Italian-American Sunday Gravy

I'm looking for the definitive recipe for "red gravy" -- you know, the kind of meat-packed red sauce that Tony Soporano likes to sit down to on Sunday afternoon.

Any suggestions of what goes in (meatballs, sausage, chuck roast or pork shoulder) and what stays out? What kind of pasta to serve with it? etc, etc?

anybody want to share mama's secret recipe?

thanks

Doug

Hi DougMose,

Here is a recipe I use time and time again - using bulk italian sausage instead of links and a good red wine in place of the water called for in the recipe. Additionally, I tend to make homemade meatballs when I use this recipe and after browning the meatballs, I'll have it simmered in the sauce for a while to add a bit of meaty flavor. I've also replaced the bulk italian sausage with ground beef too. The recipe allows for your own creativity so experiment!

Hope this helps in your quest for sunday gravy!

http://www.recipezaar.com/52630

The mob reference in the original post above is completely gratuitous and for some quite offensive. I find it disappointing that someone who has previously expressed interest in, for example, Italian recipes for boar and to whom I offered a long, friendly and well thought response (link) finds the propagation of negative stereotypes of Italian Americans such an unproblematic matter.

Antonius

When the cookbook was being promoted about the series, the Sunday Gravy recipe was in the newspapers.

Regards,

DougMose wrote:I'm looking for the definitive recipe for "red gravy" -- you know, the kind of meat-packed red sauce that Tony Soporano likes to sit down to on Sunday afternoon.

Any suggestions of what goes in (meatballs, sausage, chuck roast or pork shoulder) and what stays out? What kind of pasta to serve with it? etc, etc?

anybody want to share mama's secret recipe?

thanks

Doug

Amazon Books Link

http://www.niaf.org/image_identity/stereotyping.asp

[Moderator edit to shorten Amazon link]

The point about Italian stereotyping and the pain it can cause has, I hope, been clearly made, and even if such stereotyping was not intended to cause offense, it did.

Let's talk red sauce, shall we...?

David "Come visit me when I become an Italian citizen and move to Italy" Hammond

David Hammond wrote:Let's talk red sauce, shall we...?

OK, I'll go. My favorite meat and tomatoes sauce (that can be made in less than two hours) is Mark Bittman's "Pasta with meaty bones" from his Minimalist Cooks at Home cookbook. Basically, brown about a pound of meat on the bone in some olive oil, toss in a few cloves of chopped garlic and some crushed red peppers, dump in a chopped big can of roma tomatoes with liquid (not puree, preferably), and let it simmer, lid partially on, for an hour or so. Then take out the bones, chop up any meat and throw it back into the pot with any marrow you can muster. Toss it all with a chunky dried pasta. I like ziti. For the meat: Bittman recommends veal shank, but I am partial to short ribs. (Plus, they're easy to get at Olympic Meats, right near my office.) Oh yes, and garnish with freshly chopped flat-leaf parsley and no cheese. Maybe not so gravy, but good nonetheless.

I'd have to say that 2 hour Sunday gravy is an oxymoron.

I happen to have made, just last night, the sugo that I woke up smelling every Sunday growing up. I'm way past Sunday gravy at this point in my life, but when I feel like having my mom's and my aunts' Casertana presence, I have to whip up a pot.* Also, for some reason I feel the need for my kids to smell the same thing.

Really, the only necessary elements are good tomatoes, good olive oil, a good pot and a low flame. I happened to have a couple of those huge Costco cans of San Marzanos and some swell Costco short ribs getting old in the freezer. Broiled the beef in the oven from frozen for starters, an easy way to get some color while quickly defrosting. Oil, garlic, tomatoes (pureed in the pot with stick blender), meat, this and that, and 4 hours later on the lowest flame available on a home stove, supposedly(Thermador), it was into the fridge to rest for a day or two. Probably go with one of the super-large, rustic tube shapes (Lecca brand?) and some Romano from Bari.







*She's still with us, just in Florida. I suppose I could just call, but I'm going for time travel, not reality.

JeffB wrote:I'd have to say that 2 hour Sunday gravy is an oxymoron.

Well, I agree. What I like so much about the Bittman recipe is that it can reasonably be done on a weeknight with fantastic lunch leftovers the next day. But, by all means, let it go a few more hours, it'll only get better.

I, for one, didn't take offense at the Soprano reference and I'm half Italian. Many Americans will associate Italian food with that series and probably will do so from now on. That's just how it is.

In our family, it was always called "gravy"--never sauce--and it was begun on Saturday afternoon and finished Sunday morning for afternoon dinner. My father always started his with pork neckbones, and lots of them. Later, he might include meatballs or bracciole, but usually we would have roast beef or roast chicken with the pasta, so usually that was omitted.

You could include sausage, but I can't remember him ever doing that (because of the fennel flavoring the gravy, probably). Sometimes he would brown a piece of beef stewing meet and throw it in, or even a chicken (although that too was very rare).

What I do recall lovingly were the big artichokes that he would prepare by stuffing them with the raw meatball mixture and roasting them in the oven for about an hour. He would then place them into the gravy where they would finish cooking and soften up a bit, but not to the point of falling apart. Eating them later with the meatball meat and their leaves soaked in the tomato gravy was just delicious! I'm not sure, but I think this might be a Napolitano thing. Anyone else eat them this way?

I add lots of garlic to mine. Also, olive oil, red wine, lots of basil, a little oregano, bay leaf, parmesan cheese, salt, pepper, tomato paste and whole canned Roma tomatoes. Sometimes I'll add a bit of margoram or rosemary, depending on my mood. Everything is taste and see.

BTW, when I was a little kid, my father always allowed me to taste the gravy to see what it needed, or taste the pasta to see if it was al dente yet. This did a lot to encourage a lifelong interest in cooking in me, and I have tried to do the same with my kids when they were young. It's been working so far!

Edited to include olive oil & bracciole, which I had forgotten.

Artemesia, when one finds something inoffensive, but others in the same shoes find it offensive (within reason, as here), then it is offensive, no? One's immunity to disease doesn't make the disease any less insalubrious to others.

Unless, of course, there is some intrinsic value being added by the otherwise (objectively within reason) offensive communication, in which case the tie goes to the speaker instead of the offended, I agree. But I stand to be surprised by the sage who can explain the value of such stereotypes.

Now, regarding your gravy recipe, did the family always use bay, oregano and (sometimes) rosemary/marjoram? Not that those items are beyond the Neopolitan spice rack, but they seem "exotic" based on my own humble gravy history.

No, I'm sorry, but the philosopher in me is not going to let this one ride. It is quite simply NOT the case that if Smith says "X" and Jones says "I'm offended by 'x'" that "X" is offensive.

And that seems to be the criterion that's being wheeled into place here. It's not a socially useful criterion.

Smith: "Today is Friday."

Jones: "I find that offensive."

It's not Jones' call for the social group, simple as that. There are socially constructed norms, which many/most of us would agree too, and those should/must set the domain, NOT whether or not some particular individual agrees with the norms or not.

Any given speech act requires certain performative aspects on the part of both the speaker and the hearer. Speaker intention is most certainly one of those aspects.

Moreover, there are certain linguistic elements which must be present, aspects involving use, mention, reference and connotation.

When I look carefully at the original text, I see nothing more than an objective use (not mention) of a well-known cultural figure, behaving in a well-know way as portrayed. That's what I see in the speaking-act.

Beyond that, I suspect that much else is brought to the situation from some other occasion.

That's my thought, quickly enough.

Geo

Geo wrote:It is quite simply NOT the case that if Smith says "X" and Jones says "I'm offended by 'x'" that "X" is offensive.

Perhaps, but here we know Jones ("Anjonius"), and we like him, and we would prefer folks not offend him with casual references that are not necessarily germane to the topic being addressed, even if he is especially sensitive in a way many others are not. Yes, "Sopranos" is quick speak for "Italian Americans from New Jersey," at least for those who watch the show (I do not), but does it really take that much effort to just type what you mean? And note that this comes from a personal history in which I HAVE had professional contact with people I know without question were affiliated with and/or married to organized crime figures. I often am reminded by these types of discussions of an interview I once took of a "mob wife" (and yes, she WAS that, though reluctantly so) and hearing her talk about how anxious she was attending a party in an upstate New York mansion attended by "a lot of Italians" (wink, wink; nudge, nudge). So it's a complicated thing, and it CAN be a real thing -- but the Sopranos are NOT real; I have had some tangential experience with people who WERE really part of that world; and my lightlly informed opinion is that everyone really ought to leave this topic alone. Let's lay off the unnecessary allusions that could offend people who, as Cathy2 has often pointed out, you may end up seated next to at dinner!

(That said ... I'm glad I stopped my study of philosophy when I got that M.A. back in 1991. Who knows what would've become of me if I'd actually earned that Ph.D. I thought I wanted so much in 1989...)

Geez... I mentioned that I didn't take offense because I didn't see anything offensive by merely mentioning the HBO series in the same breath as spaghetti gravy. I would never want to offend anybody about this, however, and I suspected DougMose didn't intend to either. But let's get back to the subject on hand: gravy.

Yes, my father always added bay leaf and oregano. I'm sure of that. And I'm pretty sure he added the rosemary and margoram too, but that's a little fuzzier in my memory now (he died in 1966). I know he used those herbs extensively with roasting meats. He was quite an accomplished chef in his own right, and famous among family and friends for his many dishes.

As an adult, I have learned to play down the oregano and up the basil with my basic gravy because I prefer that flavor blend. But when I was a child and would eat at a (Italian) friend's house, their mother's gravy would taste very foreign to my palate. Every cook has their own interpretation. "Cada cabeza un mundo."

JiLS says:
"(That said ... I'm glad I stopped my study of philosophy when I got that M.A. back in 1991. Who knows what would've become of me if I'd actually earned that Ph.D. I thought I wanted so much in 1989...)"

See? See? Be careful what you wish for! Let me serve as a object lesson to you, laddie: don't follow my path into the dissolute (?sp?) life.

That having been said, it's a dirty job, but I'd rather be doing it meself, thanks. After all, SOMEbody has to do it....

Now my grandpa Accola didn't cook, he barbared. But his wife, grandma Boijeck, or Bozak, or Bojack--depending on which uncle was doing the spelling--used to make a simple red gravy for us, starting Saturday afternoon at confession, and cooking through mass on Sunday. Some garlic, some chopped onions, bit of carrot and celery, lots of canned tomatoes and some tomato puree. No meat. Simmer, simmer, simmer.
And then it *could* go over just about anything on Sunday afternoon.

Many's the time I've enjoyed the memory of going to the meat market one time after mass at St. Joe's, I must have been in the 3rd grade, and buying a whole chicken (head + feet included) for 33¢ a pound. (What in the world, oh economist, would that be in today's coin o' the realm??) Grandma singed that bird, chopped it up, simmered the guts in the red sauce, and then put the browned (a bit) chicken into the sauce.

And that's the way we ate that chicken.

Sure tasted better than what grandma O'Brien used to cook of a Sunday afternoon after mass....

Geo

Oooh, Geo--you brought back more memories! Chicken feet. Making the gravy with nothing but chicken feet--and lots and lots of them, at that. The part of the chicken that is right below the drumstick, and contains the actual foot. The skin looked like yellow plastic. Once cooked, we ate them like popcorn. We liked to pull on the main tendon which would then cause the foot to flex up and down, giving the appearance that there was still life in them, and great for freaking out younger siblings and/or cousins. Definitely not the sort of thing I would take to school with me on Monday and show my "American" classmates!

One other issue: onions, carrots or sugar in gravy. Never. Never, ever. My father was very set on this. People would sometimes add these in an attempt to counteract the acidity of the tomatoes, but cooking the sauce for 2 days basically accomplished the same thing. Or so I was told.

Artemesia, Geo, there is obviously no one way to make the Sunday gravy, which was my basic point about the sauce. Other than tomatoes garlic, oil and time. Onions and carrots seem to show a little influence from the north. Sugar, well, sugar was always something that was off limits. Adding sugar was some sort of concession that the tomatoes were no good or the sauce didn't cook long enough (same for a dash of sauce-killing baking soda).

Regarding the speech issues, this statement:

"No, I'm sorry, but the philosopher in me is not going to let this one ride. It is quite simply NOT the case that if Smith says "X" and Jones says "I'm offended by 'x'" that "X" is offensive.

And that seems to be the criterion that's being wheeled into place here. It's not a socially useful criterion."

ignores entirely the second paragraph in my short post, where I suggested speech that is reasonably offensive to others should not only be tolerated but protected when it has some intrinsic value. I just don't see the value in the stereotype. I'm still open to being convinced otherwise. Also, the original comment was not made in a vacuum, it was made in a forum where there is, indeed, lots of history.

I just don't see the value in the stereotype. I'm still open to being convinced otherwise. Also, the original comment was not made in a vacuum, it was made in a forum where there is, indeed, lots of history.

At the same time, Jeff, we have a lot of new folks here in the last few weeks and it'd be nice to keep some of them; and we can't assume that they can, or should, know anything of the history here. I think it's clear that DougMose did not intend anything derogatory by the admittedly common (however regrettably so) cultural reference; and as an old saying among my people goes, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." Let's assume the best of our fellow posters (until proven otherwise, and there is the occasional case of that here-- but not much).

As for sugar in pasta sauce (I can't call it gravy, that's not a term I ever heard growing up and one that means something quite different to me), I'm pretty sure I can taste instantly if a sauce has been caramelized slowly or had a bunch of sugar dumped in, and for me it's the difference between good and bad as much as anything. I suppose a little hint of brown sugar is not egregious, but some restaurants seem to sweeten it way too much, obviously artificially, and I just don't see a need for spaghetti candy.

Mike, you have a point.

When this topic went around the first 20 times, I must admit I thought it might be a little overblown. However, I'm now convinced that the US public association between professional murderers and "Italian American" cooking is, unfortunately, strong enough that I (like the other Don Tony, with the "Don" having Oxbridge connotations) now have a hard time letting go. It's precisely the fact that every new query about red sauce seems to mention the Sopranos that has me convinced. (And, to be fair, the Sunday sauce on that show is a focal point in some ways and it looks very good. So I won't deny that the reference conveys some information.)

No offense intended.

I just want to make one thing ABSOLUTELY CLEAR: my grandmother did NOT put sugar in her sauce. I don't know where that reference came from, but it 'tweren't me...

Now, on another point, someone mentioned that carrots and onions sounded "northern". Bingo: we Accolas originally emigrated from Davos. There's still about a million cousins there.

Who knows *what* sort of tomfoolery occurred (? occurs?) up there, messing up the sacred cuisine.

My mother got some recipes from her mother that I'm still trying to track down, and one of these days I'm going to ask the group for help (most esp. on what she called "swiss steak", but from now, looking back, I percieve it more as a post roast of a certain kind. More anon.)

One thing I've found very nice, not to mention comforting, is the N.Y.Times *Heritage* cookbook. I've found some things therein that brought back memories.

Geo
PS. BTW, we didn't call it "gravy", but rather "sauce"; I didn't hear it called "red gravy" until I moved from CA to KC, where the usual name was the latter. Anyone know the geography of that dialect item?

PPS. Jeez, google "red gravy" and note the surprizing entries that pop up.

PPPS. And I'll be jiggered: check out

http://www.recipecottage.com/pasta-sauc ... gravy.html

my grandma's made the Big Time!

Artemesia wrote:

"Oooh, Geo--you brought back more memories! Chicken feet. Making the gravy with nothing but chicken feet--and lots and lots of them, at that."

Here is a link to a recipe for a sauce using chicken feet and giblets. Also, one for the lasagna made with this sauce. It's something I've been eager to make for some time. (IIRC the article is by Eugenia Bone --and a very nice one--about the cuisine of her father's family from Le Marche.)

http://www.saveur.com/article.jsp?ID=6488&typeID=120
and
http://www.saveur.com/article.jsp?ID=6489&typeID=120

The problem for me was always finding the chicken feet, but since I began to shop at Marketplace on Oakton I have no excuse. (As always, call ahead to be sure about the chicken feet.)

Thanks, Josephine! You brought back even more memories that I evidently tried to bury: the chicken heads. Those were thrown into the gravy as well. In fact, my uncle Joe used to say that the only part of the chicken they didn't eat was the cackle! I remember loving to eat the heads (and brains), but now my stomach just cletches up and I get queasy even thinking of it. I've lost a lot of my adventurous spirit, I guess.

Does anyone remember Italian Wedding Giblets? This dish was served as an appetizer at all the Italian weddings I ever went to. It's a mixture of hearts & gizzards cooked until tender in a tomato sauce, and served with fresh Italian bread. Really delicious. Anyone interested trying it, send me an email. I still have my old San Rocco parish cookbook with the recipe.

DougMose wrote:I'm looking for the definitive recipe for "red gravy"

You'll hunt for an Auk egg more fruitfully than a definitive recipe for southern Italian ragu.

As the great Neapolitan playwright and actor Eduardo de Filippo wrote in a poem dedicated to red sauce, 'O Rraù, it's just meat with tomato (Chesta è carne c' 'a pummarola.). Although there are many recipes, which vary from area to area and family to family, there are definitive techniques to making a great red sauce, as well as an "architecture" for ragu. The most important techniques are proper caramelization of the meat (slow and brown, not fast and black) and slow reduction of the sauce (long cooking time (you simmer a pipiare: like the chirping of little birds); though you might also include intermediate reductions of vegetables and wine/stock/water before adding the tomato). The architecture is: Fat (pork and olive oil), meat (pork and "pick your favorite"), aromatics (onion, garlic, carrot, celery, herbs), and tomato (either paste (concentrato mixed with water) or both paste and whole tomatoes).

A Neapolitan rraù looks something like this:

2 Tbs olive oil
1 lb pork shoulder, but see below
1 lb beef chuck
2 oz pancetta diced
2 oz fat from prosciutto diced
1 medium onion diced
1 C red wine
1/2 tube of imported tomato paste
32 oz San Marzano tomatoes, preferably pomodori passati
basil, or herbs you like. I've come to prefer none.

Heat olive oil in large heavy pot; add meat and brown; add onion and cook until they soften; add wine, deglaze, and reduce; add tomato paste and cook until it begins to brown; add tomatoes and cook 3-4 hours; add water if needed to maintain the thickness you want, adding herbs during the last hour. Serve with a very good pasta, lightly sauced, and topped with pecorino romano or parmigiano reggiano.

The meat is variable, but should be at least half pork. Cuts are optional; indeed, you could start with a large blade-in beef chuck or pork shoulder, and after enough braising, serve it as a secondo. Sausage or braciole are fine, though meatballs in the sauce are more americano. The fat is important, using both belly (pancetta) and leg fat (prosciutto) adds to the flavor. 4 oz of blanched pig skin gives nice depth, too.

If you want to approximate a ragu from Avellino, the home of your favorite fictional TV gangster, lamb can be substituted for beef, as well as adding garlic, carrot, and celery as part of the soffritto/mirepoix.

Andogne, nun scorda': "E nce ne costa lacreme st'America a nuie napulitane..." Libero Bovio

Hey, Hammond (when do we start calling you "Davide Ammondino"??), I'll come visit you after you get Italian citizenship and move to Italy, but not until you have a phone installed and get a drivers license there. Yeah, when we're invecchiati, or worse, morti.

Choey,

That post was so enjoyable to read; the only thing missing was a recommendation for music to play while cooking (Frank?). I will definitely use your method next time.

This is what I do for meat for my ragu: before smoking ribs, I usually trim off the little ribs on the end and the flap of meat on the membrane side, tossing the trimmings into ziploc bag in the freezer. After I have a full bag, I use them for my sauce much like you describe. However, after browning the pork trimmings, I allow them to cool and then separate the meat from the bones reserving the little morsels of meat for the sauce.

Bill/SFNM

Thanks to everybody who shared their thoughts about what makes a definative red sauce.

But I really wanted to write and offer an apology to everyone who I offended by singling out Tony Soprano as an example of the archtypical "red gravy" eater.

In hindsight, it's clear to me what a blunder I made. I should have picked a different figure in popular culture to illustrate the kind of sauce I was looking for -- saying something like "the kind of red sauce Marie Barone (Ray's mother on "Everybody Loves Raymond") makes -- someone with Italian-American bona fides, but without any unfair, negative stereotypical mob associations.

I'm sorry for my mistake and the offense I gave.

And thanks again to everybody who posted their thoughts.

Doug

DougMose wrote:Thanks to everybody who shared their thoughts about what makes a definative red sauce.

But I really wanted to write and offer an apology to everyone who I offended by singling out Tony Soprano as an example of the archtypical "red gravy" eater.

In hindsight, it's clear to me what a blunder I made. I should have picked a different figure in popular culture to illustrate the kind of sauce I was looking for -- saying something like "the kind of red sauce Marie Barone (Ray's mother on "Everybody Loves Raymond") makes -- someone with Italian-American bona fides, but without any unfair, negative stereotypical mob associations.

I'm sorry for my mistake and the offense I gave.

And thanks again to everybody who posted their thoughts.

Doug

Doug,

Many thanks. I did not assume any ill intent on your part but rather thought the invocation of the Sopranos careless and disappointing. One must recognise fully that the inappropriate invocation of mob images in connexion with all manner of discussions of Italian-Americans and Italian-American culture is extremely widespread in this country. Given the prevalent and constant pairing of the two in, for example, film and television, the association has unfortunately become a commonplace (and indeed, the instances on this board -- mostly without malicious intent -- have been many indeed). But because something happens often, it does not follow that it is okay or should be left uncorrected.

In my estimation, as has happened with the casual and public use of other such unfair ethnic streotypes, people need to be made aware of the issue, since so much media discourse feeds us the prejudicial pairing as if there were no problem at all. The bottomline is that ethnic sterotypes are always, at best, problematic and negative ones are bad in that they are offensive to many individuals; they therefore should have no place in this sort of forum in my view and I would hope all here can agree with that whole-heartedly.

Anyway, many thanks again for responding. I always find your posts and queries interesting and hope you'll post more often in the future.

Saluti amichevoli... e buon appetito,
Antonius

Hey, yo. Badda Bing, Badda BOOM.

Anyone have a good recipe for Sunday Gravy. You know, like they made on the Sopranos? Or Godfather?

“Hey, come over here kid, learn something. You never know, you might have to cook for 20 guys someday. You see, you start out with a little bit of oil. Then you fry some garlic. Then you throw in some tomatoes, tomato paste, you fry it; you make sure it doesn’t stick. You get it to a boil; you shove in all your sausage and your meatballs, eh? Add a little bit a wine… and a little bit a sugar… and that’s my trick.” ~Clemenza


Fuggedaboutit

Well, I'll post a Sunday Sauce recipe for this Zombie Thread.

Not sure if anyone is familiar with Mickey Melchiando (aka Dean Ween) but years ago he posted this and I (and others) thought it was pretty damn good.

http://www.chocodog.com/chocodog/sauce2.htm

Here's one reposted recently on Serious Eats

Italian American Red Sauce

FYI,
Dave

Since this is shopping and cooking, and since I didn't want to start a new thread, I will throw this out here.

Where in Chicago can one buy a good pint (or quart) of good gravy? I'm guessing some of the older delis or sandwich shops might sell it, but I don't really know where to start. Anyone got a spot?