JeffB wrote:

Steve Plotnicki wrote:But having said that, a simple request, like put the sauce on the side or don't make my meal too spicy, should be, and can be, easily honored by all restaurants.

And yet it is not so, thank God.

Actually it is so in 99.9% of the restaurants in the world which makes one wonder why the other .01% have such a hard time with the concept.

I know, the people who run them are schmucks. Could there be any other answer?

jpschust - I don't know what your dining experience is but, the Michelin 3-star experience is premised on the ask/demand concept you say doesn't exist. So not only does it exist, it is actually the model that the entire high-end restaurant industry is built on. That is why I go out of my way to point out restaurants that aren't with the program. They aren't providing their customers with the level of service they deserve.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:They aren't providing their customers with the level of service they deserve.

They aren't providing some of their customers with the level of service they desire.

It's not the same thing.

Unless, of course, you subscribe to the theory that the customer deserves everything he desires.

Do you deserve everything you desire, Steve?

Steve Plotnicki wrote:

JeffB wrote:

Steve Plotnicki wrote:But having said that, a simple request, like put the sauce on the side or don't make my meal too spicy, should be, and can be, easily honored by all restaurants.

And yet it is not so, thank God.

Actually it is so in 99.9% of the restaurants in the world which makes one wonder why the other .01% have such a hard time with the concept.

I know, the people who run them are schmucks. Could there be any other answer?

jpschust - I don't know what your dining experience is but, the Michelin 3-star experience is premised on the ask/demand concept you say doesn't exist. So not only does it exist, it is actually the model that the entire high-end restaurant industry is built on. That is why I go out of my way to point out restaurants that aren't with the program. They aren't providing their customers with the level of service they deserve.

Steve, you and I can very likely go toe to toe on high end and even Michelin 3-star restaurants. You want the relationship to be something other than what it actually is.

Of course they are, but what does that have to do with the service they are refusing to offer which they are supposed to offer the people who ask for something different.

I just I don't understand how you can argue against such a simple concept. When my wife and I go out to eat Szechan food and she asks for it to be medium hot, can you imagine if the restaurant refused and insisted she eat it super-hot because they decided their sliced fish soup in boiling oil was art? It doesn't make any sense.

JPschust - I am sure that we couldn't because indeed, the relationship you say I would like to have is the relationship I actually have with many of these restaurants, and I know many other people who have the same relationship. Just because you don't have it, don't project the dynamic of your own situation on the rest of us.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:Of course they are, but what does that have to do with the service they are refusing to offer which they are supposed to offer the people who ask for something different.

Since you've said that a restaurant should fulfill any request, and you've said that a high-end restaurant that doesn't do so isn't providing the service that the diner deserves (your word), what you're suggesting is that diners deserve everything they request. I'm trying to determine if that captures your opinion on the subject.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:I just I don't understand how you can argue against such a simple concept. When my wife and I go out to eat Szechan food and she asks for it to be medium hot, can you imagine if the restaurant refused and insisted she eat it super-hot because they decided their sliced fish soup in boiling oil was art? It doesn't make any sense.

I know, right? How could two people possibly disagree on what constitutes art? I bet nobody can find an example of that happening.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:JPschust - I am sure that we couldn't because indeed, the relationship you say I would like to have is the relationship I actually have with many of these restaurants, and I know many other people who have the same relationship. Just because you don't have it, don't project the dynamic of your own situation on the rest of us.

Next time you're in one of these venues with which you have this relationship, ask them to find the nearest cow, milk it, and make you some cheese on the spot. If it doesn't happen, I look forward to your explanation that JPschust wasn't right, it's that it wasn't actually a three Michelin-starred restaurant.

Steve, I think I am somewhat feeling your pain. I think what people are getting at here is that you have some sort of entitlement. I think easy substitutions shouldn't be an issue, and I get a bad taste in my mouth when they are immediately refuted. I get a much more pleasant taste when the server says we can absolutely do that for you.

Have you ever been to a Bobby Flay restaurant? I went to Bar Americain and asked for a very simple substitution of bacon instead of prosciutto, not liking ham. No way said the waitress, the chef has paired everything perfectly, and we cannot make any substitutions. No choices here. It was either order the dish with the very salty ham which I did, or order something else. I didn't want to make a scene at the restaurant, with the other three couples so I just went with it. What would you do in this case?

To be honest with you my $800 bill at Carnevino, pissed me way off more than not getting a substitution. There we ordered off the menu, a steak came out raw(ordered medium, no purple $54), had to be sent back, party of four, the steak eater had to sit and watch us eat, and the restaurant didn't bring the sides out hot for him (which they do at any decent steakhouse here in Chicago). After that, the waitress and staff just gave up on us. Coffee didn't come out with the dessert and so on. We did talk to the manger in this case, but he didn't really care, it's Vegas, eat, pay and get out was the attitude. Next time my money will got back to Joel Rubuchon. Not getting what is on the menu done perfectly outweighs my asking for something not on the menu and getting it done half assed.

I eat at a restaurant in my neighborhood called Bella Notte, at the bottom of their menu it says, Substitutions Welcome. I think this place would undestand please cook for me.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:

JeffB wrote:

Steve Plotnicki wrote:But having said that, a simple request, like put the sauce on the side or don't make my meal too spicy, should be, and can be, easily honored by all restaurants.

And yet it is not so, thank God.

Actually it is so in 99.9% of the restaurants in the world which makes one wonder why the other .01% have such a hard time with the concept.

I know, the people who run them are schmucks. Could there be any other answer?

Fallacious reasoning overhead. I eat at perhaps .001% of the restaurants; of that tiny subset, I assure you many are too stupid, schmucky or proud to make me a PB&J on Wonder Bread, even if I bring in all the ingredients, offer to pay top dollar, and ask them nicely. Yet, apparently they should and I'm the real schmuck for taking it. My next trip to the diner will go thusly, thanks to this thread:



If I'm willing to pay good money, why shouldn't someone have to hold the nuts?

Next time you're in one of these venues with which you have this relationship, ask them to find the nearest cow, milk it, and make you some cheese on the spot. If it doesn't happen, I look forward to your explanation that JPschust wasn't right, it's that it wasn't actually a three Michelin-starred restaurant.

To extend this idea, and to bring back the "open a carwash" line of thinking, I ask this:

Say you were entering a 3-star Michelin restaurant, and saw a water hose outside.

Knowing that they have soap in the back and the ability to wash your car, would you ask to have your car washed believing that they should fulfill the request which you know they're able to do?

Would you offer to pay inordinate amounts of money to have them wash your car, and when they refused would you consider that against them when it came time to write about the establishment?

Fact. Hamburgers and steaks aren't art. The closest you can get to a hamburger being art is the DB Burger as it is a composed dish. Toppings on a hamburger just don't rise to the level of being an actual culinary composition.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I get off.

"More great movies have been made from the novels of W.R. Burnett than the novels of Dostoevsky." —Åndrew Sarris.

Since I have work to do and I am scheduled for a lengthy massage in a bit over an hour, let me sign off this thread with the following post. In my opinion, the reason that the people here are so bent out of shape with what I am describing is that they are too insecure to demand this type of treatment for themselves when it comes to high end dining. Because I have to tell you, for every 10 people who react the way you guys react, 1-2 pop up out of the woodwork and thank me for showing them a way to eat better. In fact in the past, I have found that some of these people are reading these threads, and are afraid to comment because they don't want to be seen as having agreed with me in public so they contact me privately. But in my opinion, the position that most of you have taken works against your own best interests, and allows restaurants to continue to deprive diners of the treatment they are entitled to. If you feel otherwise you are certainly entitled. But there is no running away from the fact that you are taking a position which works against consumers.

nicinchic - Your story reminds of me of something that happened when my kids were very little and they would only eat pasta with butter. If there was anything with any sort of color on the plate, whether it be pepper or a stray basil leaf, they would push the food away. We were at Café Max in Ft. Lauderdale and we explained this in detail to our server, to no avail, because the pasta arrived with schmutz all over it. The server apologized, and she took the pasta back to the kitchen and placed a new order. Ten minutes later, new bowls arrived and they had the same problem. We tried to get the kids to eat but they wouldn't so we called her back and asked her to try again. A few minutes later the chef appeared at our table to find out what the problem was. We told him the situation, and he went on to tell us (in a non-friendly way,) that he has one chef working pastas and some other appetizer, and he has one pot that he makes pasta in, and since all of the pasta is cooked in the same pot, schmutz gets all over the water and there is nothing he can do about that. He went on to add that, in order to do what we were asking, he would have to instruct the chef to fire up a new pot of water, and they didn’t have time to do that. The end result was the kids didn’t eat and we had to take them to McDonald’s later.

Now I don’t know about boiling pots of water in your home, but in my house it takes about 10 seconds to put one on the stove. So what his refusal came down to is he simply didn’t want to do it. That makes him a bad restaurateur in my opinion and he should be called out for it. And I am sure your story about Bar Americain was the same. They simply didn’t want to do it. But I am certain that if you were a really important customer, they would bend over backwards to do whatever you asked them to do. I think that sucks.

Mike G. - But great omvies made from bad novels still rely on the highest level of cinematic technique. A hamburger does not rely on a high level of culinary technique. My mother could make a good one and she wasn’t a very good cook. M

Steve Plotnicki wrote:Since I have work to do and I am scheduled for a lengthy massage in a bit over an hour, let me sign off this thread with the following post. In my opinion, the reason that the people here are so bent out of shape with what I am describing is that they are too insecure to demand this type of treatment for themselves when it comes to high end dining.

Yes, Steve. The explanation couldn't possibly be that we're trying to be considerate, or that we have a differing opinion about what's practical and effective in maximizing our dining experience. It must be that we're insecure...

Steve Plotnicki wrote:But in my opinion, the position that most of you have taken works against your own best interests, and allows restaurants to continue to deprive diners of the treatment they are entitled to.

...but thank you for confirming that you believe diners are entitled to the kinds of requests you detail on your website.

If you have certain dietary needs or special requests such as a personalized tasting menu, why wouldn't one call ahead and have it set up? If they tell you they will not comply, then you cancel your reservation. If they tell you that they will comply and do not, then they screwed up and should make it right (or face the Plotnicki wrath).

Steve Plotnicki wrote:Because I have to tell you, for every 10 people who react the way you guys react, 1-2 pop up out of the woodwork and thank me for showing them a way to eat better.

Perhaps you should take that 10-20% for a nice trip to Guyana. Or establish a series of "true" full-service restaurants in the Sudetenland.

Dmnkly wrote:...but thank you for confirming that you believe diners are entitled to the kinds of requests you detail on your website.

But saying you are not entitled is just another way of saying you are too insecure to ask for it. Indeed, feeling entitled is at the heart of being secure enough to ask for it. So it's entitled in a good way as there is a quid pro quo: You are paying a lot of money for the treatment.

Okay I'm done. Got to run.

Santander wrote:Perhaps you should take that 10-20% for a nice trip to Guyana. Or establish a series of "true" full-service restaurants in the Sudetenland.

Totally unfair. Kennyz, this is for you, I suppose.

Steve's argument is when a customer who asks for what s/he wants, the good restaurant will try to accommodate. And we have a responsibility as consumers to work with restaurants to ensure that we and they are happy. This is what Danny Meyer specializes in his restaurants in New York.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:

Dmnkly wrote:...but thank you for confirming that you believe diners are entitled to the kinds of requests you detail on your website.

But saying you are not entitled is just another way of saying you are too insecure to ask for it.

Only if you actually are entitled to it.

If you walk up to Gary on the street and demand a thousand dollars from him because you believe you're entitled to it, and I say you shouldn't demand that of Gary because you're not entitled to his money, it does not mean that I'm too insecure to ask Gary for what I deserve from him. It means that I don't believe we're entitled to Gary's money.

Which is why I'm glad you confirmed that you believe you're entitled to the kinds of things you ask for, because it illustrates that this has nothing to do with insecurity, as much as you might like to think that we're all just poor rubes who don't have the stones to take what's theirs. It has to do with a fundamental disagreement -- in some of the situations you've written about, certainly not all -- about what you are and are not entitled to.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:Since I have work to do and I am scheduled for a lengthy massage in a bit over an hour

Finally this thread has a happy ending.

cilantro wrote:

Steve Plotnicki wrote:Since I have work to do and I am scheduled for a lengthy massage in a bit over an hour

Finally this thread has a happy ending.

Excellent! Cilantro, you win the thread

Steve Plotnicki wrote:Since I have work to do and I am scheduled for a lengthy massage in a bit over an hour, let me sign off this thread....

And on that note locked

Steve, see you next time someone chants Plotnicki three times.

eatchicago wrote:This is the same guy who once walked three blocks back to a McDonald's to return a plain hamburger because it had a pickle slice on it and he specifically requested "plain". "A pickle touched it. I wont't eat it. I'll walk back and they'll re-make it for me."

"By this point I had had it and I picked the dish up off of the table and held it out and said to the waitress, 'Take this back I don’t want to eat this.'"

Athena wrote:My bigger gripe is with someone refusing to even try something in the first place because they've already pre-decided they aren't going to like it. How can you tell unless you try at least one mouthful?

During what was definitely the best Korean BBQ experience of my life (being taken out as a guest in Seoul), I encountered what is clearly the most unpleasant food I've had in a while: raw tripe. Dipping it in the provided sesame oil provided some initial flavor, but after that it was just unpleasant and chewy. After extended and unproductive mastication, I decided to cut my losses and swallow.

During the same meal I encountered the one food in recent memory that I declined to even try: cubes of raw beef liver.

Sorry - call me a picky eater who's refusing even just one mouthful.

-Dan

dansch wrote:

eatchicago wrote:This is the same guy who once walked three blocks back to a McDonald's to return a plain hamburger because it had a pickle slice on it and he specifically requested "plain". "A pickle touched it. I wont't eat it. I'll walk back and they'll re-make it for me."

"By this point I had had it and I picked the dish up off of the table and held it out and said to the waitress, 'Take this back I don’t want to eat this.'"

I can't believe a guy that's this big of an asshole as the guts to call the chef out on schmuckiness.

Pie Lady wrote:I can't believe a guy that's this big of an asshole as the guts to call the chef out on schmuckiness.

If I had a restaurant, I'd post up a sign of this guy and tell my servers to throw him out immediately upon sight.

Why are you so anti-consumer?

Quite cunning to do the Plotnicki namecalling in this thread. It's got such an innocent title that it'll surely be awhile before the Mods notice. Once this one eventually gets locked, I propose the Happy Pi Day thread next.

I just read the Plotnicki v Bourdain thread. Hilarious and exhausting. On to L20.

Kennyz wrote:Quite cunning to do the Plotnicki namecalling in this thread. It's got such an innocent title that it'll surely be awhile before the Mods notice. Once this one eventually gets locked, I propose the Happy Pi Day thread next.

Ha. Ha. Ha.

***

I learned a new definition of hell. An enthusiatic eater married to a picky eater, who once had his freedom when he was out of her shadow. He has had a stroke and no longer drives, she is his faithful companion.

Unfortunately, she is there for every meal. When he wanted to order a spicy dish, she vetoed because it was too spicy. She had no plans to eat it. Yet she was ruling over his choice. I intentionally ordered something spicy to his preference. He ate a little of what she ordered, then ate a lot of what I ordered.

I know he is very taken care of, though I wish she would relax a bit when it comes to food he chooses for himself.

Regards,

As an aside to this amusing discussion, the "Schmuck's" restaurant is going out of business. From my understanding of the situation, it seems that his financial partners were losing too much money so they filed for bankruptucy. I believe the "Schmuck" bought the fixtures and what was remaining from the business in a bankruptcy sale, but it seems he couldn't make a go of it (too big a "Schmuck" possibly?) so he announced he is closing and is going to reopen at some unannounced location in 2011 (want to make a side bet on that one.) But just to show you that I'm not the type of person to hold a grudge, I went to eat at Comme Ca, which is the casual bistro the "Schmuck" owns when I was in L.A. two weeks ago and it was pretty good. Which goes to show you that the saying, "once a schmuck, always a schmuck," isn't always true.

Kennyz wrote:Quite cunning to do the Plotnicki namecalling in this thread. It's got such an innocent title that it'll surely be awhile before the Mods notice. Once this one eventually gets locked, I propose the Happy Pi Day thread next.

Yeah, why exactly is a locked thread being continued here?