Hi,

I saw a program yesterday where they fermented collard greens similar to kraut. This very local specialty was referred to as rotten collard greens. It had a bad enough odor these fermented greens were brought into a house and the owners ordered it outside.

For years I avoided making sauerkraut because of its reputation for smelling bad especially during the first week of processing. I am curious to take a shot at fermented collard greens to see what it may be like.

Regards,

Interesting, C2! Tell you what, if you take one for the team on this one, your fame as First Lady of Pickling will be universal! I'll be eaberly waiting to hear your news--I love kraut, and I love collards.

Geo

Geo wrote:Interesting, C2! Tell you what, if you take one for the team on this one, your fame as First Lady of Pickling will be universal! I'll be eaberly waiting to hear your news--I love kraut, and I love collards.

Geo

Hi,

You just never know who you tempted. If it really stinks, I will mail them to you. Hopefully to your KS address to avoid issues with customs.

Regards,

Yes, Kansas would probably be safer than Québec on stinky postal deliveries, C2.

Geo

Bi-annual sauerkraut production began yesterday with the purchase of a bag of cabbages for $10.

I weighed all seven cabbages from 4 lb 5 oz to 8 lb 2.5 oz for a total weight of 45 pounds or roughly 22 cents a pound.

Cores and tough outer leaves weighed in a 5 lb. I used one head weighing almost five pounds for stuffed cabbage.

I have 35 pounds of hand sliced cabbage in a five gallon container. I will divide this into a second container. Once the cabbage begins to ferment, it bubbles causing this packed cabbage to fluff up. If you don't divide it, it will go over the container.

There has been a frost already where these cabbages were picked. They had a nice sweet taste to them and lots of moisture.

The NY Times has a nice, short documentary on Sandor Katz:

‘Sandorkraut: A Pickle Maker’

Since the beginning of time, humans have been fermenting our food. Sauerkraut, chocolate, beer, cheese: Because of fermentation these foods not only last longer — they are delicious. But although nearly every region of the world has cultivated its own unique fermentation traditions — and devoted eaters — the practice has all but disappeared from many modern households. This Op-Doc video profiles the man at the forefront of reviving the art of fermentation, a New Yorker turned homesteader named Sandor Katz (or “Sandorkraut,” as he is often known).

After reading Michael Pollan's wonderful book "Cooked", the section on fermented foods stuck with me. Among other things, he makes his own sauerkraut.

Here is a question: Do commercially fermented products retain their happy fermenting bacteria or are the bacteria destroyed through.. I dunno, pasteurization? Other processing?

An elder in our family talks of how, in the old days, his peeps kept a fermenting crock under the kitchen sink and always had "something" in it, from cucumbers in the summer to cabbage through winter. We attribute his longevity in part to this access to the happy bacteria.

But if we buy commercial sauerkraut in a glass jar or plastic bag, it seems the bacteria must be killed or the continuing fermentation would blow up the bag or explode the jar. Is that right?

I had the idea that Korean kim chi might have active bacteria but a trip to H-Mart did not help answer the question. H-Mart is kim chi heaven but none of the packaged kim chi products indicated anything on labels whether they were pasteurized or contained live bacteria. However I did witness a demonstration of kim chi making that was going on in the southwest corner of the store near the prepared food: On a long table, a couple of food workers were taking heads of napa cabbage and dunking them into vats of thick red spicy paste, working the paste onto and into the heads, peeling back one leaf at a time to get some paste into every corner. Presumably these then ferment and are packaged into smaller quantities. I could not get my questions answered by the two workers. I can't imagine the store going through the effort of pasteurizing this kim chi. But if not, where is it in the store.

As far as crocks of fermenting food goes, the pickle barrels that once were common in some delis have gone the way of the delis themselves. Or if not gone (Kauffman's had one before the fire and renovation -- does it still?), maybe the pickles in them are pasteurized and just sort of for show.

So tell me please, are there any commercial foods that have still-fermenting bacteria? (I mean besides dairy, yogurt and kefir.)

And have you read that fermentation section of Cooked? Did it inspire you?

PS Thank you Darrren for the Times link! --Joy

Joy wrote:Or if not gone (Kauffman's had one before the fire and renovation -- does it still?), maybe the pickles in them are pasteurized and just sort of for show

Kaufman's still has the pickle barrels--new and old pickles. I think they're the real thing. The new pickles are one of the big draws for our family.

Salt and vinegar are preservatives used to kill fermentation bacteria. The original recipe posted at the top was used many many years ago when refrigeration simply wasn't available to masses (see former USSR
It does take 42-72 hours to ferment the cabbage and we used slicers and 5 gallon buckets, doing 100 lbs at the time. Very little salt is being used and no vinegar at all. Temp below 60 may add extra day, but that's about it. In the end I use a trick to provide the cabbage with couple hours of "air conditioning" by making 5-6 vertical holes with the long stick. After such air bath move the cabbage into wider container, pack into smaller jars (we used 32 oz plastic), top with the juice, use lids and keep in the fridge for months and months.... of course, our beauty didn't last more than a week

cashflowrulesagain wrote:Salt and vinegar are preservatives used to kill fermentation bacteria. The original recipe posted at the top was used many many years ago when refrigeration simply wasn't available to masses (see former USSR
It does take 42-72 hours to ferment the cabbage and we used slicers and 5 gallon buckets, doing 100 lbs at the time. Very little salt is being used and no vinegar at all. Temp below 60 may add extra day, but that's about it. In the end I use a trick to provide the cabbage with couple hours of "air conditioning" by making 5-6 vertical holes with the long stick. After such air bath move the cabbage into wider container, pack into smaller jars (we used 32 oz plastic), top with the juice, use lids and keep in the fridge for months and months.... of course, our beauty didn't last more than a week

Hi,

You are likely making the fresh kraut available in farmer's markets in the USSR, which is intended for salads instead of the long term. Your experience varies solely due to the nature of the end product.

Where do you sell your cabbage?

Regards,

LOL, it wasn't my intention to make a cabbage revolution, but you are imagining about those farmer markets. They never sold "fresh kraut for salads and not for long term" there, but they sold more or less what I described, and people usually stored it in refrigerators or outdoors during the winter season... for months.

The trick is to stop cabbage from getting more sour, and the bacteria almost falls asleep inside the fridge. Do you want to try my "kvashennaya kapusta"? I think, my wife dropped Georgian lavash bread in your house 6-7 years ago, no?

Joy wrote:Do commercially fermented products retain their happy fermenting bacteria or are the bacteria destroyed through.. I dunno, pasteurization? Other processing? . . .

But if we buy commercial sauerkraut in a glass jar or plastic bag, it seems the bacteria must be killed or the continuing fermentation would blow up the bag or explode the jar. Is that right?

I think that's usually the case, but there are exceptions. In general, commercial sauerkraut is heated during the packing process, has antibacterial preservatives added, or both. A quick glance at the ingredients of Vienna, Boar's Head and Frank's bagged kraut shows they all contain the antibacterial chemicals sodium benzoate and sodium bisulfite (the bisulfite is an antioxidant that also retards browning).



Frank's in a jar (sold at room temperature) has those two preservatives (actually, here it’s sodium metabisulfite) . . .



. . . but Frank's in a can contains only cabbage, water and salt. I'm sure the bacteria are heat-killed during canning.



Claussen jarred kraut (sold refrigerated) has both sodium benzoate and potassium metabisulfite.



The situation in the "boutique" krauts is, I think, more variable. Bubbie's of San Francisco (a product of Canada, the fine print informs) contains only cabbage, water and salt, and the jars are kept cold. The label proudly states the kraut is "abundant with live cultures."



I have a feeling that when live bacteria remain in sauerkraut or pickles, it's often mentioned.

Joy wrote:I had the idea that Korean kim chi might have active bacteria... I can't imagine the store going through the effort of pasteurizing this kim chi.

I think you're right about that, at least for most kimchee. The stuff I usually buy clearly continues to ferment during storage. Here's the label of one from Chicago Food Corp.



Even though it doesn't say anything about live cultures, I suspect there are plenty of lactic acid bacteria in that kimchee. I think Korean customers expect it to be that way.

Joy wrote:As far as crocks of fermenting food goes, the pickle barrels that once were common in some delis have gone the way of the delis themselves. Or if not gone (Kauffman's had one before the fire and renovation -- does it still?), maybe the pickles in them are pasteurized and just sort of for show.

For the big tubs of sauerkraut often seen in delis, you just have to snoop around and ask questions. I have no idea about Kaufman's pickles, but some of the sauerkraut in Polish delicatessens is supplied by Stanmark. At least at one deli, the kapusta contains benzoate and bisulfite.



Another Chicago sauerkraut maker is A-Z Sales. Though they no longer have a retail store, their products can be found in some Eastern European markets. I think, but am not certain, their kraut is not heat pasteurized (the label clearly says no preservatives). Regardless whether it contains live lactobacilli, I'm quite fond of this cranberry kraut.

cashflowrulesagain wrote:Salt and vinegar are preservatives used to kill fermentation bacteria.

Actually, the lactic acid bacteria that ferment sauerkraut are fairly salt-tolerant and aren't affected by moderate salt levels (up to 4% or more, depending on species). The salt is added (usually 2-3%) at the beginning of fermentation to suppress the growth of undesirable bacteria. As fermentation proceeds, lactic acid is produced, the pH drops, and bacterial metabolism slows. When the pH falls below 4, fermentation almost stops. One could artificially lower the pH by adding vinegar, but most picklers prefer to let the bacteria produce their own acid.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH Rene G for this wonderful post. You pulled together so much of information -- just what I was looking for. Great answers. You have straightened out my confusion (to the extent that is possible-- ).

In the mean time, I am on the lookout for Bubbie's of San Francisco kraut and AZ Sales kraut. I will try Produce World on Dempster and Harlem which has a huge selection of jarred pickled products. Or can you suggest where these can be purchased?

Although I do not have anywhere to make sauerkraut myself, a friend has a likely basement and she is inclined towards Eastern European old-fashioned food like I am sometimes. I am going to try to talk her into making sauerkraut this fall (I tell myself optimistically). After re-reading all of Cathy's posts on the subject here, the next step will be getting Michael Pollan's book 'Cooked' back from the library and re-reading the long chapter on fermentation. I think I will have to buy this wonderful book in direct violation of the No More Cookbooks! rule. Hey, it is not technically a cookbook, I say to myself.

Rene G, could you go one step more and tell us if you know of any commercially available pickles that have live cultures? I've been searching with no luck so far. The nearest Garden Fresh Market (Mundelein) has pickles in barrels, but they're in a vinegar brine; I suspect the barrels are just for show. Not a big fan of saurkraut, so I've been getting my lactic acid fermentation products from kimchee.

The Brinery, based in Ann Arbor, makes wonderful fermented products that are sold all over the area--they are not cheap but thy are delicious and worth seeking out. Here's the link to a store list. They also can be ordered online.

My question: if you save the brine once you've eaten the original contents and put your own stuff in the jar, are their any positive residual effects that would transfer to the new contents, other than tasting good? I'm assuming since it was refrigerated and continues to be, the answer is no.

boudreaulicious wrote:The Brinery, based in Ann Arbor, makes wonderful fermented products that are sold all over the area--they are not cheap but thy are delicious and worth seeking out. Here's the link to a store list. They also can be ordered online.

My question: if you save the brine once you've eaten the original contents and put your own stuff in the jar, are their any positive residual effects that would transfer to the new contents, other than tasting good? I'm assuming since it was refrigerated and continues to be, the answer is no.

Thanks very much for the info on The Brinery.

I am curious to see if anyone has an answer for your question. One website I saw on DIY pickling gave me the impression that the lactic acid-producing bacteria get used up --- sort of pickle themselves to death --- which leads me to speculate that there wouldn't be any benefit to adding fresh cucumbers to the leftover brine. But I would like to see what someone who actually knows what they're talking about says about that.

There is a company in Fox Point, Wi that makes kraut, kimchi, etc..with fermentation and bacteria. I ran into them for the first time at the Waukesha Farmers Mkt. Had a taste of ginger carrots, kraut, and "Zimchi." I bought a bottle of "Zimchi." They are called ZYMBIOTICS (www.zymbioticsllc.com). Good stuff.

Joy wrote:In the mean time, I am on the lookout for Bubbie's of San Francisco kraut and AZ Sales kraut. I will try Produce World on Dempster and Harlem which has a huge selection of jarred pickled products. Or can you suggest where these can be purchased?

I’ve seen Bubbie’s at Treasure Island. Produce World sounds like an excellent idea for A-Z. This Yelp photo shows A-Z tomatoes, pickles and cranberry kraut (upper right) in the refrigerated case at the Skokie store.

Katie wrote:Rene G, could you go one step more and tell us if you know of any commercially available pickles that have live cultures? I've been searching with no luck so far. The nearest Garden Fresh Market (Mundelein) has pickles in barrels, but they're in a vinegar brine; I suspect the barrels are just for show. Not a big fan of saurkraut, so I've been getting my lactic acid fermentation products from kimchee.

For reasonably priced pickles, my first thought would be A-Z Sales. I’m not absolutely certain they contain viable bacteria, but I think they do.

boudreaulicious wrote:The Brinery, based in Ann Arbor, makes wonderful fermented products that are sold all over the area--they are not cheap but thy are delicious and worth seeking out. Here's the link to a store list. They also can be ordered online.

Thanks for the reminder. A few other lines of "boutique" pickles and kraut can be found at upscale markets, but I can’t remember the company names. All that I’ve seen are surprisingly expensive.

Katie wrote:

boudreaulicious wrote:My question: if you save the brine once you've eaten the original contents and put your own stuff in the jar, are their any positive residual effects that would transfer to the new contents, other than tasting good? I'm assuming since it was refrigerated and continues to be, the answer is no.

I am curious to see if anyone has an answer for your question. One website I saw on DIY pickling gave me the impression that the lactic acid-producing bacteria get used up --- sort of pickle themselves to death --- which leads me to speculate that there wouldn't be any benefit to adding fresh cucumbers to the leftover brine. But I would like to see what someone who actually knows what they're talking about says about that.

What? You don’t use all your brine for picklebacks??

Although some living bacteria remain at the end of fermentation (even when refrigerated for weeks or months), they won’t be the same as what you’d want to start your fermentation with. The idea that the bacteria get "used up" isn’t far from the truth: the population of bacteria at the end of fermentation is very different than the starting population. Fermentation proceeds in several sequential waves, with one species dominating only to be supplanted by another as conditions (especially acidity) change. For those that care about the little guys, sauerkraut fermentation is usually initiated by Leuconostoc mesenteroides (this bacterium isn't very acid tolerant), then Lactobacillus brevis takes over (the exact species and order can vary), then Pediococcus pentosaceus, and finally Lactobacillus plantarum.

The population change during sauerkraut fermentation is different than what occurs when culturing yogurt. The same two species of bacteria (Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus) that are added to milk remain at the end of incubation. Thus, you can use a previous batch of yogurt to inoculate fresh milk.

But if you want to reuse some pickle brine, you might as well try it. Adding some fresh vegetables and leaving it in the refrigerator should amount to more marination than fermentation. You could even leave it room temperature for a few days and see what happens, but I’m not sure I’d recommend that. Because the brine is already so acidic, you won’t get the same progression of fermentation (and the resulting flavor). One thing to watch out for is diluting the salt too much (remember the fresh veggies will contribute water). If NaCl gets too low, you can get growth of spoilage microorganisms. If it smells or tastes bad, throw it out.

The "Kosher" Jewel on Howard Street in Evanston carries a large line of Bubbie's products, including sauerkraut.

A-Z Sales, a family owned joint that does cabbage and other pickled veggies, is trying to sell the business. They never made it beyond Fresh Farms, Garden Fresh and Produce World like outfits. Their products? I say they are OK, but nothing super exciting by my standards. I know a little joint in Highwood called "Full Belly" and they do expensive pickles in glass packaging. They claim to have accounts in Whole Foods and Sunset Foods, but I don't know much about their products... other than they (and Bubbies) are insanely expensive. Based on the visible interest from LTH readers I am wondering if refrigerated pickled products, naturally fermented without preservatives, are getting more popular with the main stream consumer and... assuming $3.50 - $4.00 retail price level per 32 Oz, could this idea become an easy gold mine? I've done lots Russian style kraut, Georgian style cabbage with beets, long hot peppers, tomatoes, sliced eggplants and more. Eggplants and Georgian cabbage are "way above the crowd". Or is it still a niche and will always stay that way? Obviously, the lower price creates the volume here, but are masses really craving it? Talk to me.

Listen to Rene G. In the wine biz we *never* "chain smoke" fermentations, that is, light a subsequent tank from an earlier one. You always start afresh. I've found that the same principles apply to more homely fermentation (or bacterial activities, if you wish) such as kraut, kim chi and pickles. Start with clean equipment (glass ware most importantly), use salt and spices properly, and watch the process like a hawk.

But also as Rene G suggests, some fermentations, esp. dairy, can be chained. In a proper, clean yogurt fermentation there is only the original set of bugs which remain at the end. So you can start a subsequent batch from the remains of the earlier one. But do NOT expect this procedure to last for many links: entry of other organisms is inevitable, and the original culture, although it remains dominant, will work in concert with various wild bugs, which will most certainly modulate the flavour profile of the final product.

In other words, keep a clean mother culture to return to after a few chained batches.

Geo

Rene G wrote:

This seems to more-or-less transliterate to "kapusta provencale" although the ingredients do not suggest the Midi. Is there a story there?

I am pleased to report that I found some Bubbies pickle products right near me. Thanks to all who helped me know what to look for. I found Bubbies kosher dill pickles, pickled green tomatoes, sauerkraut, and bread & butter slices (although those last have vinegar in the brine and no "live cultures" on the label), at the Garden Fresh Market in Mundelein.

Here's the wierd thing. One of my little gripes with GFM is I don't know if their pricing methods are just clueless or actively intended to insult the intelligence of the customers. They had Bubbies live-culture kosher dill pickles in two sizes: 33 ounces for $5.99 or 16 ounces for $5.99. Yes. The same price.

How long will they last in the fridge? Maybe I should go back and buy a few more 33-oz jars before GFM figures it out.

The wife and I have made sauerkraut for the last 40 years or so. I'd like to share our experiences so that you might get the satisfaction of a successful batch of kraut on your first try!

The first ingredient is going to be your "winter" cabbage. This is a cabbage that has thick leaves, more so than the store bought cabbage you find in the produce section. There are seed varieties that specifically mention for the production of sauerkraut. As my grand-father taught me, the most important thing in selecting your cabbage, is to get it after a couple of frosts have occurred in the growing area. It has been mentioned to me over the years that a frost has a sweetening effect on the cabbage. Perhaps it is just a signal indicating the proper time to start making sauerkraut, due to the cool weather. Either way, making kraut with the thin leaf cabbage during the summer usually results in the cabbage rotting in the crock. Here in Michigan, I usually start thinking about making kraut around the end of October, the first of November. Usually the farm markets are still going and you can get your “winter” cabbage by the bushel. And we’ve had a couple of frosts by then too. The basement is starting to cool nicely also.
Salt should be of the non-iodized canning type. I know it has been mentioned that 3 T. seems to be the magic amount used per layer of cabbage. Frankly, I've never measured the amount of salt I've used over the years. It has always been what fits in my cupped hand.

The Pounder. Your pounder is an important part of the process. When my grand-father taught me how to make sauerkraut, he went into the woods and cut a piece of green wood, approximately 5 inches in diameter and 12-14 inches long. He took a draw shave and removed the bark, and then bored a hole in one end to which he inserted a wooden shovel handle. I still have the "pounder" he made me forty years ago.
Stoneware Crocks are most preferred. I have both, the Harsch crocks and the standard open top crocks that your grand-mother always had in the basement. The German Harsch crocks are the next best thing to sliced bread when it comes to making kraut. There is no waste and the kraut seems to come out crunchy and wonderful. Although you will pay a handsome price for one of these crocks, they're well worth the price. The secret is the water ring seal around the top.
The standard open top crock has been used for many years with great results. We still use them along with the Harsch crocks. Although when your kraut is done fermenting and you go to process it, you will have to discard a few inches of dried ugly looking kraut off the top of the batch.

A Kraut Cutter is an item that makes little work of shredding the cabbage to the right consistency for kraut. They can be found at garage sales, flea markets or even ordered on-line new. Remember, these are sharp blades and it only takes one time adding a little "palm flesh" to a batch of shredded cabbage to learn to respect this item!

Our process goes something like the following. I quarter several heads of cabbage so the wife can start shredding. She uses a plastic pickle pail to catch the shredded cabbage in. When her pail is about ¾ full, I swap it for an empty and take the shredded cabbage to the basement. A handful of salt, and then I start pounding. When she calls me, I go and get the next pail of shredded cabbage, which I add to my pounded cabbage. Another handful of salt, and more pounding! After about 3-4 of these cycles, you should start to see a lot of liquid in your pounded cabbage. Your pounder should start to be sucked into the cabbage and offer some resistance when pulling it out. Once you got a fair amount of pounded kraut, you can transfer it to your crock. LIGHTLY, and I mean LIGHTLY, tap the kraut in your crock with your pounder to expel any air that may have been trapped when transferring the kraut from the pail to the crock. You don’t want to pound too hard and crack your crock. The plastic pail is for the pounding.
Once your crock is full, place a piece of cheesecloth over the kraut. On top of the cheesecloth, place a glass plate, and finally a 4-5 lb. flat rock that you’ve gleaned some farmer’s rock pile for. This is now the official kraut rock! Once you place your rock, the liquid produced from all the pounding should rise over the plate. Go ahead and skim this liquid once a week if you like. After about 6 weeks, you should see that the liquid has evaporated, and the top layer of kraut has dried out and the stink in the basement has diminished greatly. It's done!! If you are using the open top crock, then when you process your kraut, you’ll have to remove the first couple of inches of this top layer. You’ll be able to tell when you get down to the good stuff. With the Harsch crocks, you won’t have to discard any of your kraut. This is because you’ve maintained the water lock on the top and no air was allowed to dry out your kraut. These are great crocks and worth the money!
We freeze our kraut in zip-loc bags. Others can their kraut. Whatever you enjoy doing.
When preparing a dish with your kraut, I find it best to rinse it under cold water to remove a lot of the salt. Do a taste test and you’ll know when you’ve rinsed it enough.
I hope you find these notes helpful. Making sauerkraut is an enjoyable past-time, and doesn’t require a rocket science degree to make it.

Thank you so much, ricko, for taking the time to post that detailed tutorial. I don't know if I'm brave enough to try making sauerkraut myself, but I learned a lot!

I spotted Bubbie's pickles at another place up here in the Great White North (Lake County): Sunset Foods in Libertyville. I presume that means they're also at the Sunsets in Highland Park, Northbrook, and Long Grove. I failed to notice whether they had Bubbie's sauerkraut too; I'll check next time.

They carry Bubbie's products at the Whole Foods on Green Bay Road.

I am going to try making a batch of sauerkraut. I have a large stainless steel mixing bowl and a stainless potato masher that I was going to use to salt and mush the shredded cabbage. I recall reading somewhere that metal should be used. Is that really an issue? Should I avoid letting the cabbage come into contact with metal?

Thanks.

bw77 wrote:They carry Bubbie's products at the Whole Foods on Green Bay Road.

I am going to try making a batch of sauerkraut. I have a large stainless steel mixing bowl and a stainless potato masher that I was going to use to salt and mush the shredded cabbage. I recall reading somewhere that metal should be used. Is that really an issue? Should I avoid letting the cabbage come into contact with metal?

Thanks.

Hi,

My potato masher is metal, which I used to no negative results.

I weigh my cabbage before I begin slicing. I later weigh all the outer leaves and cores I discarded. I want to maintain the ratio of 25 pounds cabbage to 3/4 cup canning salt as per this National Home Center for Home Food PReservation.

You do need to be careful you are using canning salt, which has no additives. If you use Kosher salt, you need to read the label to be sure there are no additives. You may wish to read this post discussing how measuring salt and Kosher salt differs.

Have fun!

Regards,

Hi,

I am going over the border to buy my cabbage in Wisconsin on Thursday. I will be at Kendall College (Chicago and Halsted) on Saturday morning.

A bag of fresh picked cabbage weighs 50-60 pounds. When I bought it last, I paid around $8 or $9 for a bag.

If anyone wants a bag or wishes to share a bag with others, I can bring it for pick up on Saturday.

Regards,
Cathy2