Mail order BBQ

In the August 2003 issue of the Rosengarten Report, Mr. Rosengarten did a feature on Texas mail order BBQ. When I first read the article, I was skeptical. It was not until I actually went to Texas that I decided that it might be worth the $. The preferred way to get your BBQ is of course either doing it yourself or experiencing it in its natural habitat. If neither of these is possible, or if you are looking to feed a huge amount of people (and don't have access to 5 smokey mountain webers), then based on my experience the other day, mail-order is a viable option.

We had a full six pound brisket shipped overnight from Black's (Lockhart, TX)--although there were a few that Rosengarten liked better, we really loved it when we ate there, and thought it was a safe bet for our first attempt. First the bad news: it was fairly expensive- $90 for 6 lbs. But they do feed a ton of people, and split 10 to 12 ways, $90 starts looking much more reasonable.

Here is what it looks like when they get to your home:


On the left is the "flat" or the leaner part of the brisket. And then on the right is the "point" or the fatty portion. People have their preferences as to which part they think is better, but personally, I'm "fatty" fan. It looked and smelled just like a freshly BBQ'd brisket. (It was not frozen). All I did was throw the brisket in to a 250 degree oven with a Polder thermometer stuck inside of it. I set the "alarm" to go off when the internal temperature of the lean cut was 135 degrees. Total reheating time was about 1hr. At that point, I just turned the oven off and let them hang out for a few more minutes.

I did travel with them wrapped in foil, and probably didn't slice into them for about an hour after they came out of the oven. This is what they looked like inside:

Point:


Flat:


Both peices were delicious. I actually think they were better than what I ate at the restaurant. It was moist from end to end, and smoked to perfection. Not a scrap was leftover.

MMMM. Looks great for mail order. You just made me get up from the computer and get some of my leftover Superbowl brisket out of the freezer. One question, though, do they ship the point and flat separate like in your picture or did you cut it apart before putting it in the oven?

They not only ship them separately, but they also BBQ them separately at the restaurant. I think the point, because of all of the fat and connective tissue, needs a bit longer on the fire.

trixie-pea wrote:I think the point, because of all of the fat and connective tissue, needs a bit longer on the fire.

In my experience, the point is has less connective tissue and more fat than the flat. When cooked as a whole, the point is tender before the flat, but since it has more fat, remains moist until the flat finally is tender.

Bill/SFNM

Bill/SFNM wrote:

trixie-pea wrote:I think the point, because of all of the fat and connective tissue, needs a bit longer on the fire.

In my experience, the point is has less connective tissue and more fat than the flat. When cooked as a whole, the point is tender before the flat, but since it has more fat, remains moist until the flat finally is tender.

Bill/SFNM

That's been my experience as well.

trixie-pea wrote:They not only ship them separately, but they also BBQ them separately at the restaurant. I think the point, because of all of the fat and connective tissue, needs a bit longer on the fire.

absolutley..in bbq comps we normally will cook a whole packer when the flat is done (around 190 or so) the point is no where near done so we remove the point at that time and throw it back on the smoker . If we left it whole the flat would be way overdone by the time the point was done.
that point is good eatin though in the end

I'm with you, Deke! It always amazes me that people don't appreciate the point as the best part of the brisket...oh well. More for me.

It was interesting to see how split the group was between point and flat. The folks who took point on the first round inevitably came back for seconds. The flat folks, generally speaking, stuck with one helping. A correlation? Probably!

HI,

Cook's Illustrated had an article on making your own corned beef a few years ago. They advised the point, due to the fat, was where the best taste came from. Since then, when I buy corned beef, I generally buy the point which is usually priced cheaper than the flat. What a bonus: better flavor and cheaper price!

Cathy2 wrote:HI,

Cook's Illustrated had an article on making your own corned beef a few years ago. They advised the point, due to the fat, was where the best taste came from. Since then, when I buy corned beef, I generally buy the point which is usually priced cheaper than the flat. What a bonus: better flavor and cheaper price!

It's amazing to me that some Jewish delis charge extra for an "extra lean" (probably from the flat) corned beef sandwich. I'm a point man all the way. Next time I order in one of those places I'm going to ask them to give it to me extra fatty and charge me less.

There is a deli institution in Montreal called Schwartz's that serves godly pastrami, or what they call "smoked meat." When you order they'll ask you to specify fatty or lean. At times when I've been there I've heard people order a double plate of fatty with extra fat. Love that!

Schwartz's
3895 Saint-Laurent Boulevard
Montreal

Next time I order in one of those places I'm going to ask them to give it to me extra fatty and charge me less.

You won't believe this. I just returned from Max's deli in Highland Park, where I ordered the pastrami sandwich extra fatty... thinking along your line of thought. The waittress advised the pastrami is always fatty. Oh, so you cannot charge me less? She didn't find me too amusing ...

trixie-pea wrote:There is a deli institution in Montreal called Schwartz's that serves godly pastrami, or what they call "smoked meat."

Trixie-pea,

We might not agree on BBQ joints, but 100% agreement here, Schwartz's smoked meat is incredible.

Enjoy,
Gary

Gary--

I think it may be a little too soon to say that we don't agree on BBQ joints. But that we don't agree on what may be the Mecca of BBQ--perhaps.


All--

I made a statement based on assumption, a modest amount of trial and error, and lots of dining earlier in the thread--I said that I thought that the point piece of the brisket had more fat and connective tissue than the flat, and that is why it needs more time "on the fire "than the flat. Then Bill/SFNM wrote in to say that actually the point has less connective tissue and more fat--rendering it tender sooner than the tougher flat. So this would be mean that the flat actually needs more time on the fire than the point. SteveZ agreed.

So then Deke Rivers wrote in to say that when the flat is done, the point is no where near done. And that if he left the flat one for the entire time it takes to cook through the point, it would be overdone.

So here we have two distinct schools of thought on BBQ Brisket technique. Is is that folks have a different point of view on how (fat/smoke/chew levels) they like to eat their brisket?

Any thoughts?

Kristina

trixie-pea wrote:So here we have two distinct schools of thought on BBQ Brisket technique. Is is that folks have a different point of view on how (fat/smoke/chew levels) they like to eat their brisket?

Any thoughts?

Kristina

Kristina,

Because the point is so fatty, it can stand up to very long smoking sessions. "Burnt ends", which Deke describes, are the result of cooking the point long past the time when it (and the flat) has become tender so it develops a marvelous crispy bark. I like burnt ends; I also like fatty points. I especially like fatty pastrami made from points.

Bill/SFNM

trixie-pea wrote:I made a statement based on assumption, a modest amount of trial and error, and lots of dining earlier in the thread--I said that I thought that the point piece of the brisket had more fat and connective tissue than the flat, and that is why it needs more time "on the fire "than the flat. Then Bill/SFNM wrote in to say that actually the point has less connective tissue and more fat--rendering it tender sooner than the tougher flat. So this would be mean that the flat actually needs more time on the fire than the point. SteveZ agreed.

I did not say that the flat needs more time than the point. (If I did, I made a mistake while typing.) The point always needs more time than the flat, as the flat will dry out sooner than the point due to its lower fat/collegan content. Typically, when pulling the brisket from the smoker, the point is cut off and put back in the pit for a while to cook a little more. That's how they create burnt ends in Kansas City. Of course, if you just can't wait (like me most of the time) both parts get cut up and eaten faster than a hummingbird on crack.

trixie-pea wrote:Then Bill/SFNM wrote in to say
<snip>
So then Deke Rivers wrote in to say
<snip>
So here we have two distinct schools of thought on BBQ Brisket technique. Is is that folks have a different point of view on how (fat/smoke/chew levels) they like to eat their brisket?

Kristina,

I've smoked any number of full packer cut briskets, which include both point and flat, have always left them whole.

BBQ is subjective, the seeming discrepancy between Deke and Bill/SFNM may be, as you say, different outlooks as to smoke/fat/tenderness level.

No disrespect to Deke, but I know a thing or two about BBQ and Bill/SFNM is one of the few people I go to when I have BBQ questions.

Enjoy,
Gary

I am not a BBQ expert, and I have nothing constructive to add to this conversation, but I came across this today and thought it funny.

Wagner's Meat New Orlean's, LA

G Wiv wrote:

trixie-pea wrote:Then Bill/SFNM wrote in to say
<snip>
So then Deke Rivers wrote in to say
<snip>
So here we have two distinct schools of thought on BBQ Brisket technique. Is is that folks have a different point of view on how (fat/smoke/chew levels) they like to eat their brisket?

Kristina,

I've smoked any number of full packer cut briskets, which include both point and flat, have always left them whole.

BBQ is subjective, the seeming discrepancy between Deke and Bill/SFNM may be, as you say, different outlooks as to smoke/fat/tenderness level.

No disrespect to Deke, but I know a thing or two about BBQ and Bill/SFNM is one of the few people I go to when I have BBQ questions.

Enjoy,
Gary

Well Gary
I do know a thing or two about BBQ . I have been competing on the BBQ circuit for a couple years now and have been cookign BBQ for many years as as well . Now i understand if im not as well known on this forum as others but that doesnt lessen my knowledge of bbq by any means.
You say you dont mean any disrespect but the disrespectful insinuation was there. And I know plenty of top bbq cooks who separate the flat from the point after the flat is done. I think the results are better
This technique was good enough to bag myself and my BBQ team 1st place brisket in the 2004 KCBS BBQ Competition in Peoria this past summer .

Bill/SFNM wrote:

trixie-pea wrote:So here we have two distinct schools of thought on BBQ Brisket technique. Is is that folks have a different point of view on how (fat/smoke/chew levels) they like to eat their brisket?

Any thoughts?

Kristina

Kristina,

Because the point is so fatty, it can stand up to very long smoking sessions. "Burnt ends", which Deke describes, are the result of cooking the point long past the time when it (and the flat) has become tender so it develops a marvelous crispy bark. I like burnt ends; I also like fatty points. I especially like fatty pastrami made from points.

Bill/SFNM

Actully Bill..what i was getting at was that most packers ive cooked the flat is done long before the point whether im aiming for burnt ends or not

deke rivers wrote:And I know plenty of top bbq cooks who separate the flat from the point after the flat is done.

I think there is some confusuion about what is being debated here. Separating the point and flat after smoking is a common technique. In fact, the legendary Danny Gaulden of Carlsbad does this everyday. The only thing I was saying is when smoking a packer cut, the point gets tender (as measured by a twisting fork) before the flat. And that seperated from the flat or not, the point can stand up to longer smoking than the flat do to it's high fat content.

Bill/SFNM

Bill/SFNM wrote:

deke rivers wrote:And I know plenty of top bbq cooks who separate the flat from the point after the flat is done.

I think there is some confusuion about what is being debated here. Separating the point and flat after smoking is a common technique. In fact, the legendary Danny Gaulden of Carlsbad does this everyday. The only thing I was saying is when smoking a packer cut, the point gets tender (as measured by a twisting fork) before the flat. And that seperated from the flat or not, the point can stand up to longer smoking than the flat do to it's high fat content.

Bill/SFNM

No debate at all Bill..i agree..its pretty much dependent on the thicknessof the flat on how close in doneness in a specific time the two parts of the packer get..I have had packers with thin flats where the flat is done way earlier while the ones with thicker flats (or thinner points for that matter) where flat and point hit target right about the same time.
My issue was with Gary questioning my credibility to add comments in a BBQ thread

deke rivers wrote:Actully Bill..what i was getting at was that every packer ive cooked the flat is done long before th e point whether im aiming for burnt ends or not

Deke: How are you defining "done"? I use a long pointy fork and when I can twist it without resistance, it is "done". In every packer brisket I've ever smoked, the point this reached this stage before the flat. However, I wait until the I can twist the fork in the flat before the entire brisket is "done". Works for me.

Bill/SFNM

Bill/SFNM wrote:

deke rivers wrote:Actully Bill..what i was getting at was that every packer ive cooked the flat is done long before th e point whether im aiming for burnt ends or not

Deke: How are you defining "done"? I use a long pointy fork and when I can twist it without resistance, it is "done". In every packer brisket I've ever smoked, the point this reached this stage before the flat. However, I wait until the I can twist the fork in the flat before the entire brisket is "done". Works for me.

Bill/SFNM

i try to hit a target temp of 190 ..i uses a Thermapen to measure meat temp .When it hits that temp i will still use a fork to make sure. Its a combination of feel as well as actual meat temp. Again i think its all dependent on the packer itself and the thickness of the flat in comparison to the point. Its rare that i have ever had a point done before the flat. But hey Im buying packers in Chicago...could be a big difference between them and what you get
in New Mexico

Hey Deke, where are you buying your packers? I have my source, but it's always good to have a backup.

deke rivers wrote:Well Gary
I do know a thing or two about BBQ . I have been competing on the BBQ circuit for a couple years now and have been cookign BBQ for many years as as well . Now i understand if im not as well known on this forum as others but that doesnt lessen my knowledge of bbq by any means.
You say you dont mean any disrespect but the disrespectful insinuation was there. And I know plenty of top bbq cooks who separate the flat from the point after the flat is done. I think the results are better
This technique was good enough to bag myself and my BBQ team 1st place brisket in the 2004 KCBS BBQ Competition in Peoria this past summer .

Deke,

I'm sorry you took my comment personally, it was not meant so. Bill is not well known on LTHForum for BBQ, he is well know to me. I have been interacting with Bill/SFNM for 7-8 years and he has proven to be a knowledgeable, common sense person who is, not only an excellent all around cook, but BBQ knowledgeable.

Bill's talent in no way diminishes yours, he is simply a known, once again to me, not LTHForum at large, quantity.

Congratulations on your many BBQ related accomplishments, I look forward to meeting you, eating your, I'm sure quite delicious, BBQ and possibly even cooking with you.

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote:

deke rivers wrote:Well Gary
I do know a thing or two about BBQ . I have been competing on the BBQ circuit for a couple years now and have been cookign BBQ for many years as as well . Now i understand if im not as well known on this forum as others but that doesnt lessen my knowledge of bbq by any means.
You say you dont mean any disrespect but the disrespectful insinuation was there. And I know plenty of top bbq cooks who separate the flat from the point after the flat is done. I think the results are better
This technique was good enough to bag myself and my BBQ team 1st place brisket in the 2004 KCBS BBQ Competition in Peoria this past summer .

Deke,

I'm sorry you took my comment personally, it was not meant so. Bill is not well known on LTHForum for BBQ, he is well know to me. I have been interacting with Bill/SFNM for 7-8 years and he has proven to be a knowledgeable, common sense person who is, not only an excellent all around cook, but BBQ knowledgeable.

Bill's talent in no way diminishes yours, he is simply a known, once again to me, not LTHForum at large, quantity.

Congratulations on your many BBQ related accomplishments, I look forward to meeting you, eating your, I'm sure quite delicious, BBQ and possibly even cooking with you.

Enjoy,
Gary

Gary - didnt mean to get thin skin on ya nor do I like to go around tooting my own horn . Guess I took your comment the wrong way. In fact i do agree with Bills statement to a point as i mentioned..
anyway no hard feelings...so do you get involved in any of the Chicago area BBQ comps at all?

stevez wrote:Hey Deke, where are you buying your packers? I have my source, but it's always good to have a backup.

Paulina Market for competitions (they are kind of a sponser) I also get them through my brother in laws restaurant from time to time

Interesting article in Tues. Trib.. Cooper's Pit Q in Llano Texas was so popular that mail order now makes up a quarter of their business. Irony as I see it is that all mail order Q is made in a seperate building housing High Tech indoor smokers, not the old outdoor pits that make their Q so good.