annieb wrote:In a pinch, the greek hollow spaghetti will do, but it's really for something else, as is perciatelli. It's bucatini you want.

Expanding on Annieb's point above...

Bucatini and Perciatelli, are these days thought of as essentially interchangeable by most people as the smallest gauge «maccheroni» in the narrow sense, that is, tubular pasta. The name «bucatini» is Roman in origin and the name «perciatelli» is Neapolitan in origin but Annieb is right that these are not just different names for precisely the same thing. The difference is that perciatelli are slightly thicker, with a diameter ca. 1-2 mm. greater than that of bucatini. I tend to be conservative and fastidious in following certain aesthetic principles in matching pasta shapes with sauces and I don't think using perciatelli in place of bucatini with a sauce alla matriciana could possibly be considered barbarous.* But that problem doesn't really ever come up for me, for nowadays bucatini are made by all brands and can be found almost anywhere, while real perciatelli have become quite hard to find. Nowadays, the problem is more whether one drops down to the more string-like bucatini or steps up to full-blown (and not long) tubes for Neapolitan dishes such as perciatelli con ricotta e pomodoro. For making such decisions, I usually consult the entrails of a freshly sacrificed bird or squirrel.

Once upon a time, when in this country such «hollow spaghetti» was pretty much only eaten by Italian-Americans, perciatelli seemed to be easier to find than bucatini, at least in the strongly Neapolitan New Jersey-New York area, presumably on account of the fact that Neapolitan brands of pasta were widely carried there. Here in Chicago, I know of no Italian store that carries a range of products from any of the Neapolitan makers. As much as I love the pastas made by the good Pugliesi (e.g., Divella) and Abruzzesi (e.g., De Cecco and Del Verde and especially Coco) makers, I believe this would be a far better city in which to live if some shop stocked and sold a full array of Neapolitan pasta.

I like the Greek brand Misko and their #5 makaronia are about the size of perciatelli when dry, but I find that Greek pasta in general is best suited for Greek applications, where it is traditionally cooked till soft, that is, from an Italian perspective, overcooked, past the «al dente» stage. None of the Greek brands I know seem to use the same quality of wheat as the best major Italian producers or, of course, the high-end producers.

***

Regarding the use of fresh pasta with guanciale, I would guess that it's done somewhere in Italy (I hope I'm not forgetting something obvious!) but, as Choey noted in his post of the recipe above, alla matriciana and, for that matter, alla carbonara are dishes that... how shall I put it... are not intended to minimise the presence of pork fat. I think silky, thin fresh egg pasta would not stand up so well to the presence of a fair amount of pork fat, though employing a more substantial cut of fresh pasta, such as the pappardelle mentioned by Choey, seems to somehow bring things into a better balance (at least psychologically!) -- and in this regard, note that it's pappardelle that are typically paired with duck. Beyond that, alla matriciana is a dish with hot chile in it and one hardly ever sees combinations of fresh egg pasta with pepperoncini. This is surely in large measure a result of the fact that chile tends to be used in the south, where fresh egg pasta tends to be reserved for stuffed preparations (which themselves also rarely involve hot chile). But I can see an aesthetic argument to be made here: fresh egg pasta works best with either relatively delicate dressings or more substantial but round (if you know what I mean) dressings such as ragù alla Bolognese.

Now, hereabove I kept using the qualification of 'egg' in conjunction with 'fresh pasta' and did so because I think another, specifically central and southern Italian and in this country rather neglected fresh pasta is the one made without eggs and using only semolina rather than '00'. This is the kind of fresh pasta I usually make and I think a dish of semolina fettucine or laganelle dressed with guanciale would be fabulous. Or perhaps some 'hats' (half-way between gnocchetti sardi and orecchiete) with peas, guanciale and ricotta salata [Choey: and mint, and parsley]. In fact, if I somehow get a hold of some of this guanciale, that's what I'll do.

***

Gary:

I was wondering why you referred to Marcella Hazan as a French chef. I always thought of her as German.

Antonius

* In a pinch, I think (thick) spaghetti would work quite well with alla matriciana; after all, that dish is but a tomato-ised variant of spaghetti alla carbonara. I would, however, make an adjustment in preparation: I would cut my dadini (cubes) of pork a little smaller if I were using spaghetti rather than bucatini.

Bill, if I'm reading Niman's website correctly, there are only two choices: the skin-on jowl or the guanciale (Pork cheeks are different than jowl: cheeks are a braising cut. To see the difference between cheek and jowl, take a look at a picture of Richard J. Daley). The difference in the two products is skinning and curing, for which they charge you $7 (the yield will be the same if you do it yourself, I think). I pay $5/lb for Venetian brand guanciale locally (at Joseph's Foods on Irving Park Rd: in the cooler on the right as you get to the fish counter) and about the same if I order jowl from the butcher and cure it myself. My innate laziness leads me to recommend ordering the guanciale. Hey, Niman throws in free shipping (the heroin of the Internet) if you order three or more items.

Giovanna, we would need several threads to even dent Sicialian food, but east and west sides of the island had very different food influences and traditions. The Arab west (sultanas, pine nuts, saffron, intense sweets) is the home of the great Pasta cu li Sarde (fennel, onions, sultanas, sardines and served with 'u pirciatu: perciatelli) and should be eaten daily when you're any where between Palermo and Agrigento. I haven't found a good cookbook for Sicilian food, but I have the Tornabenes' and Mary Taylor Simeti's (both so-so). However, I have the good fortune of having a friend from outside Palermo and a brother-in-law from Cefale ("the Sicilian Butcher" refers to his occupation, not any connection with criminal elements). Still, as hard as it is to find the proper tomato here, just try finding mountain fennel. Capirai...

Antonius, I'm going to be on Harlem Ave this week, so I'll check for Neapolitan pastas as Joseph's and Riviera. You are a constant source of amazement and bewilderment. Today we learn you're a practicing haruspex: another hidden talent, no doubt you are descended from the Cumaean Sibyl!

Choey wrote:Bill, if I'm reading Niman's website correctly, there are only two choices: the skin-on jowl or the guanciale (Pork cheeks are different than jowl: cheeks are a braising cut. To see the difference between cheek and jowl, take a look at a picture of Richard J. Daley).

Choey,

I order from NR's wholesale price list (I really do cook a lot of meat!) which has dozens of products not on the web site. So I'm still a little confused: is guanciale made from cheek or jowl. Loved the comment about Daley!

Bill/SFNM

Bill, guanciale is made from the jowl, not the cheek.

This conversation caused me to look at an old Italian cookbook that I won at some Tony Priolo (Coco Pazzo) demonstration a year or two back at the Printers Row book fair.

The book--Great Italian Cooking: La Grande Cucina Internazionale, by Luigi Carnacina--is immense in scope, with probably 1500-2000 recipes. A friend has used this particular book as his primary Italian resource for some time, but I have no particular connection to it, have never cooked from it, and am not quite sure what to make of it.

A quick Google search reveals an eGullet poster calling the author "the Italian James Beard," and his cookbook was edited by the late Luigi Veronelli, apparently another seminal figure in the modern world of Italian cuisine.

My point of curiosity is the apparent authoritativeness of the book in contrast with some seemingly odd recipes. I had hoped it would provide "canonical" recipes; I believe I was disabused of that notion when trying to make a bolognese sauce, though I ought to look up his method again.

In relation to this particular thread, while he gives several bucatini recipes, it is for spaghetti all' amatricana that this book calls. Most striking, in light of this thread, is that he calls for sweet red pepper.

My guess is that the recipe was published for American tastes at a time (1968) when chili peppers were unwelcome and unavailable. Still, it is quite interesting. Does anyone know, is this variation found elsewhere in Italy?

Bill, it's jowl: a thin strip of ineffably wonderful muscle burried in an inch or so of delectable fat. Since I don't have handy a copy of "Gross Morphology of S. domesticus," I can't even guess what jowl muscle does (the former Mayor used it to discourage dissent). Cheek, on the other hand, I presume is one of the muscles involved in mastication (and perhaps the inimitable grin of a happy pig), so it does real work and is stringy and tough (perfect for braising).

Aaron, I've had a bad Roman pork habit for over twenty years and I've never seen a sweet pepper in any of these dishes in-country. And I haven't seen them that often in the US, either.

Now, the red and yellow bell pepper as a sauce base for rabbit or chicken is another story (and a pretty good one, too).

Bill, Choey:

I don't think Italian normally distinguishes between cheek and jowl as independent anatomical elements, just as some languages use the same word for 'leg' and 'foot'. Both 'cheek' and 'jowl' are covered by guancia so far as I know but that obviously wouldn't stop them from using only the texturally most approapriate part of a guancia for guanciale, as Choey indicates.

***

Giovanna:

A very good (though not so comprehensive as the title implies) cookbook for Southern Italian recipes, including some from Sicily, is Carlo Middione's The Food of Southern Italy. Another book that doesn't focus exclusively on Sicily but does more so than Middione's is Giuliano Bugialli's Foods of Sicily and Sardinia; I don't own this (yet), but it's a beautiful book by a great chef and student of Italian regional cooking. An added bonus are the recipes from Sardinia and the minor islands.

Specifically on Sicilian cooking, I find Simeti's Pomp and Sustenance an interesting work but it doesn't have all that many recipes. Two books by the American actor of Sicilian descent, Victor Schiavelli, that I have enjoyed are Papa Andrea's Sicilian Table (with lots of recipes) and Bruchulinu, America (with fewer recipes). Another book on Sicilian cuisine in English that you may come across is Clifford Wright's Cucina Paradiso, a work which includes some interesting recipes but the real point of the book seems to be to prove and illustrate Wright's belief that almost all food traditions of the Mediterranean are Arab in origin: I find his thinking so patently exaggerated and so often simple-minded that it's almost impossible for me to focus on the recipes and so I leave the book amouldering. In any event, he obviously favours inclusion of dishes that smack of the real or imagined Arab influence.*

A cookbook that has a real fond spot in my heart is Nancy Verde Barr's We Called It Macaroni. Barr is an Italo-American from Providence and she writes of the (southern) Italian food that was made in her very Italo-American surroundings there in Rhode Island. There are many fine recipes in her work and they are already, quite naturally, adapted for American conditions. The material in this book might well remind you of your grandmother's cooking.

If you can read Italian, that opens up a whole other world of books and nowadays also websites. I like to get strange little local cookbooks and have, for example, one book that combines folklore and cookery (in Italian) from the island of Pantelleria (between Sicily and Tunisia, nearer the latter), home of the world's finest capers; it has some really great recipes.

***

Choey:

I haven't been to Joseph's and need to go, I guess; I've heard tell they are Napolitani and I'm curious to see what they carry. Riviera has a nicely broad selection of pasta but I haven't seen more than a couple of shapes by any one producer from Campania (Voiello trenette are great). Last time I was there (New Year's Eve) their selection of La Molisana products (from Molise), which I love, was very limited. Perhaps they were awaiting a shipment. In any event, please let us know what you find.

Antonius

* Mind you, I don't have anything against Arabs or Arab cuisine nor do I feel any need to deny the existence of external influences on the development of cuisine in Italy and Sicily. Quite the opposite, in fact. But Wright rides his hobby horse with too much enthusiasm and then kills it and beats it endlessly.

Antonius, I believe the Nasti family (Joseph's Foods) is Barese. Come to think of it, I don't know a single Napolitano business on Harlem Ave, but I'm probably in error. I'll reconnoiter a few of the locals and see what I can find out.

Regarding decent canned tomatoes, I should mention that the Lombard Costco had, last week, gallon cans of very solid Nina brand SM's, for something like 3 bucks a can. I had not seen these before in Lombard or the city (where I usually shop).

Also, following the theme in a very roundabout way, 2001 Far Niente cab was well-stocked and selling at $76 a pop. That's a very good price. Now, I know this is an over-hyped over-advertised label, but the critique of this vintage of this wine has been overwhelmingly positive.

Last, but not least, for those who like pork fat (anyone reading this thread) will enjoy the steamed "bacon" at Andy's. It's a little heavy on the alloro, but it's very, very good. I think Zim has sung it's praises before.

My shipment of guanciale arrived yesterday, so today I prepared bucatini al' amatriciana (the full-on Festa Romana is postponed due to fatigue). Choey is right; this way of making pasta is now my favorite. The only way it could possibly be better is when my tomato garden starts producing this summer. Next: carbonara!

I got some guanciale from Fox & Obel and made bucatini al' amatriciana last night. It made me ponder all the bad to mediocre meals I've had in "Italian" restaurants when a dish like this is so simple and so heavenly. Thanks to Antonius and all the posters on this one.

Jonah

What was the brand (and price) at Fox & Obel?

rien

Brand I'm not sure of. Not Niman. Price was $14/lb when I saw it.

-ed

This reminds me: yesterday at Sam's, I bought some Carr Valley Cardona (fantastic, but almost twice what it costs direct from Carr Valley's site) and some Westphalian ham. I like what they have in the deli, I really do. But the help isn't much help, which strikes me as strange for a store with something of a rep for intimidating novice wine buyers. What's the Cardona like? Both deli persons respond that it's really hard to describe, not like any thing else. Hmmm. Way to push the $26 # cheese. As for the ham: the guy says, it's from Switzerland, the gal says, no, it's from England -- our British customers love it and it's named after a town there. I say, I thought it was German. No, definitely not German.

JeffB wrote:... and some Westphalian ham... As for the ham: the guy says, it's from Switzerland, the gal says, no, it's from England -- our British customers love it and it's named after a town there. I say, I thought it was German. No, definitely not German.

Doof is' doof...

I guess the trained professionals were out to lunch...



A

annieb wrote:THE FOOD EXCHANGE
7162 S EXCHANGE AVE, CHICAGO, IL 60649
Phone: (773) 978-4940

has in the past had a good stock of porky products, including country ham, (whole, bits and pieces) country-cure bacon and jowl.

The Food Exchange closed about a year ago. Someone in the neighborhood (who misses the store) told me it was owned by the Treasure Island people. He thought TI might still carry the same cured meats.

I'm sad to hear that. Food Exchange had country ham, jowl, mawl, etc. things I've never seen at TI. Also when I worked out that way I could sometimes pick up nice loin lamb chops, cheap. They did their own butchering, and you could actually ask to talk to the butcher and the butcher would come out and talk to you.

LTHers,

For those of us who dabble in Southern cooking, I'd like to mention a recent discovery of mine that carries a wide selection of cured pork products, the Fairway store at Ashland and Cermak.

Country ham steaks, biscuit slices, hocks, seasoning meat, salt pork and jowl, rind on smoked bacon, and smoked neckbones can be found among a good selection of typical grocery store meat and fish offerings, and a Mexican butcher counter as well.

Evil Ronnie wrote:LTHers,

For those of us who dabble in Southern cooking, I'd like to mention a recent discovery of mine that carries a wide selection of cured pork products, the Fairway store at Ashland and Cermak.

Country ham steaks, biscuit slices, hocks, seasoning meat, salt pork and jowl, rind on smoked bacon, and smoked neckbones can be found among a good selection of typical grocery store meat and fish offerings, and a Mexican butcher counter as well.

ER:

Could the place you mean perhaps be Fairplay at the southwest corner of Western and Cermak? In any event, your post got Amata and me to check Fairplay out; indeed, lots of smoked pork products and some impressively good prices on meat generally, as well as on lots of other basic grocery items. I'm a little mad at myself for not checking this place out sooner. It had been recommended to me for some items by a couple of other people who know what they're talking about and it's the nearest large grocery store to us here in Tri-Taylor (but oh how I miss El Becerrito... ).

So then, thanks¡

A

Antonius,

You are correct, Fairplay, at Western and Cermac.

Another item I really like is their nice, fatty raw corned beef points, rather than the more widely found 1st cut / flats. I think I'll be picking up some root vegetables from Nichols this coming Tuesday morning at Federal Plaza for a boiled dinner.

And since I've been dreaming about doing some Boston baked beans for months, I had better get those beans soaking.

m'th'su wrote:I would not discount the possibility of Joe the Sausage King providing something close. I bought uncured pork jowl from him once long ago. If he can still get it I'm certain he'd be agreeable to smoking it.

Joe's Market
4452 N. Western
773-478-5443

Why, yes, King Joe, does one helluva guanciale! He just needs advance notice. Going there is so much fun- he could charge me for the entertainment and I wouldn't even mind!
Another place you can pick up the real thing is at Lincoln Quality Market. They're also in Lincoln Square, on the corner of Lincoln and Leland, across from the farmers market parking lot.

Must be a full moon, I spent my lunch hour looking for Fairplay at Ashland and Cermak (after confirming with a friend who lives in the area that they did recently have country ham).

Finally ended up rolling down my window and asking somebody on Cermak west of Ashland where Fairplay was, got precise directions.

And some country ham slices, but my favorite, and theirs were nice and lean, bits and pieces.

Thanks to Evil Ronnie for the tip. Mess of greens on Saturday.

Fairplay Finer Foods
2200 S. Western
Chicago, IL 60608
(773) 254-2576

Other Locations:

2323 W. 111th St.
Chicago, IL 60643
(773) 779-8536

4640 S. Halsted
Chicago, IL 60609
(773) 247-6997

710 W. 43rd St.
Chicago, IL 60609
(773) 254-3026

8631 W. 95th St.
Hickory Hills, IL 60457
(708) 430-7806

6620 W. 111th St.
Worth, IL 60482
(708) 448-6338

1221 E. Sibley Blvd.
Dolton, IL 60419
(708) 849-7908

3057 W. 159th St.
Markham, IL 60426
(708) 331-2646

Last spring we went to Italy and in a shop on the edge of Montipulciano bought about a pound of guanciale. It may have ruined my life. I had never cooked with guanciale before. It was a little leaner than the pancetta that I am used to but the flavor... a little nutty, a little allspicy, a bit of pepper, earthy, round, full. Like all that is good about pork and life
swirled together. After I used it up I didn't buy pancetta for months. It was that much better.

And here is the disapointment: Kasia recently bought some guanciale at Fox and Obel produced by Salumerie Biellese. I lowered my expectations, tried to temporarily forget the trancendence if the Montepulciano product and made an alla matriciana sauce. It was passable. That's all. C-/D+ at best. The guanciale was almost all fat (which is fine -- I like fat) and the texture was fine but the flavor was dull. No earth, no charm, not even a pleasing saltiness. Restrained to the point of being reticent -- almost mute, really. A step below Volpi pancetta.

What gives? Has anyone else had any experiences with this product? Did I get a bum batch? Has anyone had any recent luck finding other Guanciale around here? Do I have to go back to Italy to a shop, the name of which I can't even remember, to recapture the porky pleasure that the Italian guanciale provided? Am I doomed to chase this high the rest of my days always disappointed by lesser pork products? Or should I give up and become a vegetarian?

Once upon a time, when in this country such 'hollow spaghetti' was pretty much only eaten by Italian-Americans, perciatelli seemed to be easier to find than bucatini, at least in the strongly Neapolitan New Jersey-New York area, presumably on account of the fact that Neapolitan brands of pasta were widely carried there. Here in Chicago, I know of no Italian store that carries a range of products from any of the Neapolitan makers. As much as I love the pastas made by the good Pugliesi (e.g., Divella) and Abruzzesi (e.g., De Cecco and Del Verde and especially Coco) makers, I believe this would be a far better city in which to live if some shop stocked and sold a full array of Neapolitan pasta.

If anyone happens to be looking for perciatelli, August carries De Cecco perciatelli.

August: A Grocery Store
1500 W Division St
Chicago, IL 60622
(773) 252-9560

Looking for an update on where people have been grabbing guanciale these days and what they've been liking.

I saw here that Pannozzos carries La Quercia. Are there other confirmed places to buy La Quercia guanciale? I did look at their website but they have a number of vendors in the Chicago area and before calling many places, I as looking for any first-hand sightings around town.

Have people had better or similar products from other makers?

(incidentally, this thread has to be competing for top honors in percentage real estate devoted to subjects other than the titular one).

Bari has carried guanciale for a while now. It's rather overpriced (like $17/lb or thereabouts) so I don't get it very often. When I have, it's been a bit too fatty for my taste.

I've also gotten it at Cippolina on Damen. the guy claimed last year that he was gonna make it himself but hey haven't had it the last couple times I've been in.

Have people had better or similar products from other makers?

Did you see this?

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=27264

It's about $14/lb. on the website.

This lovely paean to guanicole in Salon gives me a good excuse to revive this thread for any unfortunate (soon to be very happy) souls who may have missed it earlier.

You could make chef Cotto's recipe, but I promise you'll also be very happy if you just stick with Antonius' classic (and very similar) version above.

I currently have about 1.5lbs of guanciale from Salumi in Seattle in my travel bag. Picked it up yesterday while in the city for a conference. Can't wait to use it ! I figger it'll be OK being unrefrigerated for a while, right ?