Italian Dining Fundamentals

I'm Asian and grew up largely with Italian-American, so actual Italian dining is still relatively new to me. I was hoping the LTH brain trust could clear up a few misconceptions of mine.

Is it gauche to start with a salumi plate for the table in addition to individual salads for each person? I've seen them listed both separately, and together, and am never sure how it's meant to be ordered.

I get the antipasti==>primi==>secondi==>dolci progression, but if there's a separate pizza section on the menu (such as at Piccolo Sogno), is that counted as an alternate to pasta, or as another course in addition to the pasta? Where does risotto fit into the equation?

When dining in groups, is the pasta course meant to be an individual item - that is, everyone gets their own separate pasta course, or do you typically order a single pasta dish shared among the table? I typically hedge, and ordering a separate pasta for every two people.

If there is a contorni section, is that meant to be shared by the table, or individual as per the entree?

For some of this, I'm not sure there are hard and fast rules/etiquette, but here's my experience FWIW...

Generally speaking, in Italy, salads are served at the end of the meal, before desserts and coffee. Antipasti, like marinated vegetables and such, are up front and would be entirely appropriate alongside salumi and such. But actual leafy salads are kind of a light, final savory course.

I always thought of pizza as an alternate secondo. I can't imagine that being a typical amount of food for a primo. I don't know that there's a hard and fast rule there, but this is probably just a matter of ignorance on my part.

I don't recall encountering family-style pasta over a couple dozen trips, but my experience is by no means comprehensive. It was always individually ordered and plated.

I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen an exception, but certainly risotto is generally served as a primo.

Contorni... not sure if there's an implicit individual or shared purpose, but my recollection is that they're usually quite small, like a little side of something rather than a big plate of vegetables that you're going to share between everybody. I feel less confident in this answer than the others, though.

Dmnkly wrote:I always thought of pizza as an alternate secondo. I can't imagine that being a typical amount of food for a primo. I don't know that there's a hard and fast rule there, but this is probably just a matter of ignorance on my part.

I don't think you'd typically find pizza on the menu at a restaurant in Italy that also offers traditional primi and secondi. Pizza is served at pizza places, many but not all of which also have antipasti and desserts. If you're in an Italian restaurant in the states, and the menu has antipasti, secondi, salads, contorni and pizza, I don't think you have to worry about ordering in a way that keeps with Italian tradition. They're doing whatever they want, so I'd just follow suit and order whateever I felt like eating.

Regarding pasta, while I haven;t eaten at places in Italy that serve it family style, I've absolutely been encouraged by Italian natives to order a couple of pastas to share if the table's also ordering a big, filling meal. Even in very traditional restaurants, I don;t think anyone would bat an eyelash if diners decided to share a pasta or risotto course.

Kennyz wrote:I don't think you'd typically find pizza on the menu at a restaurant in Italy that also offers traditional primi and secondi. Pizza is served at pizza places, many but not all of which also have antipasti and desserts.

I've seen pizza alongside primi and secondi, but it's only been at very casual places where it's a little more freewheeling and I'm not sure anybody's following a more formalized structure, in which case it's kind of a moot point anyway, I suppose.

Kennyz wrote:Regarding pasta, while I haven;t eaten at places in Italy that serve it family style, I've absolutely been encouraged by Italian natives to order a couple of pastas to share if the table's also ordering a big, filling meal. Even in very traditional restaurants, I don;t think anyone would bat an eyelash if diners decided to share a pasta or risotto course.

Agreed. Though I haven't seen them served that way, I don't think you'd be committing a faux pas by doing so.

In Italy, restaurant portions of pasta (and, for that matter, of secondi) are restrained in order that they fit into the overall multi-course structure of the modern mainstream meal. Risotti, like pasta dishes and soups, are treated as primi. Normally, each diner orders a primo and a secondo but there are, of course, people in Italy who wish to eat less and will just order one or the other. As long as the table as a whole is ordering a reasonable amount of food, I doubt there would be any problem with some people ordering their own secondi but sharing fewer primi (or vice versa).

Pizza doesn't normally fit into that structure and so one has, I believe, leeway as to how one would want to consume it in the context of a group meal where others are eating a primo and secondo with contorno. As Kenny says, pizza tends to be eaten in pizzerie but there are nowadays restaurants that serve pizza as well as multi-course meal dishes, perhaps in response to the demands of and opportunities with tourists. Esp. in small towns, however, I've encountered non-tourist oriented places that double as pizzerie and restaurants, though I suspect that groups tend to approach meals there one way or the other -- that's how my relatives and I have done it in such situations.

Salad comes after the secondo and I must say that of all the American culinary habits that I cannot get used to, there is none so abidingly strange to me as the serving of salad at the start of a meal rather than at or toward the end (exceptions do exist but in general I find it objectionable).

Antonius

Antonius wrote:Salad comes after the secondo and I must say that of all the American culinary habits that I cannot get used to, there is none so abidingly strange to me as the serving of salad at the start of a meal rather than at or toward the end (exceptions do exist but in general I find it objectionable). Antonius

Full agreement with that objection -- and for some reason when I order salad, I'm always a little surprised and disappointed when it appears before the entree. It makes no physiological sense to serve salad at the beginning, and I have pondered why the greens are positioned first at most American restaurants. Could it be that Americans don't really like salad, but know they should eat it, so they stoically get it out of the way before they enjoy the good stuff. Or is the thinking that it's better to fill up on greens than bread? Or is it just easier for the kitchen to get the salads out there fast and give the customer something to chew on while the main course is prepared? Who knows...maybe it's just a convention that started for no good reason.

I have tried to get the salad at the end of the meal, but sometimes this seems to baffle servers, so my gambit is to take the salad at the beginning of the meal, munch a forkful, and save the rest off to the side for after dinner/before dessert.

Maybe I'm just an American sheep but I really don't find salad at the beginning of a meal to be all that strange and certainly not objectionable (especially in lieu of an appetizer).

I think it's nice to start a meal with something light...ceviche, crudo, oysters, whatever. Salad just falls into that category to me. Also, I think there are some salads that would be pretty clearly out of place following a meal (Caesar salad, the ubiquitous mixed greens/cheese/nut/fruit, etc.). If a salad is going to come after dinner, at least to me, it has to be of a certain type.

We serve the salad after the main course at home and often I'm "too full" to eat it. Funny though, I can manage to fit dessert in.

David Hammond wrote: so my gambit is to take the salad at the beginning of the meal, munch a forkful, and save the rest off to the side for after dinner/before dessert.

Whenever I try this, I spend the entire meal in an eye contact and hand gesture war with the busboy. The Head Drill Sergeant at Busboy Academy must have put the fear of God into these people concerning what plague will befall them if they fail to clear one course completely before the next course is served.

I once had it explained to me by a nutritionist that serving salad at the beginning of the meal leads to indigestion in some cases because the roughage of the greens clears away the beneficial bacteria in the digestive tract. That was the reason given as to why Europeans prefer their salad at the end of the meal. I found it a reasonable explanation.

David Hammond wrote:I have tried to get the salad at the end of the meal, but sometimes this seems to baffle servers, so my gambit is to take the salad at the beginning of the meal, munch a forkful, and save the rest off to the side for after dinner/before dessert.

David -- I've had that problem as well and have also resorted to your solution, though one must be vigilant that the server or bus-boy not grab the salad and take it off to the dumpster...

jesteinf -- I certainly didn't intend my comment to be a general crititque or snotty put-down of the practice of salad first. Rather, it is an observation regarding cultural difference. I grew up always eating meals at home in the Italian manner and that is for me normal. After the better part of a lifetime of being exposed to the American way in restaurants and at friends' homes, that American way remains foreign and (personally) objectionable, though I am capable of 'dealing' with it.

I have, however, heard that the salad coming after the main course somehow is preferable with regard to the mechanics of digestion -- about the science or pseudo-science behind that, I have no opinion. But like DH, I have aesthetic reasons for preferring salad toward the end of the meal which happily support and confirm my inherited cultural prejudices.

A

stevez wrote:I once had it explained to me by a nutritionist that serving salad at the beginning of the meal leads to indigestion in some cases because the roughage of the greens clears away the beneficial bacteria in the digestive tract. That was the reason given as to why Europeans prefer their salad at the end of the meal. I found it a reasonable explanation.

steve -- I think I've heard that the greens at the end also help move things along, as it were... Since the scientific arguments agree with my aesthetic reasons and my cultural prejudices, I must be right in preferring it after!

A

"If there is a contorni section, is that meant to be shared by the table, or individual as per the entree?"

I think the assumption or basic way is that each diner orders a contorno that complements the secondo he or she has ordered, if he or she so desires. But again, if a group of diners wishes to order fewer or more than one per person and share them, I can't imagine anyone looking askance at that.

A

Some eating cultures call for salad to be served alongside mains, or as part of a course of several small plates (mezze).

I, for one, cannot imagine eating kabobs or roast meats without a side of something fresh, sour, herbal, vegetal - i.e. salad. To me, there is no greater pleasure than spooning chopped cucumber, tomato and parseley on top of rice as a side to kofta or grilled chicken.

Similarly, even the most perfunctory street kababist in Egypt will serve a plate or plastic bag of chopped salad to be eaten alongside grilled meats and bread. Not before, not after, during.

While I didn't encounter many (or any) composed "salads" in India, all of the kabobs I ate came with at least a side of marinated onions, or sliced cucumbers and of course, chutney. In Northern Indian Kabob Cuisine (tm), a side of chutney/raita is de rigeur, and serves the same sour, fresh, herby purpose as does salad in the Arab Kabob context.

For the western style meals I grow up with in Chicago, we often served salad as a side to the main dish. If I couldn't combine my salad with the main in a meaningful way, I always preferred to eat it after I finished the spaghetti or whatever it was we were having.

My first experience eating salad post-meal was at a French/Romanian friend's home in Chicago. I thought it was pretty classy for some reason.

Habibi -- In a number of instances, I too like to have the salad alongside the main dish and most especially when the main dish is a roasted meat. As you say, the contrast of cool (and typically tartly dressed) salad and roasted meat is especially pleasing. And both of those are perfectly complemented by bread, the three together forming a trio that is impossible to beat. Along similar lines, I came in the course of my years of living in Belgium to love the combination of a pan-fried steak, frits and a nice little salad-like accompaniment, of which my favourite is probably water-cress. Some other fried main dishes are also nice to have with salad alongside...

For the most part, eating an Italian meal, I make the salad available with the secondo and leave it to the individual when exactly to partake thereof... (the presence or absence of vegetable contorni alongside a protein being a factor too -- with vegetables served, salad is more likely to stand on its own after the secondo is finished)...

Again, this is no put-down of American salad-first practice but simply an observation of cultural difference. However, I find Italian restaurants in the States, esp. ones with pretentions about 'authenticity', which serve the salad first... how shall I say... disappointing...

A

Growing up with a Sicilian mother in a lower middle class family during the 50's, salad was served with every evening meal. a bowl of salad was on the table during the meal and was for the most part eaten after the the main meal. The salad was always dressed with V&O. I never heard of "salad dressing" until I went to a restaurant which wasn't until my mid teens.

1. Salads often show up as an entree in French restaurants, although these can often be a little more elaborate than a typical green salad (if I recall correctly from a visit to Lyons many years ago, the salades lyonnaises were all offered as entrees, at least for dinner). In any case, here's a menu from Chartier one of the more traditional restaurants in Paris:
http://www.restaurant-chartier.com/www/visit/atable.php

2. In Naples restaurants/pizzerias often offer pizzas with their regular fare (e.g., Ciro's), or vice versa (e.g., Lombardi's). Like in the U.S. pizzas are usually presented there on the menu as a separate entity and can be ordered, I suppose, either as a primo or secondi. Here's Ciro's menu, for instance:
http://www.ciroamergellina.it/prodotti_it.htm

With perhaps the exception of very high-end or prix fixe restaurants, I've found dining to be pretty informal in Italy, and you can do/order pretty much whatever you want and however you want it without eliciting anything more serious than a shrug or a raised eyebrow from your server. (We once walked into a fairly high-end restaurant in one of the smaller cities, late without a reservation, and were told fairly explicitly that we had to order a complete meal or nothing by the English-speaking staff, and although our antipasto/primo/secondo/dolce meal was very good, we realized by the end that we appeared to be the only ones in the entire restaurant who had followed that course.)