I won't buy from Farmer Fleeceyou

i prefer to buy locally grown produce when feasable. so i naturally like the farmer's market. the caveat to my stated preference is that i'm only willing to pay up to about 125% of what i can buy the same product for in a supermarket or, better yet, a local market such as stanely's or edgewater produce. the problem i run into at the farmer's market is price. i've found only one vendor, at a downtown farmer's market, that charges reasonable prices. i buy from this vendor religiously. the rest of the vendors are, for the most part, charging 100% or more above that sold in stores for most or all items. as far as i'm concerned, they're in part preying on the cache associated with both buying locally grown and of city folks buying direct from the farmer.

i'm not interested in getting in a philosophical debate about how i should be willing to pay much more for local and/or fresher, because you won't be able to convince me that i should. what i am interested in is which farmer's markets, preferably on the far north side, have vendors selling produce at the price point i'm looking to buy at as it's a drag shlepping all that produce home on the el from downtown. fwiw, i live in edgewater, and the local farmer's market has very limited options price-wise, and i'm yet to check out a new(?) wed evening farmer's market in andersonville. also fwiw, i'm not the least bit interested in organic.

I do my summer shopping at the local farmer's market in Lincoln Square, and come away with some delish veg and even some local meat at SUPER reasonable prices. I had an especially great find last week in some mini heads of cabbage that were not only the cutest things I'd ever seen, but made a perfect meal for one this afternoon smothered with some butter & sprinkled with salt and pepper.

There isn't a HUGE variety, but once in awhile, I'll need to ask what a certain type of veggie is, which I love.

Lincoln Square Farmer's Market
4700 N. Lincoln Ave.
Chicago, IL 60625


(June-October)
City Parking Lot adjacent to Brown Line Station
Weekly: Every Tuesday
From: Jun 9, 2009 to Oct 27, 2009
7 am - 2 pm

I do most of my Farmers' Market shopping at the Evanston market - easy to get to - just a few blocks from the Davis St. El stop. There are enough vendors there that I can shop around for who has the best prices. Earlier this year, there was a $1/bunch difference for local asparagus, so I went for the cheaper - but still extremely high quality - stuff.

Pure speculation, but I think many of the farmers' market vendors monitor the pricing of their competitors and may sometimes adjust their pricing accordingly. So you may be able to get slightly better deals at the larger farmers' markets. Again, it's a pure guess, and I haven't tried comparing various markets to confirm it.

I do most of my Farmers' Market shopping at the Evanston market - easy to get to - just a few blocks from the Davis St. El stop. There are enough vendors there that I can shop around for who has the best prices. Earlier this year, there was a $1/bunch difference for local asparagus, so I went for the cheaper - but still extremely high quality - stuff.

I visit the Evanston Market quite a lot, and I'm always amazed at how little variation in prices there is. Yes, there's an occasional outlier on price, but my experience is that 90% of the vendors price standard items - strawberries, blueberries, cherries, cherry tomatoes, peaches, exactly the same.

Really? I'm with NR - I found tomatoes at the little stand closest to the Metra and parking to often be cheaper by a large margin, was going to buy corn there for $.50 an ear and found another stand selling 13 ears for $5. If you're pinching pennies, shopping around makes a difference (admittedly, sometimes the upcharge involves organics or heirlooms, but sometimes it doesn't)

On another note, I was hoping to find a farm-direct source for chicken...and found it to be significantly more per pound than our 1/4 cow - like $5/lb and up, and the chickens were a lot larger than I'd prefer as well. If anybody has a source...

foo - it might help if you gave us an idea of what kinds of veg you like to buy and what your desired price is.

I considered answering your question but I find the way that you posed it downright rude and offensive. You say that you're not willing to get into a debate about price, but you're more than willing to ask your question by accusing farmers of fleecing and preying on people. This is the equivalent of saying, "don't argue with me, because you're immoral and I said so. Now tell me where I can get cheap produce."

No thanks.

-Michael

eatchicago wrote:I considered answering your question but I find the way that you posed it downright rude and offensive. You say that you're not willing to get into a debate about price, but you're more than willing to ask your question by accusing farmers of fleecing and preying on people. This is the equivalent of saying, "don't argue with me, because you're immoral and I said so. Now tell me where I can get cheap produce."

I don't like the tone of the OP but quite often people launch into politics on the board and then say "now we don't want to discuss politics here."

Personally, I have seen nothing at the "farmers" markets in Woodstock or Crystal Lake that has interested me. Much of the produce is just not as good as some of the independent markets. If you are asking me to pay $5 for "heirloom" tyomatoes, make sure that they at least look decent and are handled well.

OTOH, some of the farm stands charge reasonable prices. Some of the ones in Walworth Co. are very reasonable on price.

It is a shame that in a city this large, there is no central market - like Detroit's Eastern Market that draws all the farmers from this area. Maybe, there is just not as much produce grown in this area as there is in SE Michigan/ S. Ontario,

This thread actually brings up a conversation I had earlier today that I'd like some feedback on. A friend was telling me that she haggles at the farmer's market, not in a mean way I'm sure, but more as in "how many peaches can I get for x $?"

I've never done this, I always treat posted prices at farmer's markets like the prices in a grocery store and don't question them. Should I? Do other people do this?

JackieK wrote:This thread actually brings up a conversation I had earlier today that I'd like some feedback on. A friend was telling me that she haggles at the farmer's market, not in a mean way I'm sure, but more as in "how many peaches can I get for x $?"

I've never done this, I always treat posted prices at farmer's markets like the prices in a grocery store and don't question them. Should I? Do other people do this?

It rarely hurts to try to haggle. Especially if you're buying in bulk, and especially if you're buying less-than-perfect stuff, you can often get great deals. If that perfect half bushel of peaches is $10, maybe that imperfect bushel of peaches can be yours for $12.50.

Really? I'm with NR - I found tomatoes at the little stand closest to the Metra and parking to often be cheaper by a large margin, was going to buy corn there for $.50 an ear and found another stand selling 13 ears for $5. If you're pinching pennies, shopping around makes a difference (admittedly, sometimes the upcharge involves organics or heirlooms, but sometimes it doesn't)

My example would be for instance last Saturday, if there were 10 stands selling blueberries, 9 were selling them for the same price, which was $4 a pint. And that's been my experience with most of the widely sold products at both the Evanston and Deerfield markets, like raspberries, strawberries, etc. As I said, there may be an outlier here and there.

I've never haggled, but I've heard it works best in the hour or so before a market closes. The farmers really don't want to have to haul back the remaining produce.

I feel like our window to get great summer produce in Chicago is so limited that I'm willing to pay significantly more for it. Most of the year, Chicago fruit consists of apples, mealy peaches (if you're lucky), berries sent from Chile. So when juicy, luscious peaches and nectarines, Michigan blueberries, good summer tomatoes, etc hit the farmer's markets, I try and get there every week. I don't think of farmer's as trying to 'fleece' me. Just like anything, small producers (who generally take extra care with their wares) have higher overhead. That being said, I find the Green City Market to be especially pricey. I did get some phenomenal tomatoes there recently, but generally, when I leave there, I look down into my wallet and find not one single bill. On the other hand, much of the produce at the Lincoln Square farmer's market is quite reasonable. And one of the stands sells organic, free-range chicken breasts for about $4 per pound. Non-organic is not a deal-breaker for me but I do like feeling like the meat I eat had a happy childhood (who knows if it's true or not).

1 spelling edit (so far)

OP here. did not mean to spark a controversy. what i was getting at is that it's my sense that the markup by many vendors on the produce they sell at the farmer's market is extremely high. it's also my sense that at least some, and perhaps a lot, of that is owing to the captive audience factor and the related factors that i mentioned about city folks feeling good about buying direct from the farmer and and about buying locally. i don't blame the vendors for selling high. if i were one, i might do the same so long as the economic market was there as it seems to be. i'm just not part of that market. to be honest, i'm not sure why the vendor i buy from is selling so low, tho i'm mighty happy about it, and i end up buying a lot. i'm sure this vendor makes up on volume what others make on price. in any event, the produce is good enough where i come back weekly.

thanks to those who've given suggestions as to alternatives to downtown.

No matter what one pays for market produce, I'd say it's almost certain farmers aren't getting rich or even making profits in most cases (not that there'd be anything wrong with that). I don't think anyone is being fleeced by these hard-working folks who struggle to make a living, and the implication saddens me.

=R=

ronnie_suburban wrote:No matter what one pays for market produce, I'd say it's almost certain farmers aren't getting rich or even making profits in most cases (not that there'd be anything wrong with that). I don't think anyone is being fleeced by these hard-working folks who struggle to make a living, and the implication saddens me.

=R=

Thanks for saying that Ronnie

foo d wrote:what i was getting at is that it's my sense that the markup by many vendors on the produce they sell at the farmer's market is extremely high.

Since you don't to get into a philosophical debate, I would like to pose a question that you can consider to yourself the next time you go shopping. No need to debate.

Have you considered the fact that your benchmark for price (supermarkets) may be incorrect and that the rest of the cost is being paid by other means? Is it possible that your benchmark is artificially low and that many farmers are actually charging the real price of food?

ronnie_suburban wrote:No matter what one pays for market produce, I'd say it's almost certain farmers aren't getting rich or even making profits in most cases (not that there'd be anything wrong with that).

While few get rich farming, most farmers are making a profit. As much as they like the lifestyle, when push comes to shove, they have bills to pay and price their product accordingly. Most of the farmers I know do quite well because they are aggressive savers, have a reasonable lifestyle, and stay out of debt.

ec -- i'm willing to stipulate that my benchmark might be somewhat low; i'm admittedly cheap tho as i cook most days, quality is an issue. my benchmark is based on the delivery of a quality product and the price i pay traditionally pay for it, and i firmly believe that part of the farmer's market markup is based on factors i've already mentioned. i've had good and bad produce from all sources -- farmer's markets, locally located produce stores and supermarkets. given that in the past and occasionally still i've paid the high prices for produce from farmer's market vendors and have not found the quality to be consistently superior to other sources and only a little less likely to be hit and miss, i generally don't buy from these vendors.

at the end of the day, all i'm looking for is a quality product priced in the general range of what i can get the same product for at another source. if it's locally grown and up to about 125 or 150% or so of the price generally charged elsewhere, i'll likely buy it over the alternatives. i'm just not willing to pay double, triple or quadruple the price for any given produce item. others might be.

Having noticed increasingly ridiculous pricing practices from some farmers this year, I share some of foo's sentiments. How in the world does Nichols Farm think they can sell green beans for $6 a pound? Even Fox and Obel sells local green beans for $1.99/ lb. Ridiculous. Nichols' tomato prices have been equally insane, and they change the price on a head of garlic by 300%, depending on what market they're selling at. Come on. I have singled out Nichols here because they are the most visible of the silly pricers, but there are others too.

Luckily, the increasing demand for local food has also brought an increase in the number of farmers looking to sell in this city. In some cases - Daley Plaza Thursdays being a good example- this has meant lower prices.

Kennyz wrote:Luckily, the increasing demand for local food has also brought an increase in the number of farmers looking to sell in this city. In some cases - Daley Plaza Thursdays being a good example- this has meant lower prices.

Overall, I've noticed significantly lower prices this year, especially on fruit.

Kennyz wrote:Having noticed increasingly ridiculous pricing practices from some farmers this year, I share some of foo's sentiments. How in the world does Nichols Farm think they can sell green beans for $6 a pound? Even Fox and Obel sells local green beans for $1.99/ lb. Ridiculous.

I'm with you. I paid $6 for a loaf of ciabatta and kicked myself afterwards. But corn is always cheap, thankfully.

Pie Lady wrote:

Kennyz wrote:Having noticed increasingly ridiculous pricing practices from some farmers this year, I share some of foo's sentiments. How in the world does Nichols Farm think they can sell green beans for $6 a pound? Even Fox and Obel sells local green beans for $1.99/ lb. Ridiculous.

I'm with you. I paid $6 for a loaf of ciabatta and kicked myself afterwards. But corn is always cheap, thankfully.

Ah, Bennisons. I still can't for the life of me figure out why they're allowed to sell their junk at the Green City Market. It's neither good nor made from locally farmed ingredients. I always head right to Fox and Obel for bread after visiting Green City for produce and dairy.

The thing that always surprises me is that, with the middleman cut out, you'd think the prices might actually be lower. Growing up, when we went to farm stands, the price was always much lower than the food that had't been shipped to a central warehouse and redistributed far and wide. When I went to a lecture on food prices and farming about a year ago, one of the things the farmer-speakers pointed out was that 80 percent of the cost of the food they bought was shipping.

Now, I do realize that farming and selling on a small scale, along with considerations such as rare produce, organic growing methods, and paying whatever fees the markets charge for a spot on the lot, adds to costs, but it does seem reasonable to expect prices to be somewhat improved by eliminating all the buyers and distributors. I do think CSAs seem to reflect these savings better than the markets, but perhaps that's because of the reduced risk.

So if anyone knows, I'd be curious to find out why, unlike the farm stands of my childhood and youth, prices at farmers markets are not, in fact, an improvement on what one finds in stores.

Cynthia wrote:So if anyone knows, I'd be curious to find out why, unlike the farm stands of my childhood and youth, prices at farmers markets are not, in fact, an improvement on what one finds in stores.

My guess is that pricing rises or decreases to what the market will bear.

=R=

I think the other thing to consider are the economies of scale: a single farmstand has the cost of their tent, tables, staff, gas, containers, trucks, bags, etc. to spread over a much smaller return. They also aren't selling their products in air-conditioning or refrigeration, so if they don't sell it, it's a loss. At least farm stands are set up at the farm itself, and don't require staffing (sometimes they're on the honor system, sometimes you have to find the farmer wherever they are in order to pay) This is not to say that pricing doesn't reflect what the market will bear.

Economies of scale, after all, are what our current food system is all about. It would be nice to find some middle ground.

ronnie_suburban wrote:I'd say it's almost certain farmers aren't getting rich or even making profits in most cases

Just curious, if they're not making a profit, why do you think they do it? To break even on your production and transportation costs, and not make a profit to go toward your other bills, doesn't sound to me like a business. I think the IRS would call it a hobby.

My guess is that pricing rises or decreases to what the market will bear.

There was an interesting article a couple of years ago in the New York Times about a huge farmer's clearing market in Benton Harbor, MI. One of the comments in the article from local farmers was that they could easily get double the price for produce if they sold at Chicago farmers' markets vs. selling locally.

Katie wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:I'd say it's almost certain farmers aren't getting rich or even making profits in most cases

Just curious, if they're not making a profit, why do you think they do it? To break even on your production and transportation costs, and not make a profit to go toward your other bills, doesn't sound to me like a business. I think the IRS would call it a hobby.

Let me be more clear. I think they don't consistently make a profit, even though that is their obvious goal. Given the variables in agriculture, one can do everything right and still not be profitable. After enough bad years, you simply cease to exist. But if you farm family-owned land, land that's been in your family for generations, I imagine it would be very tough to just walk away from it at the first instance of struggle.

As the old saying goes, in a short year when prices are high, you can't grow enough to make any money and in a long year when crops are plentiful, you can't charge enough to make any money. Farming; a very tough business.

=R=

rickster wrote:

My guess is that pricing rises or decreases to what the market will bear.

There was an interesting article a couple of years ago in the New York Times about a huge farmer's clearing market in Benton Harbor, MI. One of the comments in the article from local farmers was that they could easily get double the price for produce if they sold at Chicago farmers' markets vs. selling locally.

I wonder if this was simply a pricing/pricing comparison or if it took into account all the additional expenses of having to convey the goods to Chicago (fuel, time away from the farm, vehicle upkeep and maintenance, additional employees to man various stalls at the markets, etc.)?

To follow up on my earlier point about what the market will bear, I believe that if farmers were consistently returning home with significant unsold portions, they'd be likely to lower their prices.

=R=

I wonder if this was simply a pricing/pricing comparison or if it took into account all the additional expenses of having to convey the goods to Chicago (fuel, time away from the farm, vehicle upkeep and maintenance, additional employees to man various stalls at the markets, etc.)?

I would be almost certain that this was just a pricing comment and did not take into account the added costs and resulting net profits.

The point relative to "pricing what the market will bear" was just that Chicagoans were willing to pay double the price, so that is where the market price is set. If the farmers weren't making incremental profits by selling here, they would stay home.