If no one steps in to tell these kids what is and isn't appropriate, they'll never learn. Yes, it would be ideal if their parents did that, but apparently that wasn't happening here. What we're really talking about here are community standards for behavior - and we're that community.

In absence of parental intervention, we could outsource that to the police, as suggested upthread, but I'd argue that it'd be an overblown response and a waste of taxpayer resources that should be devoted to fighting crime. So, you've got decent odds that the kids blow you off (or say something with lots of **** marks), but if the community says nothing, it's effectively social approval of the behavior.

If kids like this are told to mind their manners or leave at every place they go and spout off, they'll eventually get the hint.

-Dan

If I may chime in, I have a HUGE problem with the way the majority of people act in public these days. I was brought up with strict Southern values. Yes maam, no maam, yes sir, no sir...MR and MS...
It truly upsets me when I see people acting the way that the OP described. Whether it's a teen, a child, or an adult. I feel that it is my right as a citizen and a lady to tell them that their behavior is inexcusable.
I have found in the past that if you speak to the children as if they're adults and politely tell them that they're upsetting you and in my case that it's inappropriate to use that language in front of a lady such as myself, they are apologetic and ashamed of their behavior. More often than not, they're trying to show off, and when they realize it isn't working, they stop.
Don't get me wrong, I've been told to shut the *** up before, and in that case I just give them the "I'm really sorry for you" look, and leave. I will add that I was blessed with my mother's stare that could stop a frieght train in it's tracks. Not sure if that has anything to do with my luck...

Khaopaat wrote:While I agree that it's pretty pathetic that shameless punks (and I believe that shameless punkhood transcends age, gender, socioeconomic status, & ethnicity) might behave this way in public, and can definitely see how speaking up, in theory, would be immediately cathartic and might give one the feeling of standing up for basic decency, I'm curious - what is the expected outcome of speaking up?

I have lots of experience with this situation, and about a 70% or higher success rate with a polite and somewhat deferential "hey, would you mind? I've got kids here." Most often, people don't even realize what's coming out of their mouth (myself sadly included) - or don't expect to be called on it. I've gotten a look of surprise and an apology more often than not.

If that statement doesn't make a difference, I let it go, figuring that I've accomplished the following: I've let my son know that I care about what he's exposed to, whether or not I can change it, and I've let him know there are respectful ways to address an uncomfortable situation. Usually, what blowhards are after is to make everyone squirm in uncomfortable silence, and I've found calling them on it diffuses the silence whether or not they actually stop. The key is being respectful and polite.

We could turn it on its head another way: what if it wasn't kids, but a beloved white-gloved, tea-drinking, octogenarian maiden aunt? Wouldn't you want to show her that at least YOU respect her somewhat antique sensibilities, even if your words possibly have an adverse effect on the blowhards?

Mhays wrote:

Khaopaat wrote:While I agree that it's pretty pathetic that shameless punks (and I believe that shameless punkhood transcends age, gender, socioeconomic status, & ethnicity) might behave this way in public, and can definitely see how speaking up, in theory, would be immediately cathartic and might give one the feeling of standing up for basic decency, I'm curious - what is the expected outcome of speaking up?

I have lots of experience with this situation, and about a 70% or higher success rate with a polite and somewhat deferential "hey, would you mind? I've got kids here." Most often, people don't even realize what's coming out of their mouth (myself sadly included) - or don't expect to be called on it. I've gotten a look of surprise and an apology more often than not.

If that statement doesn't make a difference, I let it go, figuring that I've accomplished the following: I've let my son know that I care about what he's exposed to, whether or not I can change it, and I've let him know there are respectful ways to address an uncomfortable situation. Usually, what blowhards are after is to make everyone squirm in uncomfortable silence, and I've found calling them on it diffuses the silence whether or not they actually stop. The key is being respectful and polite.

Michelle hit the nail on the head, thats how I have approached this situation, and have had similar results. In no way putting myself, or my child in danger.

I'll be honest - I'm very surprised that some of you have experienced a 70% apologetic response rate. If that's the case, then I hope you keep experiencing a high level of success, but more so I hope the 30% of incorrigible ne'er-do-wells you encounter along the way aren't violent and/or crazy. I personally have only witnessed the more confrontational/aggressive response when profane loudmouths were asked to keep it down.

Personally, I think it'd be great if the community as a whole (or at least everyone in the restaurant at the time) could join together as one to swiftly & generously delivery complementary knuckle sandwiches to profane and/or indecent punks such as the ones in the OP

Khaopaat wrote:swiftly & generously delivery complementary knuckle sandwiches to profane and/or indecent punks such as the ones in the OP

Knowing Gus, those would have to be deep-fried knuckles.

I also want to state (though a little off subject) that when I encounter someone that is polite, I make it a point in telling them that I appreciate it.

For the record, if there are kids around and there is someone swearing, I do tell them to watch their language and if they continue they are asked to leave.

Now, going back to this incident, I do remember a group of 3 coming in. One ordering some fries to eat in. I did hear something but when I looked out in the dining area, the 3 kids stepped outside. Heard someone yell at someone outside. Then they came back and ate. I didn't hear anything out of the ordinary when they reappeared. Now keep in mind I'm busy taking orders, making orders, going to the back, answering phones so its hard to catch everything.

The best way to hndle it is to tell the owner. Let them handle it. I have no problem telling anyone to watch what they say or to kick em out for that matter.

gp60004 wrote:The best way to hndle it is to tell the owner. Let them handle it. I have no problem telling anyone to watch what they say or to kick em out for that matter.

I think this is the best approach to this sort of situation. Unlike other patrons, when the owner of the establishment says, "watch your mouths or get out", he actually has the authority/legal standing to make good on that ultimatum (and if he meets resistance, then a 911 call is probably warranted...the aforementioned group beat-down would totally work here as well).

I wasn’t going to comment further because I was starting to feel uncomfortable with the “some nerdy white who belongs in Winnetka tone getting all aggrieved” edge I was feeling in some of the replies, but now that the discussion has moved past that I do have a couple of things to add.

The kids (the kids at WASC and my kids) were using “huff” in the sense of something low-quality.

Several years ago when I worked for the DC Bar I did an interview with Jim Nabrit, who had been one of the team of lawyers that worked for the NAACP’s Legal Defense Fund, which basically changed the US in the 50’s and 60’s. There is an inherent conflict between anti-discrimination laws and trespass laws, which allow business owners to ask people to leave. The use of trespass laws for discriminatory purposes also has a sorry history. (It’s more than half-way through a long interview.) I don’t envy Gus or any proprietor having to make these judgment calls.

We have been lucky. in the past, they would stop with the cursing.

Khaopaat wrote:While I agree that it's pretty pathetic that shameless punks (and I believe that shameless punkhood transcends age, gender, socioeconomic status, & ethnicity) might behave this way in public, and can definitely see how speaking up, in theory, would be immediately cathartic and might give one the feeling of standing up for basic decency, I'm curious - what is the expected outcome of speaking up?

I would guess that these kids looking remorsefully at their feet, mumbling "sorry sir", and walking out of the restaurant with their tails between their legs would have around the same odds as a pair of meteors falling out of the sky and leaving two smoldering craters where they stood (which would be pretty satisfying to watch...I'd feel bad about the two holes punched in Gus's roof though).

Anyone whose sense of consideration & courtesy is so lacking, whose upbringing so supbar, that they would wander around loudly dropping f- and n-bombs with total disregard for everyone around them, would likely respond to the request to watch their mouths with something along the lines of, "**** you ************, I'll **** your *** up, ******* *****". What's the "correct response" to that sort of teenage bravado? Escalating to physical violence? Stepping back and "letting the kids win"?

I agree that it's definitely a teaching moment, but I'm picturing something more along the lines of, "Weren't those kids that just left obnoxious? That's an awful way to behave, not just in public, but anytime."

Edited to fix a sentence fragment in the first paragraph

Full disclosure:
I have a very high level of "my parents and neighborhood taught me to look ppl right in the eye, and not be afraid to walk down any street, at any hour." I have kind of an imposing presence. I have never, in my lifetime, encountered anyone who did not think extremely hard before engaging me in physical confrontation. It's very possible that I might have a "spoiled" quality about myself in this regard. The last time seevral ppl annoyed me enough for me to take action was when four ppl were drinking in my alley on Parker and Kimball. Directly in back of that minimart that faces Diversey - the one with the laundromat and the baskin robbins. There were four ppl, very loud, talking trash. They were too loud. I wanted to sleep. They were too loud. I walked out back, opened my garage and told them very calmy my full name, my full address, and unit number. I then told them I would beat the living crap out of each one of them if they didn't pipe down. I offered them the chance to take me on right then and there. I waited for their response for a good 5 seconds. Since they didn't respond, I told them if they wanted to think about it for a while, to simply ring my buzzer, and gave them my full name, address, and unit number, and assured them I was NOT kidding in any way. As I walked back to my place, there were a few ppl looking through open windows who expressed their appreciation. They might have taken me. Maybe I need to be taken down a peg, but really, it takes a LOT for me to fly off the handle.

My rambling point would be this:
If it came to me having to confront anyone, I would expect absolutely anything. At that point, the ball would be in their court, so to speak. They can do whatever it is they wish to do, but they should expect consequences for their actions. Whether they walk away, or apologize, or stay and simply tone it down - I simply don't care, because I believe that it would be to correct thing to stand up for my beliefs.

If they did stay and tone it down, I would probably thank them for being respectful of others, and offer them that talking shit is perfectly fine - when there are no kids around. I might even say it in a manner that employed a few f bombs.

Well, I guess I missed the denouement. . . .When I saw Gus had said something in this thread, I was curious on his take on things, so I PMed him asking him what it sounded like to him and what he would have wanted me to do. Since he didn’t reply here, I will report what he said. He said he was very busy, but heard a lot of loud, inappropriate language and then he saw the guys leave and was relieved. Then they came back in and he said he heard someone screaming at someone else briefly—which makes me think maybe somebody told them to shut up. Then they ordered French fries and ate quietly. He said one guy was a semi-regular, but his friend wasn’t. Gus said he’s going to talk the regular about language. Gus also said he would have wanted me to say something to him and for him to take care of it.

Gus is such a great guy. He apologized if “my meal was ruined.” Since it was already in my stomach, it really wasn’t.

gp60004 wrote:The best way to hndle it is to tell the owner. Let them handle it. I have no problem telling anyone to watch what they say or to kick em out for that matter.

Thread closed?

gleam wrote:

gp60004 wrote:The best way to hndle it is to tell the owner. Let them handle it. I have no problem telling anyone to watch what they say or to kick em out for that matter.

Thread closed?

Yeah, I think we're done here.

Thanks, everyone.

=R=
for the moderators