While I don't care for the term "foodie", I suppose I am one. I am also someone who has very little interest in good or bad service, "the restaurant experience", or anything like that. For me, the restaurant is just something that stands between me and food.

So, as an attempt to answer the OP's question, I offer this:

Imagine an art lover who collects paintings. They appreciate great art at the Art Institute, smaller galleries around town, and in private artist studios. To this art lover, a good painting is a good painting, no matter if it stands in a museum with a gold bathroom or in a loft with no plumbing. This art lover is willing to collect art that they love from a gallery that has a surly receptionist or if the artist is an outrageous asshole. They're willing to walk through a dirty alleyways or fight for an exclusive meeting with someone just to get the opportunity to get the painting that they covet. The surroundings and circumstances are not germane to the work.

Now, I suppose that this type of collector/art lover is not too hard for anyone to imagine. In fact, I would say that this archetype is common among connoisseurs of many things.

As it goes for one pleasurable experience (collecting art) so it goes for another (collecting tastes). It should not be too hard to imagine that there exists a type of "foodie" whose motivation is significantly tilted toward taste, while other considerations fall away. (I am certainly one of these people).

It may be annoying if the person standing between me and the food is slow or disrespectful, but if the food is a work of art, I simply don't care.

Best,
Michael

My view is that how much or little one tolerates poor service depends mostly on one's personality, and to a much lesser extent on factors such as experience in food service or experience in food enjoyment.

Myself, I am pretty easygoing, some would say too easygoing. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, and don't often get upset at people. Like Khaopaat, I can't remember the last time I encountered poor service in a restaurant, most likely because I wasn't paying attention and if I was, I didn't care enough to remember. Sweet Baboo, on the other hand, is, shall we say, somewhere on the other side of the spectrum. He tends to get annoyed by people on a daily basis. I have no doubt he could remember and recite the last five times he encountered poor restaurant service, and at least the most recent one is probably still bugging him.

I do think those other factors count for something though. As I might have mentioned before, having worked at a McDonald's during my high school summers, now whenever I see some pokey fast-food restaurant employee moseying around putting my order together in a slooow and/or inefficient way, it makes me want to jump over the counter and do it myself.

But then I forget about it.

Katie wrote:I do think those other factors count for something though. As I might have mentioned before, having worked at a McDonald's during my high school summers, now whenever I see some pokey fast-food restaurant employee moseying around putting my order together in a slooow and/or inefficient way, it makes me want to jump over the counter and do it myself.

But then I forget about it.

It's funny - I can barely darken the door of a coffee shop these days for much the same reason - but in a restaurant, somehow I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt - and I recognize fully that this isn't the employee's problem, it's mine.

I'll bite. ( :--)

As a semi-foodie, full-time food lover, and some-time waiter/busboy/cook in kitchens large and small over the years, I find myself about 90% with Gypsy, but in partial agreement and disagreement with both the OP and the rest of the thread contents.

To the apology question. Elakin repeatedly asks what, taken in context, was so offensive, or amounted to a personal attack. For me (subjectively), the problem is that the context doesn't help once you've hit the hot buttons. We all know that tone on-line is hard to manage. What we type in perhaps a light, tongue-in-cheek frame of mind can come across as utterly sarcastic snark when read by someone else. They can't see you smile, or hear the self-depracating lilt in your voice, or note the deliberate hyperbole in your accompanying body language.

So once I read phrases like:

"Braised steak? This tells me pretty much all I need to know about where you're coming from. " "There are places for people like you..." it no longer matters what comes next. Those phrases are, to me, antagonistic, belittling and insulting.

It's true that the rest of the post somewhat mitigates it, but it comes too late. Once you've referred to anyone as "people like you," it's over.

In addition, while the "braised steak" comment in the OP was odd, it's not at all clear to me what it tells us about the McClane, or what you might have meant by "all I need to know." So it's both dismissive, and vague, which tends to make people pretty antsy.

All that said, I think there is some real merit in the suggestion to McClane that he/she may be part of the problem. Service is an interaction, a 2-way street. You can insist all you like that you're the customer, you're paying your money and you want prompt, efficient, defferential, friendly service or else. Sadly (for you), happily (for me), life just ain't like that. You have to bring something besides money to the table, or you will never get what you're insisting on. That would be like, to cite the piquant quote that Gary provided, engaging a hooker and insisting that your money buy true love or you'll take your business elsewhere. Good luck with that.

Yet, on the 3rd hand, I'm somewhat mystified by the responding Buddhas who claim to have either no experience of bad service in a lifetime of eating out, or such sublimely adjusted egos as to have no memory of bad service even having received it.

I'm not only willing but eager to dine in places where no one speaks my language and the entire staff comprises one large family all doing their uncoordinated best. I'll happily try the dish that comes, even if it's clearly not what I had tried to order. That's the adventure.
But context does matter.
In a greasy spoon at breakfast on Saturday morning, I'd like the very experienced server to refill my coffee, and notice whether or not there is cream on the table. I'd like the eggs and the toast to appear before one or the other is stone cold so I can enjoy them together. I don't think that's asking too much and the lack of it does impede my enjoyment of the meal. Further, my dining out resources are limited and I will seek out the greasy spoon that meets my weekend breakfast requirements.

At the higher end, I do want to be made to feel welcome and not like an intruder in what would otherwise be pre-lapserian Eden for the maitre'd, if only customers would stop coming in and wanting food.

In between, there's a lot of gray, case-by-case decisions to make. Sometimes a chef-owner may be producing great food, but not have her/his front of house really under control. To get that great stuff, I may well put up with some chaos, or rookie serving mistakes.

But I also have a breaking point---just a little "click" that happens when I've just waited too long for the main course, or seen too many people who came in later served first, or had to ask once too often for a small thing, or watched one dish get cold because another's dish just never came out, etc. At these points, I'm on edge and the potential for a nice enjoyable meal out seems to evaporate before my eyes.

But no matter what, I stick with lots of smiles, and "please" and "thank you," and anything else that will help oil the machinery for both of us.

elakin: well, you first off made fun of his mention of 'braised steak'. the implication is that the OP knows nothing about food, because no one braises steak, and therefore you immediately decided that they really would only enjoy a restaurant with bad food, but trendy. what isnt offensive about that? the OP was nothing if not polite and i believe responses should keep that in mind. your post was snarky. justjoan

Where do you get a good braised steak, anyway? I haven't had one in years.

mrbarolo wrote:Yet, on the 3rd hand, I'm somewhat mystified by the responding Buddhas who claim to have either no experience of bad service in a lifetime of eating out, or such sublimely adjusted egos as to have no memory of bad service even having received it.

Don't forget the part about not caring that much.

It could be that the OP meant "broiled" instead of "braised."

Just sayin'.

well, you first off made fun of his mention of 'braised steak'. the implication is that the OP knows nothing about food, because no one braises steak, and therefore you immediately decided that they really would only enjoy a restaurant with bad food, but trendy. what isnt offensive about that?

Wow. If I had really done all that, I could see how you'd find it rude. You say I "made fun" of his mention of "braised steak". But I didn't. I merely said that it tells me all I need to know about him. The implication being that he's just not that interested in food. Or at least, not nearly as interested in food as he is in "feeling taken care of", which he said himself in the post.

The rest is your assumption, not mine, and it's wrong. I made no assumption about the OP only enjoying restaurants with bad food, but trendy. The assumption I made was, again, that the food isn't important to him as the other factors. Which wasn't an assumption, since he said it himself.

Further, justjoan, I think you've made a number of strange leaps. You've assumed that someone who's more interested in service, ambiance, etc, can't appreciate good food, which is just silly, and you've implied that trendy restaurants place an emphasis on great service, which is often not at all the case. I basically find your assumptions puzzling. They're probably more reflective of your particular mindset than of anything I actually said.

I can see now how you'd find it offensive, given the number of strange assumptions you made about what I "decided" or "implied", but based on what I actually said, I'm not sure how anyone can find it offensive.

Thanks to Mr. Barolo and whiskeybent for actually trying to give me a constructive response. Barolo, you're probably right about the lack of tone and other non-verbal cues leading to misunderstandings. I also think people sometimes come into these discussion with huge chips on their shoulders.

Mike G wrote:Where do you get a good braised steak, anyway? I haven't had one in years.

Back in the '70's my mom used to make some sort of 'Swiss Steak' in a bag. I think the bag came with seasonings. I'd say that was the very definition of braised steak. Fwiw, the service at our house absolutely sucked (we actually had to bus our own table ). Should I ask her if she can remember what brand of bag she used to buy?

=R=

Braised Cube Steak with Orange
Braised Beef and Veal with Tomato Gravy
Smothered Steak

I once prepared a recipe for something like "Grits and Grillades" from Molly Stevens cookbook All About Braising that called for thin round steaks or some such.

Etc.

I read it like MrBarolo - once the "that tells me all I need to know about you" came across, the rest of what you said doesn't matter. Sorry

So about service, it's so subjective! I've had what I consider an appalling experience, I've been with someone who I think might have overreacted to what I considered a less-than-appalling service gaffe, and I bet that in both cases there are folks here who would agree and others who would disagree (both in whether or not the incidents were appalling and whether or not the reactions/lack of reactions were warranted or not).

Life's too short! Let's try to be about finding the good in things, the tasty and excellent, and not dwelling on the awful, the enfeebling and the sad. Move on!

( nobody gets to throw this in my face the next time I post a crabby rant, plz thx k bai )

Mike G wrote:Where do you get a good braised steak, anyway? I haven't had one in years.

Well, Mike, I could send you to a place that makes a great one but they have really crappy service.

To the OP's original question . . .

First, I don't think of myself as a "foodie" but I'm willing to go with that for the moment. I reject the opening statement that "foodies forget/neglect service". Speaking for myself, anyway, service is important within a certain context. My judgement of the service is going to vary based upon a number of factors such as price point, time of day/level of volume, etc. If I hit, say, a diner during lunch hour with one waitress for a whole room where the entrees are all under $10 I'm going to have a very different service expectation than I would at Charlie Trotters. That's not to say that I would consistently excuse poor service simply because of a lower price point (as one example); if it was a continuing pattern at the same place and it hampered my enjoyment of my meals I'd head elsewhere. If it's more of a one-off thing due to factors that I can understand I'm a lot more willing to just roll with it - but that's me.

I rarely run into service issues, but it does happen. I am one, as is Mrs. Kman, that tends to engage with my server though so that certainly may be a factor. I HAVE had meals where there was bad service and it ruined my enjoyment of the meal even though the food was good - but rarely. Honestly, though, the majority of the experiences I've had eating out that I would term BAD have almost always been the fault of the kitchen (or, sometimes, ownership/management) and not of the actual "serving" staff. But, yeah, if the service actually "sucks" (meaning they are just bad and there's no damn good reason for it) I don't forget or neglect it, it definitely bugs me, I just don't appear to have either your (possibly higher) standards or (possibly much worse) luck. Doesn't make me right or you wrong and I hope you have better luck finding what your want out there.

Kman wrote:I rarely run into service issues, but it does happen.

It occurs to me that truly bad service, when it happens, is only able to be perceived as such because it is outside the norm. If every time one showed up at a restaurant in this town, one were mistreated, we wouldn't recognize that as "bad service," we'd simply accept it as "restaurant service." It's only the fact that 97% of the restaurants in this town provide good service that makes it possible to know that the other 3% are failing to rise to this norm.

elakin wrote:

.

There are places for people like you, for whom the experience is far more important than the food. I'm sure you've found some by now that please you. You go ahead and stick to the places that give you what you need. My and my foodie buds will be chowing down on some amazing food served by surly waitresses in plastic baskets while we try in vain to get a refill on our water.

You know this is not the first time I have seen this attitude here. It is basically an a middle finger to all those who think differently than you, it is divisive, and it tells ME all that I need to know about you and your"foodie buddies" and their false sense of superiority over people you know nothing about.

You are right that it is the food that is of utmost importance BUT your implication that someone who views restaurant going as a holistic experience is somehow less knowledgeable than you or that it precludes them from experiencing amazing food, is simply laughable and completely untrue.

It is nice to see that some here called you on this post, because civility is a two way street.

Kman wrote:Speaking for myself, anyway, service is important within a certain context. My judgement of the service is going to vary based upon a number of factors such as price point, time of day/level of volume, etc. If I hit, say, a diner during lunch hour with one waitress for a whole room where the entrees are all under $10 I'm going to have a very different service expectation than I would at Charlie Trotters.

I tend to agree with this. I'm far more forgiving if I'm dropping less than, I don't know, $50 a head. After that, I would say I 'notice' errors, more than I get annoyed by them unless they're huge. That being said, dining out is - to those in my socioeconomic situation - still a luxury so service does matter - I don't want to be coddled, but I also don't want to be treated with hostility.

Once, at a French place, the waiter suggested a $125 bottle of wine, I chuckled and said that wasn't quite what I was looking for and wound up grabbing a $45 bottle....his demeanor changed completely, basically getting pissed, making faces at us, refused eye contact for most of the evening, and even skipped the wine ritual. This was not about to ruin my evening even though I did find it annoying.

Well, by the end of the evening - maybe he realized he was being a jerk, maybe our "pleases" and "thank yous" made him reevaluate our table, maybe the fact we didn't inhale our food and seemed interested in a nice evening, I don't know what - we won him over, winding up with comped desserts and dessert wine and a pleasant final third of the meal.

His tip didn't suffer (much - when I'm comped things I tend to bump the tip accordingly but I didn't this time) and I see no reason to call out the place, but I do wonder how things would've turned out if we gave him attitude or complained to the manager - I doubt as well as it had. Plus, then I risk having a note put into my OpenTable account about being difficult No thanks.

Another (far cheaper) place once brought out our entrees literally 30 seconds after our entrees (we didn't even get the apps onto our plates by the time the food came out). Some people may freak out about this. We just pushed our entrees to the side, leisurely ate our apps, ate our entrees when we were finished, and tipped accordingly. I won't be back, but I'm not about to dwell on it.

I think the reason why people tend to be more forgiving of service is it's one person, one representative, one occurrence. If the food is bad, there's multiple levels that failed. Working directly with customers isn't easy and sometimes people have bad or off days - you gotta roll with it. If everything else is great - especially after multiple visits - except one night with one waiter, I'd say the restaurant is doing alright, the only part of the restaurant that failed is the waiter.

I'm probably more easily agitated at say, a wine shop, than a restaurant - but that's because the exact same products can frequently be found elsewhere.


And elakin - your entire initial post was aggressive, the follow ups were almost comically passive-aggressive (hilariously defensive with demands of context worthy of O'Reilly). Go back to your original post and ask yourself "would I say these exact words out loud to someone I just met?" Or maybe "how would I feel if someone used these exact works to my wife?" Two brief examples are as follows, but if you really - genuinely and honestly - don't think you're coming off with a condescending attitude, I'd be happy to dissect your post line by line - every single sentence was aggressive.

"This tells me pretty much all I need to know about where you're coming from." - Not hostile? I suppose not compared to:

"[T]he surly waitresses often change their tune if you're nice to them, show a sense of humor, or a bit of empathy. They work damn hard, you know." - What does this mean, if it doesn't mean the OP has no sense of humor, has no empathy, doesn't act nice, and doesn't seem to think waitstaff work hard? All because he cares about service and likes braised steak?

I agree that the reply was a bit hostile, but this needs to be viewed in light of the OP's similarly hostile post in the TAC thread, which as here appears to both lack a command of certain basic facts and ignore subsequent requests for clarification.

so...just summing up....gave him the finger, ad hominem attacks, personal attacks, similar to Bill O'Reilly....what else?

Are you sure there's not more you can read into my harsh, aggressive post? I mean, surely I tore off the guy's arm and beat him about the head with the bloody stump, burned down his house and sold his kids into slavery, right? Or the internet equivalent of that.

People, really. Calm down. The guy made a post that was purposely exaggerated to the point that he knew he was going to take some heat, and I gave him a little. Big whoop. The fact that he hasn't returned to comment indicates that he's probably reading along and laughing at all the fuss.

Do you guys think he really wanted to talk about food (and/or service), or is he more interested in fanning flames and instigating day-long arguments?

elakin wrote: The guy made a post that was purposely exaggerated to the point that he knew he was going to take some heat, and I gave him a little. Big whoop.

There is so much wrong with the presumption in that statement that I would not know where to begin, but I am sure it will make your "foodie buds" proud.

elakin wrote:he fact that he hasn't returned to comment indicates that he's probably reading along and laughing at all the fuss.

Do you guys think he really wanted to talk about food (and/or service), or is he more interested in fanning flames and instigating day-long arguments?

I am sure it does not occur to you that it was your flame that kept him from coming back, or the fact that he posted one on topic post and you posted one flame and six off topic posts.

But it was his fault for sure and lets hope he never comes back to darken this board again.

Does the term "lighten up" occur occasionally to anyone reading this thread?

elakin wrote:so...just summing up....gave him the finger, ad hominem attacks, personal attacks, similar to Bill O'Reilly....what else?

Bill O'Reilly? I never said that - show me the context.




Not to beat a dead horse, but really now, I'm still puzzled about the whole TAC situation. When I think of a "service gaffe" someone at my table not getting food and no one coming over when a manager was requested certainly qualifies (the latter more than the former).

I've read the arguments in TAC's defense - and to be honest I totally get it - but it seems several people found that poster to be goofy for complaining.

nr706 wrote:Does the term "lighten up" occur occasionally to anyone reading this thread?

Actually, the term "Yelp" came to mind, very reminiscent.

Hi all,

We're going to lock this thread now, since it has drifted far out of the realm of useful.

Thanks, for your understanding,

=R=
for the moderators