Tribune's "Best" Fried Chicken a greasy mess

Hi,

I've never made fried chicken in my life, so when the fool-proof recipe for the world's best fried clucker ran in last wednesday's Tribune, I was determined to follow it to the T and see if it was indeed be as succulent as they predicted.

I brined the bird in a sea salt bath. I marinated each piece in a buttermilk wash with just a dash of hotsauce, I floured and seasoned carefully and let the pieces rest in peace for an hour before frying. I even used a bit of bacon grease to "add delicious flavor" to the canola oil.

Well, one hour of hot, steamy, grease-spattered frying later, I bit into a piece of gummy, overly salted. yucky fried chicken. I was really upset. I busted my ass on that bird! Where did I go wrong?

At what temperature did you fry the Birds and in what vessel did you fry them?

funghi,

Perfect southern style fried chicken is almost as close as cooking gets an art form. You really didn't expect to reach nirvana on your maiden voyage, did you?

Pinchas Zuckerman and Itzhac Perlman still practice five hours a day. Get yourself a cast iron skillet and keep frying.

When you let the chicken rest, did you make sure that the pieces were thoroughly coated with the breading and dried? Gummy fried chicken is usually the result of the breading on the chicken not being dry enough when you place the chicken in the oil. You could solve this by just making sure that the pieces are thoroughly covered with breading before letting them rest and not the least bit moist on the outside.

If you did not have the oil hot enough, you could have also ended up with gummy chicken, but you probably would have also noticed that the breading came off while cooking.

In terms of the over-salting, did you rinse the chicken off before putting it into the buttermilk? If not, it could be that much of the salt from the brine remained on the chicken. Assuming that you then added salt to the breading, you would have ended up with an overly salty chicken.

How do I know these things? Trial and error -- it might seem easy but it takes a little practice. But I bet your next batch is excellent.

Evil Ronnie wrote:funghi,

Perfect southern style fried chicken is almost as close as cooking gets an art form. You really didn't expect to reach nirvana on your maiden voyage, did you?

Amen. My Hungarian ex-girlfriend couldn't cook most things, but, for some reason, had a natural talent for fried chicken. There were no frills or special tricks. Just dredge in flour, then beaten egg, then a coating of lightly salted bread crumbs. She would fry it in an inch of oil. No thermometers, no special tools. She was just very good at reading the oil and adjusting the stove accordingly. I've watched her many times (as I used to be the one doing all the cooking), but I never got the knack for it. At least not consistently. Half the time I would either burn the breadcrumbs or undercook the chicken. She everything single time got it exactly right, with a crispy exterior, and luscious, juicy chicken goodness inside. Some people just got the knack. For others, it takes lots and lots of practice and failed experiments. Perhaps I should've kept her.

Hi,

I used a calphalon skillet. Sadly, I don't have a cast iron fry pan.

I was also eyeballing the oil with the old water drop on the surface. I don't have a thermometer for oil.

What is the deal with the brine? Is overnight too long? the bird was salty as all get out.

Thanks for your input!

funghi wrote:I used a calphalon skillet. Sadly, I don't have a cast iron fry pan.

I was also eyeballing the oil with the old water drop on the surface. I don't have a thermometer for oil.

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't have a cast iron skillet, you aren't going to be eating fried chicken any time soon.

Also, unless you have a lot of experience frying on your stove with your pans, you'll definitely want a thermometer. Oil temperature can make or break a fried dish.

Best,
Michael

funghi wrote:Hi,

I used a calphalon skillet. Sadly, I don't have a cast iron fry pan.

I was also eyeballing the oil with the old water drop on the surface. I don't have a thermometer for oil.

What is the deal with the brine? Is overnight too long? the bird was salty as all get out.

Thanks for your input!

I typically brine my chicken in salt water for close to 24 hours . . . then rinse. If you don't rinse, you might have too much salt left on the chicken. I then soak the chicken in buttermilk and a little hot sauce for at least 3 hours.

The cast iron pan is great because of its ability to retain heat and provide for even temperature (as well as a crispier skin). If you deep fry the chicken or if you don't use a cast iron pan, it will be harder to maintain the proper temperature of the oil and you might end up with a greasier and less crispy bird.

BR wrote:

funghi wrote:Hi,

I used a calphalon skillet. Sadly, I don't have a cast iron fry pan.

I was also eyeballing the oil with the old water drop on the surface. I don't have a thermometer for oil.

What is the deal with the brine? Is overnight too long? the bird was salty as all get out.

Thanks for your input!

I typically brine my chicken in salt water for close to 24 hours . . . then rinse. If you don't rinse, you might have too much salt left on the chicken. I then soak the chicken in buttermilk and a little hot sauce for at least 3 hours.

The cast iron pan is great because of its ability to retain heat and provide for even temperature (as well as a crispier skin). If you deep fry the chicken or if you don't use a cast iron pan, it will be harder to maintain the proper temperature of the oil and you might end up with a greasier and less crispy bird.

I roasted a bird not too long ago that I brined for only an hour and it was plenty salty. It was a 3 1/2 lb. bird though so that might be why.

bnowell724 wrote:I roasted a bird not too long ago that I brined for only an hour and it was plenty salty. It was a 3 1/2 lb. bird though so that might be why.

Salt concentration of the solution also affects brining time.

Bill/SFNM

funghi wrote:What is the deal with the brine? Is overnight too long? the bird was salty as all get out.

Funghi,

As Bill/SFNM points out it's the concentration of the salt, not the amount of time.

The Tribune recipe calls for 1-cup of salt to 1-quart of water for 3-4 hours using chicken pieces, which will take on solution a little faster than whole chicken. This, in my opinion, is too long for the prescribed salt/water ratio and partly the cause of the salty flavor in your chicken. If you left the chicken in the brine overnight, as you state, that would further amplify salt content in the chicken flesh.

The Tribune recipe also has added salt in the crust flour and bacon drippings.

I'm a fan of brining, for 1-chicken cut into 8-pieces I suggest using a 1-gallon zip lock, adding 1/3-cup salt, a little warm water to dissolve, then the chicken, fill will cold water. Refrigerate for 3-4 hours, the chicken will not be overly salty. Put the Ziploc in a bowl just in case it leaks.

My fried chicken method is brine with as I described above, but I add 1/3-cup brown sugar and go half and half buttermilk/water in the brine. I add dry rub to both the brine liquid and dredging flour. Rinse after it comes out of the brine, flour, pan fry uncovered in a cast iron skillet.

It just occurred to me that I've posted my fried chicken method w/pictures.

Good luck and, like Evil says, practice, practice, practice. Oh, and get a Lodge cast iron skillet for $15.

One more thing, use kosher salt. Per volume kosher salt is less salty than table salt. Reason being kosher salt has a larger crystal size than table salt. Morton's kosher is a little more dense (saltier per volume) than Diamond kosher.

Enjoy,
Gary

yes indeed. I overbrined. And I used sea salt, not kosher salt.
I'm not sure I have the fortitude to fry!!

G Wiv wrote:

funghi wrote:What is the deal with the brine? Is overnight too long? the bird was salty as all get out.

Funghi,

As Bill/SFNM points out it's the concentration of the salt, not the amount of time.

I think that's partially true...

My understanding from what I've read/heard (and basic lessons vaguely remembered from chemistry class) is that time does have some effect on the brining process in addition to salt concentration.

What essentially happens is that when the chicken is placed in the brine, there is a higher concentration of salt outside than inside the bird. Water moves from areas of higher to lower concentration, so the salty water permeates the bird, bringing the salt molecules with it (hence, flavored bird). But then the chicken is more concentrated, so the water moves out and it keeps going back and forth until an equilibrium is reached. Basically, the process of osmosis...

Sooo....if you don't leave the bird in the brine long enough, that could cause your chicken to be overly salty. After it reaches the point of equilibrium, though, keeping it in the brine any longer should not affect the saltiness. That's when ratio of salt/water used affects how salty the bird will end up tasting.

This also works for a "dry brine." Apparently it's becoming a more popular method among chefs. Rather than place the chicken in a wet brine, you can just salt it and let it sit for a long time until that equilibrium is reached. Just have to make sure to wait long enough otherwise you'll have a dried out bird.

Janet C. wrote:

G Wiv wrote:

funghi wrote:What is the deal with the brine? Is overnight too long? the bird was salty as all get out.

Funghi,

As Bill/SFNM points out it's the concentration of the salt, not the amount of time.

I think that's partially true...

My understanding from what I've read/heard (and basic lessons vaguely remembered from chemistry class) is that time does have some effect on the brining process in addition to salt concentration.

What essentially happens is that when the chicken is placed in the brine, there is a higher concentration of salt outside than inside the bird. Water moves from areas of higher to lower concentration, so the salty water permeates the bird, bringing the salt molecules with it (hence, flavored bird). But then the chicken is more concentrated, so the water moves out and it keeps going back and forth until an equilibrium is reached. Basically, the process of osmosis...

Sooo....if you don't leave the bird in the brine long enough, that could cause your chicken to be overly salty. After it reaches the point of equilibrium, though, keeping it in the brine any longer should not affect the saltiness. That's when ratio of salt/water used affects how salty the bird will end up tasting.

This also works for a "dry brine." Apparently it's becoming a more popular method among chefs. Rather than place the chicken in a wet brine, you can just salt it and let it sit for a long time until that equilibrium is reached. Just have to make sure to wait long enough otherwise you'll have a dried out bird.

I've never heard of a dry brine, but based on the principals of osmosis you mentioned the salt would just pull moisture out of the meat to achieve equilibrium with no moisture returning to the meat.

If you use an salty brine and soak for too long you actually begin to wet cure the meat. I've done this accidentally numerous times with chicken.

Flip

Flip -

More on the "dry brine" as practiced by Judy Rodgers of Zuni Cafe here at the LA Times.

gleam wrote:Flip -

More on the "dry brine" as practiced by Judy Rodgers of Zuni Cafe here at the LA Times.

And some earlier discussion of this topic can also be found here.

(Great LATimes article, thanks for sharing it, Ed.)

From that LA Times article:

"You might think early salting would result in drier meat because the salt would draw out moisture. But the way it seems to work is that over time, the meat reabsorbs the moisture, carrying the salt with it. Furthermore, because that moisture is loaded with amino acids and sugars, the meat browns better and forms a better crust."

I was trying to recall where I had seen a chef talking about this. Indeed it was Judy Rodgers of Zuni Cafe. Thanks, gleam, for posting that article.

Flip, I once unintentially left some pork tenderloins in a wet brine for about 3 or 4 days. We had used some for a catering event and had a couple leftover that I wasn't able to get around to cooking right away. When I did finally cook them (I can't recall if we grilled or roasted it), they were extremely flavorful, not overly salty, and really juicy. But maybe chicken breaks down differently/quicker?

Janet C. wrote:

G Wiv wrote:

funghi wrote:What is the deal with the brine? Is overnight too long? the bird was salty as all get out.

Funghi,

As Bill/SFNM points out it's the concentration of the salt, not the amount of time.

...snip...

This also works for a "dry brine." Apparently it's becoming a more popular method among chefs. Rather than place the chicken in a wet brine, you can just salt it and let it sit for a long time until that equilibrium is reached. Just have to make sure to wait long enough otherwise you'll have a dried out bird.

I read this and started to laugh. "Dry Brine" is just a fancy schmancy way of making meat kosher. To be kosher, all blood must be either drained or boiled from the meat so salt is used, great handfuls of it. The process usually results in one tough and dry piece of flesh. I'm having a hard time believing the meat reaches "equilibrium" as the salt seems like a one way process. Salt is hygroscopic, it absorbs liquid. Salt in solution works differently, as was described in an earlier post.

Wet brining is one step in corning beef and indeed is intended as a preservative.

Janet,

I think it depends on the amount of salt more than the length of time. Overly salty brines have often resulted in that rubbery, flavor enhanced texture you find with many store bought items.

Interesting information on the early salting, though.

Flip

Diannie wrote:

Janet C. wrote:

G Wiv wrote:

funghi wrote:What is the deal with the brine? Is overnight too long? the bird was salty as all get out.

Funghi,

As Bill/SFNM points out it's the concentration of the salt, not the amount of time.

...snip...

This also works for a "dry brine." Apparently it's becoming a more popular method among chefs. Rather than place the chicken in a wet brine, you can just salt it and let it sit for a long time until that equilibrium is reached. Just have to make sure to wait long enough otherwise you'll have a dried out bird.

I read this and started to laugh. "Dry Brine" is just a fancy schmancy way of making meat kosher. To be kosher, all blood must be either drained or boiled from the meat so salt is used, great handfuls of it. The process usually results in one tough and dry piece of flesh. I'm having a hard time believing the meat reaches "equilibrium" as the salt seems like a one way process. Salt is hygroscopic, it absorbs liquid. Salt in solution works differently, as was described in an earlier post.

Wet brining is one step in corning beef and indeed is intended as a preservative.

Also, if I remember correctly, the Zuni Cafe's recipe affords extra-crispy skin which, in my mind, denotes dessication.

Diannie wrote:

Janet C. wrote:
...snip...

This also works for a "dry brine." Apparently it's becoming a more popular method among chefs. Rather than place the chicken in a wet brine, you can just salt it and let it sit for a long time until that equilibrium is reached. Just have to make sure to wait long enough otherwise you'll have a dried out bird.

I read this and started to laugh. "Dry Brine" is just a fancy schmancy way of making meat kosher. To be kosher, all blood must be either drained or boiled from the meat so salt is used, great handfuls of it. The process usually results in one tough and dry piece of flesh. I'm having a hard time believing the meat reaches "equilibrium" as the salt seems like a one way process. Salt is hygroscopic, it absorbs liquid. Salt in solution works differently, as was described in an earlier post.

Wet brining is one step in corning beef and indeed is intended as a preservative.

I think in the LA Times article Judy Rodgers points out the difference b/t her salting method and the method of making meat kosher (mainly a time difference). I think the liquid that returns to the meat in the "dry" method is the moisture (the beads of liquid that appear after you salt the meat) that initially seeps out of the chicken. It's reabsorbed after letting the chicken sit long enough...hence, reaches an equilibrium.

Based on the article, where they do a side by side comparison, not to mention the many fans of Zuni Cafe's roast chicken, the method apparently works.

Christopher Gordon wrote:

Diannie wrote:

Janet C. wrote:

G Wiv wrote:

funghi wrote:What is the deal with the brine? Is overnight too long? the bird was salty as all get out.

Funghi,

As Bill/SFNM points out it's the concentration of the salt, not the amount of time.

...snip...

This also works for a "dry brine." Apparently it's becoming a more popular method among chefs. Rather than place the chicken in a wet brine, you can just salt it and let it sit for a long time until that equilibrium is reached. Just have to make sure to wait long enough otherwise you'll have a dried out bird.

I read this and started to laugh. "Dry Brine" is just a fancy schmancy way of making meat kosher. To be kosher, all blood must be either drained or boiled from the meat so salt is used, great handfuls of it. The process usually results in one tough and dry piece of flesh. I'm having a hard time believing the meat reaches "equilibrium" as the salt seems like a one way process. Salt is hygroscopic, it absorbs liquid. Salt in solution works differently, as was described in an earlier post.

Wet brining is one step in corning beef and indeed is intended as a preservative.

Also, if I remember correctly, the Zuni Cafe's recipe affords extra-crispy skin which, in my mind, denotes dessication.

I've made the Zuni recipe probably 25 times and have never once ended up with anything resembling a dry bird. Moist and deeply flavorful flesh with crispy, beautifully browned skin. The skin is not dry either, but crispy with kind of a sticky, intense layer of fat underneath. I cannot tell you why it works, only that it does. It's a different, longer process than koshering (and by no means involving "great handfuls" of salt), as is pointed out in the article.

And since when were kosher chickens tough and dry?

I wasn't saying the flesh would turn out dry...just opining(w/o checking my Zuni Cafe...great cookbook by the way...or reading the linked article)...and having yet to make Roger's bird...that employing salt also yielded a crispy exterior, hence: dessication...at least of the skin.

gleam wrote:And since when were kosher chickens tough and dry?

You never ate at my grandmother's...

Well, this thread and the excellent chicken at Hollyhock Hill last month inspired me to try making fried chicken a la Itzhak Perlman. Five hours a day frying chicken for the next month-- no, not really. But I do plan to make a few serious attempts at by-the-book chicken all the same (not that, in the past, making at least passable chicken had been as hard as this thread seems to make it sound).

Four hours brining a cut-up Whole Foods fryer with G Wiv's salt/brown sugar/buttermilk/hint of pepper brine. I think I may have watered it down too much because there wasn't much buttermilk tang, but the other hoped-for results of brining were there.

Dredge in flour, dredge in egg, coat with a 4-1 flour and corn meal, salt and pepper-only coating (minimalist baseline for future experimentation). I wasn't wild about the corn meal, maybe it brought back too many memories of Shake and Bake or something. Anyway, I like a softer, flakier coating. Any idea how you get that?

I had to go buy a Taylor digital thermometer when I realized my existing meat thermometer was about 150 degrees shy of what I needed it to go up to. It was suprising the variation within a pan of oil-- and the high point wasn't where you'd expect it, right over the heat source. Result was, I heated that sucker up over 400 before realizing I was up that high. Cold chicken I hoped would bring it down, but the dark meat got browned pretty good within a couple of minutes. The white, seen in the foreground, was definitely better. Oh well, that's something learned.

Every recipe I looked at was different, on the whole they expected me to cook it for 20 minutes after browning it on each side for 5 but my total cooking time to internal temperatures around 175-190F seemed to be 15-18 total. Nobody got pink sushi chicken so it must have been okay. Also, no two agreed-- cover at the beginning, uncover at the beginning and cover later, don't cover-- what do you do?



The family LOVED it. Not too greasy (used G Wiv's peanut oil with a splash of olive oil), tender juicy meat, they thought the outside was plenty tasty though I'd like to dial it up a little. Anyway, for a first try on this level, I was happy with it. Thanks yet again, LTHers!

Hi,

What I long ago read and have since followed, if you're cooking temperature is 350, then heat it up to 375 before introducing food which will cool it.

When I met Austin Leslis, a renowned fry cook from New Orleans, his technique was to turn up the heat once the chicken was in the fryer.

I guess you have to find what works for you.

BTW - your chicken looks great!

Regards,

Mike G wrote:[Anyway, for a first try on this level, I was happy with it.

Mike,

Looks terrific!

4 weeks, and 300 chickens, until Carnegie Hall.

Enjoy,
Gary