milk cows
  • Post #10 - May 3rd, 2010, 12:40 pm
    Post #10 - May 3rd, 2010, 12:40 pm Post #10 - May 3rd, 2010, 12:40 pm
    The recipe I used called for a mix of AP and wheat flour - mostly AP. I will try a white recipe next time.

    Kneading question: I mixed and kneaded this loaf by hand, but would I perhaps have better results if I let the KitchenAid at it? I likely did not knead it long or vigorously enough, since I have a shoulder injury that makes that sort of protracted activity acutely uncomfortable.
    As a mattra-fact, Pie Face, you are beginning to look almost human. - Barbara Bennett
  • Post #11 - May 3rd, 2010, 1:02 pm
    Post #11 - May 3rd, 2010, 1:02 pm Post #11 - May 3rd, 2010, 1:02 pm
    Suzy - I would do the following:

    1. Go buy a new package of instant (aka rapid rise) yeast. Yeast is cheap and a new package will let you rule out dead yeast as a cause of your problems. Instant yeast does not need to be dissolved in water and so it is much easier to work with.

    When you buy instant yeast, it is easiest to work with a recipe that calls for this, rather than standard active dry yeast. Even better, find a recipe that calls for some type of pre-ferment, such as the Alton Brown one I liked to below.

    If you want to use instant yeast in a recipe that calls for standard active dry yeast, skip the step of combining the yeast and water. Add the water that would have been combined with the yeast to the rest of the water that is going in the bread. Add the dry yeast to the flour directly.

    2. Try using the Kitchenaid mixer for kneading. Note that the Artisan mixer and other 5-qt mixers tend to be a little small and underpowered for some bread recipes. If you have a 5qt mixer, make a one-loaf recipe, not a two-loaf recipe.

    3. Use the window pane test to see if the dough is sufficiently kneaded. There are probably a lot of examples of this on the web and videos on youtube. Here is one that I just found: http://www.thekitchn.com/thekitchn/tips ... ead-070784

    4. As a few people have pointed out, wheat bread is a little trickier than white bread. Try an all-white or mostly-white recipe first, and then move on to a mixture with more wheat.

    5. As teatpuller said, Peter Reinhart books are very good. You can also use this Alton Brown recipe to get started:
    http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alto ... index.html
  • Post #12 - May 3rd, 2010, 7:05 pm
    Post #12 - May 3rd, 2010, 7:05 pm Post #12 - May 3rd, 2010, 7:05 pm
    I think fresh yeast is definitely in the cards. It's supposed to bubble?! That didn't happen. The yeast I have isn't expired yet, but IIRC it's a bit like baking powder and loses its oomph long before the sell-by date.

    Can I just sub AP flour for the whole wheat in my recipe and get a decent result, or are the proportions different for white? I am specifically looking for the honey flavor in the bread, straight white bread does not appeal to me.
    As a mattra-fact, Pie Face, you are beginning to look almost human. - Barbara Bennett
  • Post #13 - May 3rd, 2010, 7:50 pm
    Post #13 - May 3rd, 2010, 7:50 pm Post #13 - May 3rd, 2010, 7:50 pm
    baking powder expires? Oy.
    "Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad." Miles Kington
  • Post #14 - May 4th, 2010, 6:58 am
    Post #14 - May 4th, 2010, 6:58 am Post #14 - May 4th, 2010, 6:58 am
    1. Go buy a new package of instant (aka rapid rise) yeast


    In my experience, instant yeast is not the same as rapid rise.

    Rapid rise is a variant of the active dry yeast that you find in the small envelopes, usually from Fleischmann or Red Star.

    Instant yeast usually has to be purchased in larger vacuum type bags.

    Rapid rise is used in doughs similar to active dry, ie mixed with warm water. It just rises faster. Instant is mixed directly into the flour.
  • Post #15 - May 4th, 2010, 7:12 am
    Post #15 - May 4th, 2010, 7:12 am Post #15 - May 4th, 2010, 7:12 am
    rickster wrote:
    In my experience, instant yeast is not the same as rapid rise.



    Rapid Rise and Instant are the same thing, just different packaging.
  • Post #16 - May 4th, 2010, 11:23 am
    Post #16 - May 4th, 2010, 11:23 am Post #16 - May 4th, 2010, 11:23 am
    I may have just murdered my KitchenAid. It was churning away, and went from "all is well" to "smoking" in about thirty seconds. Crap.
    As a mattra-fact, Pie Face, you are beginning to look almost human. - Barbara Bennett
  • Post #17 - May 5th, 2010, 11:30 am
    Post #17 - May 5th, 2010, 11:30 am Post #17 - May 5th, 2010, 11:30 am
    Ooh, ooh, ooh. That sounds bad. Sorry to hear that.
    "Your swimming suit matches your eyes, you hold your nose before diving, loving you has made me bananas!"

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