Cathy, I might make two suggestions. Consider splitting your roast into two to reduce cooking time or, in the alternative begin checking the temperature regularly at three hours.

19 lbs is a huge roast. Not may home cooks cook one that large.

Sooo many suggestions ... what's the old saying? Something like "Too many cooks toil over broth"?

Cryovac vs. Non-cryovac is not a discussion that I really want to get into.

However, there are *very few* butcher places that still receive their meat on the carcass from my experience. Most butcher shops prefer to stock those cuts that they readily use and avoid those cuts that they don't sell.

Most beef comes in cryovaced in boxes by parts. A manager will order a case of tenderloins. Most shops take the tenderloins and will cut them into filets and the ends into cubes and sell it like that. Other retailers like your major groceries, Costco and Sams will offer the cryovaced parts for sale.

When I was in the business, one of my responsibilities was to visit my suppliers. I had the opportunity to work a shift at my meat purveyor in St. Louis as well as seeing several small butcher operations in Eastern Market in Detroit. Everyone should do it once.

Hi,

Will - I have definitely considered cutting them in half. If I wake up late and in a panic Christmas day, then cutting them in two will be high on my list. Though I am intrigued by attempting to cool the 'whole' piece. What is abundantly clear is monitoring temperture. My oven does have a temperature probe, which I have used enough to find it somewhat reliable. I may just keep set at a lower temperature, so I will know when I am in range.

Last night, I was at Whole Foods which was offering Choice-grade Rib Roast for $12+ per pound. Ed paid less for prime last year as a comparative. Jewel today is offering rib roast for $4.99 a pound, though at what grade?

Anyway, all the suggestions had a common thread of information: rib roast is temperature sensitive. I will attempt to brown it as recommended by Cook's, then roast it low and slow. I will pull at 115 as Steve, Evil and Will's information suggested. The jus will be from oxtails which Cook's recommended and Ed affirmed. The side dishes will reflect those suggested by Saveur including the horseradish cream, thanks to Erik. As Gary reminded, I will allow the meat to rest 15 or more minutes ... I have a restaurant-style heat lamp in the kitchen which I rarely use because I forget I have it, though I might let the meat rest under there to help retain its warmth. In any case guys, you have been a wealth of information and encouragement! I'll be thinking of you on Christmas as I make my way through this merry maze.

Merry Christmas,

Cathy2 wrote:Last night, I was at Whole Foods which was offering Choice-grade Rib Roast for $12+ per pound. Ed paid less for prime last year as a comparative. Jewel today is offering rib roast for $4.99 a pound, though at what grade?

Yikes, big range. Jewel's is almost certainly select. Was whole foods' dry aged, or not? I'd guess they'd charge even more for dry-aged.

I'm picking up my rib roast from devon ave meats tomorrow, so I'll let you know what the cost ends up being.

-ed

G Wiv wrote:As far as dry aging in a home refrigerator, the one time I attempted this the meat spoiled as opposed to aged. To properly dry age temperature and humidity needs to be fairly constant, as well as having air flow. A home refrigerator, that is opened and closed numerous times a day, does not lend itself to proper dry-aging. YMMV.

Enjoy,
Gary

A few years ago, Cook's Illustrated did a bit on home dry aging of beef. They concluded that about a five day dry age was safe and worthwhile. The Condiment Queen used home dry aging a few times, with roasts not nearly as high quality as rib roast. I would say that the dry aging did help, tenderizing and deepening the flavor of the meat. We used our basement fridge that is opened rarely.

Rob

Ed

I doubt the rib roasts I saw last night at Whole Foods were dry aged, it was way too rosy colored for aged. When I get over to Jewel later, I will check with the butcher the grade.

I read the same article VI did on Cook's some years ago. I will be just over 5 days. I will weigh it when I take it out Saturday and again after I trim off all the dry edges. This is going to be fun!

[edited for clarification and spelling]

Cathy2, two more things:

The Whole Foods by me (at least) sells dry aged beef, really gnarly-cool looking, but I have never tried. It is, as expected, quite expensive.

And as to the price of beef varying from last year, well yea, beef is a commodity that varies greatly in "actual" price (as compared to retail price). Yesterday, ReneG was showing me the menu from Apache, a very interesting Mexican-Pizza-plus stand across from Huck Finn donuts that has always intrigued me. The menu notes that they sell various meats by the pound, including octupus. But for barbacoa, they had no price beyond "market", reminding us that even for cattle heads, the price varies.

Vital Information wrote:Cathy2, two more things:

The Whole Foods by me (at least) sells dry aged beef, really gnarly-cool looking, but I have never tried. It is, as expected, quite expensive.

I've tried a dry-aged strip from whole foods, and it was very good, but not spectacular. The dry-aged ribeye I got from Market Foods in glenview was vastly superior (although it was a different cut of meat, and thus not quite comparable).

I wouldn't buy dry-aged from whole foods at that cost.

Cathy,

It looks like I will be joining you in the ribroast-athon. I just found out that we are hosting the Chow Poodle's family on Sunday night. I think a nice rib roast would be in order. I'm goiong to pick one up today or tomorrow at Peoria Packing.

Steve,

I'm glad you are joining the ranks. I'll be sure to post my experience on Christmas in case there is any wisdom you can glean from it. Will you do what I dream of doing: cook it on the grill?

Do you have access to Saveur or Cook's back issues I referred to? They may be of some help or at least a source of great ideas.

BTW - I bought sand for my smoker last night. The darn stuff is frozen and needs to be defrosted before I can dump it into my water pan for cold weather smoking!

Merle something, who used to have a butcher column, syndicated in many papers, and then later a tv show (good for showing you how to butcher, recipes not so intriguing) did a show once on dry-aging at home. He cautioned that it was generally discouraged, for reasons previously mentioned.

His method was to wrap the beef in kitchen towels made from sacking, what we call "moppina's" in my family. The big white standard of the professional kitchen. Then you changed the moppina about twice a day, IIRC.

This served to draw liquid out of the meat, and then removed the liquid, which is the part that is going to first spoil or cause spoilage.

He also did this on a meat roasting rack over a pan, with no covering, IIRC.

Someone else may know more.

Happy holidays!

Is it Merle Ellis of Cut Up And Cook?

Cathy2 wrote:Steve,

I'm glad you are joining the ranks. I'll be sure to post my experience on Christmas in case there is any wisdom you can glean from it. Will you do what I dream of doing: cook it on the grill?

Do you have access to Saveur or Cook's back issues I referred to? They may be of some help or at least a source of great ideas.

BTW - I bought sand for my smoker last night. The darn stuff is frozen and needs to be defrosted before I can dump it into my water pan for cold weather smoking!

Chances are I will cook it on the smoker or the Weber grill (I have done it that way at least a dozen times), but I might end up oven roasting it. That will be a game day call.

In terms of sand, I did my first BBQ catering job over the weekend and used sand when smoking some pork butts for pulling. I managed to get the last bag of sand at my local Home Depot. It had a hole in it, but I didn't care because I only needed enough for my sand pan and it was frozen solid so nothing was pouring out of the hole. When I brought the sand home and put it in my unheated garage overnight with only the residual heat from my car's engine, it warmed up enough to easily pour when it came time to start the cook.

Cathy2, I've settled on low and slow, with just a salt and pepper rub, but I only do 3 or 4 rib roasts. I do have the butcher remove the chine and french the ribs, but I don't have him separate the meat from the ribs. Though it's a lot of money, try the dry-aged prime from Niman Ranch some time. And save a little for a roast beef sandwich the next day.

stevez wrote: I'm goiong to pick one up today or tomorrow at Peoria Packing.

Z,

PP is selling whole standing rib roasts? Personally, as much as I love PP for pork and chicken I have never been enamored with their beef. My suggestion, since you have a fear of Costco cryovac, is to go to Devon Ave Meats, which is probably going to run you $10 per lb for prime dry-age standing rib roast.

Just as an aside, when I recommend using a WSM direct for standing rib roast I mean without the waterpan in place. Nothing between fire and meat.

Enjoy,
Gary

Devon Avenue Meats
800 Devon Ave
Park Ridge, IL 60068
847-825-0478
(Inside Morningfield's grocery)

G Wiv wrote:

stevez wrote: I'm goiong to pick one up today or tomorrow at Peoria Packing.

Z,

PP is selling whole standing rib roasts? Personally, as much as I love PP for pork and chicken I have never been enamored with their beef. My suggestion, since you have a fear of Costco cryovac, is to go to Devon Ave Meats, which is probably going to run you $10 per lb for prime dry-age standing rib roast.

Just as an aside, when I recommend using a WSM direct for standing rib roast I mean without the waterpan in place. Nothing between fire and meat.

Enjoy,
Gary

Devon Avenue Meats
800 Devon Ave
Park Ridge, IL 60068
847-825-0478
(Inside Morningfield's grocery)

The last couple of times I was at Peoria, they had some pretty good looking standing rib roasts on display. I'm not looking for a whole one, a 4 - 5 bone roast will fill my needs. Since I'm so close, I'm going to give Peoria a serious look beofre spending the extra $$ at a butcher. If I do the direct cook method, I'll use my grill. I've had really great results that way in the past. If I use the WSM, it will be to smoke it low and slow. I haven't decided yet. I may even end up doing it in the oven. Like I said, It will be a last minute call based on the weather and my mood on Sunday morning.

stevez wrote:If I do the direct cook method, I'll use my grill. I've had really great results that way in the past.

Z,

You're talking lump charcoal on a Weber Kettle , right?

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote:

stevez wrote:If I do the direct cook method, I'll use my grill. I've had really great results that way in the past.

Z,

You're talking lump charcoal on a Weber Kettle , right?

Enjoy,
Gary

Of course...unless you know where I can get some Kingsford cheap.

In my life before search engines allowed me to find recipes I thought were long gone, I kept (and still keep) a file drawer of recipes people have given me or I clipped from the newspaper. It helps when I am looking to verify was it indeed Merle Ellis who wrote the Butcher column; yes, he did. My filing system also stirs up food columnists who have long gone like Peter Kump of the Trib Food section and Roy Andries De Groot of the Trib's Taste. The Taste section was every Monday with very interesting food writing, which our harshest Chicago Tribune Food Section critics would have approved. It ran for several years from the late 70's into the early 80's, then faded away.

This morning while flipping through the folder 'Beef,' I found an article by Peter Kump on Prime Ribs of Beef.

Peter Kump, circa 1986 wrote:If I were asked to list North America's greatest foods I unhesitatingly would place prime ribs of beef on it. In fact, for the ultimate dinner to wow a foreigner, I would propose it as the main course.

Most Europeans have tasted the unaged meat there known as rost-bif, but compared to anything we serve in America, it is like the difference between fresh and canned peas.

In this article, he consults with butcher Leon Lobel of NY for selection tips:

- Plenty of Marbling: the lines of fat running through the meat help lubricate and keep it moist during cooking
- A pinkish color: Beef that is very red is old; check under the rib bone if possible.
- Pure white fat: this indicates freshness; yellow fat means that the meat is older.

What I especially liked was the menu because it just sings American to Europeans (Ok, the horseradish sauce is borrowed from the English):

Ceasar Salad
Prime Ribs of Beef
Horseradish Cream Sauce
Oven Roasted Potatoes
Key Lime Pie

In this column, there is also mention of grass fed beef and a vendor where to acquire it. Cutting edge information in 1986.

Really I do miss Peter Kump's columns, there was food science, food history and solid performing recipes. I forget how good he really was until I need something a search engine cannot satisfy and reread his columns.

Cathy2 wrote:What I especially liked was the menu because it just sings American to Europeans (Ok, the horseradish sauce is borrowed from the English):

Ceasar Salad
Prime Ribs of Beef
Horseradish Cream Sauce
Oven Roasted Potatoes
Key Lime Pie

A great menu, but the Caesar Saladis borrowed from the Mexicans (or, mopre properly, an Italian immigrant living in Mexico). Intrestingly enough, the article that I linked to cites Tribune food writer Peter Krump as a source.

Hi Steve,

We could parse further because the key lime is not native to the America's, rather it is from Southwest Asia and was introduced to Europe via the Crusades. Yet, you will not likely find a Key Lime Pie in Europe and they are pretty tough to find here!

Peter Kump provided a lot of food history in his articles. When I was developing my pie talk, I revisited some of his pie articles and used his information.

Peter Kump was a syndicated columnist who had a cooking school in New York.

Regards,

Cathy,

I guess that's why they call us the great melting pot. Speaking of which, I've got a taste for some fondue....but I digress.

This is a work-in-progress to be updated:

6 AM: First riser removes roast from refrigerator. Oh boy, we have space!

8 AM: Set oven to 400, rub oxtails with tomato paste and toss onions with olive oil to roast while I prepare rib roast.
Weighed the roast: weighs around 19 pounds, not the most sensitive of scales. Sharpened my boning knife and took thin slivers of dried beef off. The meat underneath was roughly the same dark maroon color. After a while, I could not visually determine where I had done my work, though my hands could feel a dry-moist difference. I removed 14 ounces of dried meat and fat in the thinnest of slivers. I didn't bother working the meat around the bones.

To remove the bones, I began by simply trying to loosen the end bone, because I wanted to know the geometry of the joint. After a while I simply ran a knife along the bottom edge of the long bones, then I pulled it open enough to see what connective tissues needed cutting afterwards it was a breeze.

To brown, I used a large baking pan, which covered both front and back burners. If I was working with a small roast, I would have begun with the fatty side, but I had the big Mama to contend with. I rubbed the entire roast with olive oil, and then held it up end for 5 minutes while it browned, then the other side. I then held the roast with the narrow ridge between the fat cap and bones lie to let it brown. Only then did I brown the fat cap for 10 minutes.

While the fat cap browned, being very cognizant of the time, I decided to perform a Stupid Cathy Trick: tie the bones back on while browning the fat cap. The first one was the worst; I used a spoon to lift the edge while snaking in the kitchen string. Once I had it on, then I could lift using the kitchen string to get more locations tied. Don't cut the tails of your string too fast, sometimes the knots loosen from grease and weight. If you cut them too fast, you may find yourself revisiting this area for retying. I speak from unpleasant experience.

When the fat cap was browned, I used my strings to reposition the roast rib side down. I scattered the oxtails and onions to the bottom of the pan. I rubbed the roast with Dijon mustard to hold the kosher salt and pepper. The roast goes into a 250-degree oven for its cook at 9:15.

[edited to correct small details: how much was trimmed off and when I began my cook]

Yes, Merle Ellis of Cut Up & Cook.

Unfortunately my brother-in-law and his wife served Prime Rib for Christmas dinner. I'm not sure of all of the details about how he cooked it but from my observations the roast was heavily seasoned with too much salt, cooked in Nesco roaster, with at least a gallon of some sort of liquid in it. Possible water or canned beef stock till well done. I when I saw it.

The leftovers looked like overcooked chuck roast. I did choke down a small fatty piece.

HI,

I am wiped out, though very happy with the rib roast I cooked today.

My dinner was planned for 2 PM today to accomodate the babies in the family. By my standards, I had planned a leisurely day in the kitchen moving from one task to another. It would be uninterrupted work at a leisurely pace with no real rush. When the timer went off at 3 hours, I was going to check the temperature on the roast as Will suggested. Since my roast was so large at almost 19 pounds, checking any earlier didn't make sense. I thought I would simply note the temperature, make the Yorkshire pudding dough to allow it to rest and proceed to make cooked frosting (pecans, coconut, raisins and cranberries). Yeah, my best laid plans went straight out the window when I observed a center temperature of 109 degrees! My goodness this roast is 6 degrees away from completion. It reached 115 degrees at 12:45 PM, it only took 3.5 hours to cook this roast; which kicked my 5 hour estimate in the shins.

First things first: I had my Mother call my relatives to speed their arrival because dinner was going to be uncharacteristically early. I then went into full warp speed cooking in the kitchen. I made the Yorkshire pudding dough. Pulled the roast, arranged it on a platter, loosely tented aluminum foil (shiny side in) and put it under a heat lamp. I poured all the juices of the rib roast and oxtails into a quart measuring cup to seperate the fat for the Yorkshire pudding. I got my brother-in-law, sister and cousin into vegetable trimming and peeling. It was a race to finish up every side dish, so dinner could be on the table with the last arriving guest.

When the last person arrived, the Yorkshire puddings were just completing. I carved the meat on a side table. I was a bit worried because the ends seemed cool to the touch. I was thinking all this effort and by bad timing, we're stuck eating a cold dinner. I was wrong, the surface may be cool though the center was quite warm. The very edges were a lightly pink fully cooked, otherwise most of the roast was rare to medium rare. Only one person felt compelled to cook their meat further in the microwave; though I knew and expected this before from prior experience.

The meat was very flavorful and tender. I didn't need to supply more robust steak knives, the cutlery from our formal dinner set was sufficient. The mustard, kosher salt and ground pepper crust on the fat cap was delicious.

What I don't really know was what, if any, my home dry aging contributed to the outcome of this meal. I'm actually waiting for my cousin to come home from dinner at his Dad's. They were serving rib roast purchased at Sam's Club, which I assume was Choice-grade and certainly purchased just before the holiday without any dry aging. He came to sample my roast, and ended up doing kitchen help, so he could offer me an objective comparison. I am not about to compete with my Aunt, I just really need some feedback and he was my best opportunity for a relatively contemporary side-by-side comparison.

The only real victim of this early finishing roast was my cake. I never did make the frosting. I was considering turning it into a Trifle, layering it with Apricot jam, whipping cream and whatever else I had around. In the end, someone suggested just slicing it up and eating it as-is along with Christmas cookies. Not quite as festive as my original vision, though I was really quite pooped from hectic pace of the last hour. I decided to let go of my vision, live with what-is and nobody seemed to care the cake was naked because it still tasted good.

I hope your dinners were as successful and your guests as forgiving of your quirks as mine are of me.

Merry Christmas!

Our 11 pound prime rib came out of the oven right on schedule at 4:15. We did the Cooks Illustrated recipe, with the oxtails ($8!, but in light of how much the meat cost, who am I to complain?) and the onions cooking down before we added the browned roast. We pulled it at 122, in deference to an honored guest who was eating for 3, though 115 would have provided more rare meat for the rare-meat eating cooks. I have the bones in a bag in the fridge, contemplating a future hash, but otherwise the 10 of us finished it off. We also had roasted root veggies (another CI recipe), brussel spouts dry fried with Indian spices by son-in-law Rish, monkey bread made from the leftovers of the batch of potato bread dough I made up yesterday for pecan rolls, fruit salad, green and black olives from Fox and Obel and Caputo Cheese respectively, and, I confess, a last minute addition of Hungry Jack mashed potatoes, which in fact proved to be an excellent vehicle for the great sauce made from the meat juices.

For dessert, after we had cleared the table and opened presents so we could even think about food again, we had an Entremet Manjari from Vanille Pastisserie, and a wonderful Julia Child apple galette, made with homemade puff pastry by sister-in-law Rhonda and her daughter Kristen.

A great meal, and none of it seemed like so much work that we didn't have time to sit down and enjoy our guests (of course I might have felt otherwise if I'd been trying to make the puff pastry myself).

And yes, we did have our traditional breakfast pizza. Can't go wrong with pizza flour and whole milk mozzerella from Caputo Cheese.

Ann Fisher wrote: green and black olives from Fox and Obel and Caputo Cheese respectively

whole foods, not fox and obel.

What I don't really know was what, if any, my home dry aging contributed to the outcome of this meal. I'm actually waiting for my cousin to come home from dinner at his Dad's. They were serving rib roast purchased at Sam's Club, which I assume was Choice-grade and certainly purchased just before the holiday without any dry aging. He came to sample my roast, and ended up doing kitchen help, so he could offer me an objective comparison. I am not about to compete with my Aunt, I just really need some feedback and he was my best opportunity for a relatively contemporary side-by-side comparison.

If I wait up long enough, my cousin finally rings in his report:

Ever the diplomat and sensible guy he is, he said both rib roasts were very good and worth revisiting.

He compared my Aunt's rib roast to a rib roast meal he had at a private club downtown. He said the quality of the meat and preparation was about the same. He opined the taste was typical "cookie cutter" rib roast, which would meet everyone's expectations and experience.

He then said my rib roast was very different from the standard he encounters. He said the flavor and texture was better than the private club rib roast frame of reference. (Please note: I do not know what club he is referring to.) So for this reason he tipped the scale in my favor over the non-dry aged roast, though AGAIN he said both were very good rib roasts.

I am pleased my cousin enjoyed two fine meals. I am especially pleased the extra effort to home dry age and trim the roast was noticeable.

FYI: My 19 pound roast fed 15 adults. I have left: the ribs and maybe a pound of meat plus the bonus oxtails.