Considering a boycott

So . . . I was just at a high-end restaurant, meeting a friend for a Friday-night splurge after a particularly trying week. The place has a set menu and lets you choose between a 5-course and a 7-course meal. We opted for the 5-course, showed up on time for our reservation, and enjoyed a tasty dinner for the duration.

But here's the rub: We'd finished our dessert but clearly still had plenty of wine in our glasses. The server, mercifully unobtrusive for most of the meal, stopped over to say he had another table waiting and wondered if we could settle up so they could get seated. Wha?! Huh?!

I want to point out that I waited tables for several years and know the importance of turning over tables for take-home on any given evening. But never, and I mean never, did I nudge a party out of table, no matter how much they may have overstayed their welcome (just as a point of reference, we'd been there for approximately 2 hours for a 5-course meal at that point). I always felt like pacing was in the eye of the beholder, and as long as the customer felt they were entitled to the table, we should honor their right to enjoy it. I may have cursed them behind their backs, but I never would have rushed them out to their faces.

So . . . I just want to ask: Was the server appropriate, or did he step out of line? Should customers be expected to finish their meals and leave shortly thereafter, or is it fair for them to take some time to linger and digest? Because I have to admit: This was a major turn-off, one that made the place and their servers seem like opportunistic amateurs. I don't thing I could recommend the place in good faith at this point, no matter how good the food may have been.

I'd be interested in your feedback . . . I'm open to the possibility that my expectations are out of line, but I'd genuinely like to know others' perspectives as a way to manage expectations in the future.

Thanks,
christyp

out of line in my book. in a high-end restaurant like you describe, the customer should be permitted to linger and enjoy their wine and conversation without being made to feel unwelcome.

it's a shame that this was not handled more skilfully.

Wow -- that was really out of line. Most top restaurants assume you're going to linger, but even if one stayed a bit too long, they wouldn't directly tell you to get out.

I just came from my own Friday night splurge, and we were there for three hours, and the waiter acted as if he were disappointed we were going. And a chef I interviewed once for a story said he actually considered people lingering to be a sign that he had succeeded in making them feel welcome.

For a burger joint, it might be tolerable, but not at a high-end restaurant.

Rather than boycotting, however, you might want to touch base with management. They might be horrified and offer you, say, free wine on your next visit. I've only had a couple of really bad situations with wait staff over the decades, but I found that management was generally pleased to hear about it and remedied the situation.

Your expectations weren't out of line, the server was. What restaurant was it? Not that this server's actions were necessarily typical of the restaurant or represented the restaurant's policy, but when people praise a place I always want to know what the place is (praise isn't as useful without that information), and logically the same is true for criticism.

It wasn't by chance the same place where you complained about the server rushing you last time, was it? If so, while I wouldn't like being treated that way either, I wouldn't think they were all that out of line. The place is very small, and while the prices may be high-end, I wouldn't really call it a high-end place.

This is why I just avoid choosing popular restaurants for dinner on weekends.

ChristyP wrote:But here's the rub: We'd finished our dessert but clearly still had plenty of wine in our glasses. The server, mercifully unobtrusive for most of the meal, stopped over to say he had another table waiting and wondered if we could settle up so they could get seated. Wha?! Huh?!

No way was what that server did OK. talking about "settling up" is really crude. I would not return after an experience like that and would not consider it a "boycott;" just, there are too many other good places competing for your attention to risk hearing something like that again.

I am a little bit curious as to how long you were sitting there after finishing the last course. I ask because there are people who will sit with a drink next to them, looking like they have no intention of finishing it. We have one friend who, every time one of us is about to say, "OK, we're done, right?" takes another sip of her wine.

Kennyz, you've got an uncanny memory, clearly better than my own (I recalled service issues during my last visit, and deliberately avoided returning for a good long stretch, hoping staff turnover might take care of the problem. But I'd forgotten the particulars, and also forgotten that I posted about it here. And yes, I did contact the owner after that visit to express my concerns. I was ready to come in with a clean slate and open palate).

At any rate, I intentionally didn't mention the name of the restaurant, because I like the general vibe of the place and appreciate the skill of the chef. Sometimes there's a disconnect between the back-of-house philosophy and the front-of-house behavior, so I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But this clearly left a sour taste (apparently twice) -- a shame, because this is a special-occasion place, at least for me, right in my neighborhood, and the meal and company were otherwise lovely. I hate to end an experience like that on a bad note.

As for it being a 'high end' place, I guess that too is in the eye of the beholder. It's a tough economy and I work in the nonprofit sector, so a meal like this is the exception rather than the rule for me. It would've been nice, particularly when the kitchen set a nice, slow, easy pace for the meal, to have been allowed to finish the wine in our glasses without being rushed out the door. That said, whether service issues are chronic or whether I just happened to have two random episodes of rotten luck, it doesn't seem to be affecting the restaurant's business.

I certainly don't think the customer is always right, but I'd like to think that when you spend a decent chunk of change on a meal, that you can take the time -- within reason, of course (we were there about 10 minutes past dessert plates being cleared when we were asked to clear the table) -- to enjoy it. For what it's worth, I was at a similarly busy, but much more affordable spot earlier this week. My husband and I were connecting with old friends, and I can say we probably took up our table for longer than we probably should have. Not once were did we get the eye from the kitchen or a signal from the staff it might be time to go. When we left, they said how happy they were we enjoyed our meal and looked forward to seeing us next time. It's tough not to notice the contrast, and to rank one service model over the other.

I've always wondered what restaurants are supposed to do to deal with this sort of thing. At both Sprout and Green Zebra I've been seated extremely late due to a table lingering. These are both small restaurants. Nice, but not super high end. Now, they don't want to tick off the people at the table because who wants to be chased off after a nice meal. But, on the other hand, I'm standing there getting ticked off because I have a reservation and would like to sit down.

Looks like Bonsoiree found themselves dealing with that same situation. Sprout at least has a bar they could maybe send people to for an after dinner drink if they want to turn the table. Unfortunately, that's not an option at Bonsoiree (but, to be fair, they also can't send the waiting people to the bar and buy them a drink).

To the OP - how long were you at the table? At a place like Bonsoiree I don't think it's reasonable to assume that a table is your for the night (not saying you did assume this, but they also might not be figuring on 3 hours for a table of 2).

ChristyP wrote:Kennyz, you've got an uncanny memory, clearly better than my own .

Not really, but your description of the place in this thread sounded just like Bon Soiree, with the choice of 5-course and longer tasting menus. Again, I wouldn't enjoy this treatment either, but I wouldn't say they did anything terribly wrong or surprising. As a football coach once famously said about an opponent who just defeated him, "They are who we thought they were."

I guess, stylistically, I prefer a light touch: 'Can I get you anything else?' just before dropping the check and saying they'll take care of it whenever we're ready. This actually compels me to move along without making me feel I've been given the boot out the door. And it's true: there's nothing worse than waiting for a reservation because a table is taking their sweet time about closing out. I didn't feel our lingering was excessive, but these things can be relative.

It sort of gets me wondering: What is the appropriate amount of time for a 5-course meal, especially one with nice breathers in between (something I appreciate, and certainly appreciated last night), where dishes aren't being brought right on top of one another, and are being explained with a welcome degree of specificity as they're delivered? If it's around 8 minutes between courses, is it unreasonable to assume about 20 minutes per course for the actual consumption of the dish, even if the courses are small? Assume there is a bit of conversation and sipping of wine at each course as well. This would make the average amount of time for enjoying that meal to be just under 2.5 hours. (Feel free to disabuse me if I'm taking too many liberties with duration).

If that does seem reasonable, at what point is the restaurant being perfectly appropriate asking a table to vacate? It happened for us around the 145-minute mark. Was this excessive on our part? On theirs? I ask this because Josh's point is a fair one. But I'm genuinely curious: What is a reasonable amount of time per course at a restaurant known for inventive flavor combinations, unique dishes, and customer-driven wine pairing? When has the customer crossed a line between enjoyment and excess?

ChristyP wrote:If that does seem reasonable, at what point is the restaurant being perfectly appropriate asking a table to vacate? It happened for us around the 145-minute mark. Was this excessive on our part? On theirs? I ask this because Josh's point is a fair one. But I'm genuinely curious: What is a reasonable amount of time per course at a restaurant known for inventive flavor combinations, unique dishes, and customer-driven wine pairing? When has the customer crossed a line between enjoyment and excess?

I think it would be totally unreasonable to judge the customer based on total time for the meal because so much of that is not in the customer's control. However, if it's a long, multicourse meal, I suppose you could say you should get a little more leeway at the end. Overall I'd say it's the amount of time people are sitting after the last course has been cleared that gets servers antsy.

Another factor is if there is anyone standing around waiting - if all tables are full and there are people standing around, I'd be more likely to get up. If, however, there are other empty tables, or there's no wait, I'd feel no reason to hurry.

ChristyP wrote:But here's the rub: We'd finished our dessert but clearly still had plenty of wine in our glasses. The server, mercifully unobtrusive for most of the meal, stopped over to say he had another table waiting and wondered if we could settle up so they could get seated. Wha?! Huh?!

Now that my first question's been answered (Bonsoiree), I realize, going back to this original post, that I have another one. What did you do when the server said that? (Besides be nonplussed.) Did you settle up and get out? Or did you linger, for a period approximating the time you would have lingered had he not said anything?

Granted all the variables that have been mentioned that might have gone into such a decision, I think my inclination might have been to choose the latter option.

Speaking as a maitre d', my opinion is that the restaurant has the responsibility to tactfully hasten the departure of lingering guests only when they are in danger of losing the incoming reservation due to late seating.

Certainly there are ways to handle it other than using the phrase "settle up" (ick). After the check is dropped, if it's left untouched for a while, the manager (it should always be the manager or maitre d', never the server) can ask if assistance with the valet is required, if they can facilitate coat check, etc. The backwaiter should stop filling water glasses at a certain point and anything left on the table (mignardise, coffee service, etc.) can be cleared. Of course, some guests will remain willfully ignorant of the fact that they are staying past their welcome, especially in a restaurant with a separate bar or waiting area where they are not subject to the glares of guests who are being seated late or the host who is (unfortunately) taking the heat.

It is a toss-up between the lingering guests having a bad taste in their mouth because they were rushed out, and the party being seated late getting started on a bad note. Some guests are rigidly unforgiving of late seating and it can ruin the entire experience. And some guests freak out if they feel they are being rushed OTD. The restaurant has a responsibility to both parties.

As far as table turns and This Table Is Mine For the Night syndrome, you may assume that in all but the most high-end restaurants, if you book for any time before 8:00 PM (or even 8:30 in some cases), we expect to turn your table. In a white tablecloth place, when the guests are ordering a la carte, in general we slot 1.5 hours for a deuce, and 2.5 for anything bigger. The rule of thumb is to add an hour and a half for a tasting menu--but if you don't require advance notice of a tasting menu, and a table decides to do it on the fly, your whole book can be thrown off whack.

Christy, you were there as a party of 2 for just under 2.5 hours for a 5-course tasting menu. Not being familiar with the restaurant you were in, I have to say that we slot for about 3 hours for 10 courses where I work (for deuces). It sounds as if the restaurant was moving at your pace, sensed that you wanted to take things slowly, and then got themselves into hot water at the end.

It happens. Maybe try booking during an off-peak time so that you will not feel rushed at the end of your meal.

FWIW, I found your entire post to offer a valuable and reasonable perspective, Nero. (There's no point in my quoting any of it, because I'd just quote all of it.) My inclination to respond to the server's ill-considered way of handling the situation--by lingering just as long as I planned to linger--would be due largely to the server's rudeness. I'd feel, "I'll be damned if I'm going to reward this rudeness by yielding to it."

riddlemay wrote:FWIW, I found your entire post to offer a valuable and reasonable perspective, Nero. (There's no point in my quoting any of it, because I'd just quote all of it.) My inclination to respond to the server's ill-considered way of handling the situation--by lingering just as long as I planned to linger--would be due largely to the server's rudeness. I'd feel, "I'll be damned if I'm going to reward this rudeness by yielding to it."

Thank you. Not yielding is usually the response of guests when they feel we are rude to them--which of course we should never be. I try to remember that we're all humans, and that really, it's just dinner

My post refers to a restaurant that offers both a la carte and tasting menu formats. I am not sure what the rules for booking are in tasting menu only places. I would assume that the restaurant plans to turn tables on the 5 course and not on the 10. I know that's what they do at Le Colonial most of the time.

Just a few notes, and then I'll stop beating what's starting to feel like a dead horse (on my part, that is. Everyone else's perspectives have been *incredibly* useful, and I thank you for your insights).

We definitely didn't linger after we were asked to clear the table. We were taken aback, no question, so there were a few beats while we gathered our wits about us and figured out how to proceed gracefully. And of course there's the time required to figure out the tip, divide the check, gather our coats, etc. But once asked, we were essentially on our way.

If I'm being honest, I think the reason this incident bothered me is that it's embarrassing. A good meal, particularly one that takes its time, creates a kind of intimacy between restaurant and guest. (NeroW, you may be exactly right that they were pacing the meal in what they may have perceived from us. For my experience, though, it felt more like we were adapting to the kitchen's pacing, which felt wonderfully gradual after a week nothing short of a pressure cooker). When an incident like this happens, it damages that intimacy, putting some fairly cold distance between all parties, and even potentially between the dining companions themselves. You're absolutely right: It is just dinner, and I'm probably being a little grandiose with my metaphors, but it really did feel like a cold bucket of water tossed on an otherwise warm experience.

One other reason, I think, for my surprise is that when I called for the reservation, I was told we had a choice between 6pm or before, or 9pm or after. I took the 6pm, and I suspect this put in my mind the idea that they have two seatings a night, one at 6 and one at 9. I was very conscious of not staying beyond a time that would have allowed them to clear our table and make way for the 9pm seating. But we were asked to leave much earlier than that (as a point of reference, I live about 1.5 miles from the restaurant, walked my friend to the bus, biked home in the flurries, and was home before 9pm).

It sounds to me, once accounting for all vantage points, that we were probably just on the cusp of staying too long for our party size and menu. But since it wasn't egregious -- and since we were quiet, respectful, appreciative guests -- I'd like to hope that a server would find a more graceful way to encourage the transition.

ChristyP wrote:One other reason, I think, for my surprise is that when I called for the reservation, I was told we had a choice between 6pm or before, or 9pm or after. I took the 6pm, and I suspect this put in my mind the idea that they have two seatings a night, one at 6 and one at 9. I was very conscious of not staying beyond a time that would have allowed them to clear our table and make way for the 9pm seating. But we were asked to leave much earlier than that (as a point of reference, I live about 1.5 miles from the restaurant, walked my friend to the bus, biked home in the flurries, and was home before 9pm).

When you booked they may have simply offered you the slots they had available; I'm not certain, but I suspect that was the case. Otherwise them rushing you out before 9 PM for their second seating makes no sense. The words "my availability for two is 6 PM or earlier, or 9 PM or later" comes out of my mouth a thousand times a week and this allows me to keep my peak book (between 7 and 8:30) manageable.

EDIT: to say that most of us take disappointment on the guests' part quite seriously and would much prefer a call or an email to management to express that disappointment over losing a guest permanently. You're right in that there is a host-guest relationship that should not be taken with a grain of salt, and that while it's just dinner, it's still important. I am fairly certain the restaurant would probably prefer to hear from you as opposed to losing your business forever. Perhaps direct them to this thread!

I'm a fan of this restaurant so I am surprised by this, however, nobody has really mentioned that this is a BYOB, and a very tiny place. Still it's no reason for the waiter to ask you to get going. Putting the check down asking if there was anything else you needed should have been enough. Would you have picked up on this though? You said you still had wine to drink, and you had already finished dessert. I see both sides, but this restaurant is just not a place I linger.

nicinchic wrote:I'm a fan of this restaurant so I am surprised by this, however, nobody has really mentioned that this is a BYOB, and a very tiny place.

Although I agree that this could have been handled in a more graceful manner by the restaurant, that it is BYOB is kind of the point. One of the well-known pitfalls to owning a BYOB is that tables tend to flip less than at a place where people are paying for their alcohol AND the restaurant isn't making money off the alcohol to boot. I realize that Bonsoiree aims for a more "upscale" experience with their tasting menus, but the reality is that they lose money if they don't turn tables as the food is the only thing they're making money on.

ChristyP wrote:(we were there about 10 minutes past dessert plates being cleared when we were asked to clear the table)

1. Ten minutes is too soon to pull that.
2. When paying more for a meal from a high-end restaurant, just as one expects better quality food and expertise in its crafting from the back of the house, it's not asking too much to also expect a more proficient handle on tact from the front of the house.

A pacing-related post. (Although not one that rises to the level of boycott.)

This is why I won't go back to Spacca Napoli. We went there three times, and each time we were asked to leave after less than an hour because there were people waiting. Even on a Saturday when we were still drinking wine. Not as if we were not spending money. I found it very off putting and the reason we haven't been in more than a year.

trpt2345 wrote:This is why I won't go back to Spacca Napoli. We went there three times, and each time we were asked to leave after less than an hour because there were people waiting. Even on a Saturday when we were still drinking wine. Not as if we were not spending money. I found it very off putting and the reason we haven't been in more than a year.

Amazing. I would write a letter, send an email, or call the owner. I think he would be very surprised this happened. I talked to him about an issue my wife and I experienced a few years ago and he went out of his way to make it right.