I think that the reason that it can be off-putting is that, for better or worse, naked female breasts are not something that one normally sees in public places. I dont think that many people are uncomfortable with the concept of the baby eating, it is more the concept of public nudity, no matter how justified. That is why a bit of discretion is called for. There are lots of things available for nursing mothers to use to be discreet. It is just a matter of common courtesy.

A courtesy which appears to be being commonly exercised, since NO ONE has yet cited an actual incident where something like this has happened, despite all the indignation and horror expressed here.

I think someone once said something along the lines that, etiquette is taking into account others' feelings even when you disagree with them.

like, for instance, taking the feelings of nursing mothers into account when you see them nurse in public?

etiquette's a two-way street. why don't you try walking a mile in their shoes before passing judgment? being a new mother is hard. they're often sleep-deprived, and overwhelmed (especially first-time moms), and maybe eating out is a real treat for them at that moment. sometimes people forget to pack an extra blanket in the diaper bag. cut'em some slack, as your definition of etiquette above would dictate. or, as someone else pointed out, if you see something that you find displeasing while eating, simply look away.


and, while it's true that bare breasts are something we're not used to seeing every day, i fail to understand why that would mean people would be made uncomfortable or offended by the sight of them.

and, if they find themselves uncomfortable or offended, why they believe the acceptable solution would be for the object of their discomfort or offense to be forcibly removed from their field of vision, or, in other words, it's someone else's responsibility to fix what is your problem.

The analogies to ugly people or people with acne, etc. are faulty -- there are things you can help and things you can't help.

and this i simply don't understand either. breastfeeding is something that can be "helped"? it's optional? is that what you're saying?

or that the breastfeeding happens in front of you is what can be helped? because ugly people and the acne-inflicted can be made to go elsewhere just as easy as the breastfeeders can be. there are acne creams and medicines. masks. paper bags. where do you draw the line between something that can be "helped" and something that can't be?

i'm grossed out by noisy-chewers and people whose noses whistle while they're eating. those things can be "helped", but i recognize that these are my personal pet peeves and don't expect these offenders to pander to my personal likes and dislikes. sure, they annoy me, but they have just as much right to take up space in a restaurant as i do.

really, how far must all of us imperfect members of society bend over backwards to avoid offending you or making you uncomfortable? isn't it ultimately *your* responsibility to fend for yourself?

everyone here is speaking of "etiquette" and "consideration", but these are hazily-defined very objective concepts. if you get down to it, i'd say that those things essentially hinge on the concept of "do unto others" and so if a woman wouldn't herself be offended by the sight of someone breastfeeding, then is it really reasonable to expect that she should inconvenience herself to shield others from it?

elakin wrote:and, while it's true that bare breasts are something we're not used to seeing every day, i fail to understand why that would mean people would be made uncomfortable or offended by the sight of them.

I don't mind if they flash their breasts in public if they don't mind me staring at them. I find it impossible to look away.

Mike G wrote:

I think that the reason that it can be off-putting is that, for better or worse, naked female breasts are not something that one normally sees in public places. I dont think that many people are uncomfortable with the concept of the baby eating, it is more the concept of public nudity, no matter how justified. That is why a bit of discretion is called for. There are lots of things available for nursing mothers to use to be discreet. It is just a matter of common courtesy.

A courtesy which appears to be being commonly exercised, since NO ONE has yet cited an actual incident where something like this has happened, despite all the indignation and horror expressed here.

I wouldn't describe it as a horror and I will cite an incident, although a while ago. My wife, then girlfriend, were eating at Hillary's Urban Eatery on Division and at the table next to us, a mother pulled her shirt up, exposing herself to the restaurant, and started to nurse her 3-4 year old child.

Now, I will say this again - although it does NOT offend me personally, it was a little shocking to see. Shocking, because I had never seen it before and you don't expect to see that while eating a Mexican omelet on Sunday afternoon in public. Although we went about our business, my wife commented on how the mother could have used a little more tact, knowing that there were other families around with children watching. We could see other diners whispering as well and some moving their childrens' chairs so to not be in plain view.

Perceived right or wrong, the other diners were distracted and families forced to react. We weren't offended but seeing how some of the other people around us reacted, it made an impression on me. We have a baby and like I said, my wife nursed and didn't run into the issue that our baby had to be fed right then and there at the table.

Again, the point isn't about nursing or letting a baby eat; it's more about perceived table side manners that obviously aren't shared by everyone here. It's a judgment call, if you don't care how others perceive you, go ahead and don't concern yourself with the stares or remarks you may encounter. It's a hot enough topic that we had to make a law so how do you not expect a lively conversation?

Although we went about our business, my wife commented on how the mother could have used a little more tact, knowing that there were other families around with children watching. We could see other diners whispering as well and some moving their childrens' chairs so to not be in plain view.

Not being a parent myself, I have a policy to not judge other people's parenting so I believe the parents in this example have every right to shield their children from something they don't think they should see. But I recall being at a workshop and reading some articles that point out that there is no research that suggests that seeing a naked breast is in anyway damaging to a child. Again, I fully respect every parent's right to decide what's appropriate for their child to see, but it's just interesting to think about what we think children should be shielded from.

I will never forget the time I was in the IKEA restroom with Sparky (then about two and a half or three) and he spied a mother nursing her baby in the nursing area, and promptly screamed in horror: "Mommy what is that baby DOING to that LADY!?!" Keep in mind he was breastfed himself for 13 months (yes, sometimes in public, as discreetly as possible, when occasion warranted.) These days, enough of his buddies have baby sisters or brothers that he's used to it.

WillG wrote:I think that the reason that it can be off-putting is that, for better or worse, naked female breasts are not something that one normally sees in public places. I dont think that many people are uncomfortable with the concept of the baby eating, it is more the concept of public nudity, no matter how justified. That is why a bit of discretion is called for. There are lots of things available for nursing mothers to use to be discreet. It is just a matter of common courtesy.

-Will

Huh? Every time I've dined at places like Gibsons or SushiSamba I've seen the nearly naked breasts of my fellow female patrons. In fact it seems that the hipper the establishment the more daring the displays of female decollete. Nevermind all of the magazine covers I see staring back at me as I wait in line at the grocery stores, or so many of the window displays of the shops on Michigan Avenue, and don't get me started on what's shown on a daily basis on television and in movies.

Frankly, I think people get uncomfortable around public breastfeeding because the baring of the female breast is not being done in the sexual manner to which we've become so accustomed in our culture. Breastfeeding is so completely not sexual, and that freaks people out. The thing with courtesy is that it's a two way street, gawking at a nursing mother is far more likely to make her feel like she needs to take a stand, but acting as though she is doing something to which she has the legal right to do (and Illinois law does back that up) is likely to result in minimal drama for all patrons.

By the way, it isn't always easy to nurse a baby under a cover (I speak from experience on this,) mine always fought having something on top of them when they were eating and always ended up puking all over me because of their upsetment. I've had plenty of public breastfeeding experiences that were done sans cover but still discreetly enough that others at the table or in the room didn't even realize what was going on until I was actually done feeding the baby. Perhaps, if they had been on hyperalert waiting to catch me, my dining companions might have become aware sooner but thankfully my friends tend to be more gracious than that.

SMT wrote:Huh? Every time I've dined at places like Gibsons or SushiSamba I've seen the nearly naked breasts of my fellow female patrons. In fact it seems that the hipper the establishment the more daring the displays of female decollete. Nevermind all of the magazine covers I see staring back at me as I wait in line at the grocery stores, or so many of the window displays of the shops on Michigan Avenue, and don't get me started on what's shown on a daily basis on television and in movies.

Frankly, I think people get uncomfortable around public breastfeeding because the baring of the female breast is not being done in the sexual manner to which we've become so accustomed in our culture. Breastfeeding is so completely not sexual, and that freaks people out. The thing with courtesy is that it's a two way street, gawking at a nursing mother is far more likely to make her feel like she needs to take a stand, but acting as though she is doing something to which she has the legal right to do (and Illinois law does back that up) is likely to result in minimal drama for all patrons.

This is spot on. There was a funny essay on the now-defunct Hissyfit.com about the annoyances a new mom ran into while breastfeeding. Her point was, this is a food breast, not a sex breast, and if you can't tell the difference that's not my problem.

Hellodali wrote:Not being a parent myself, I have a policy to not judge other people's parenting so I believe the parents in this example have every right to shield their children from something they don't think they should see. But I recall being at a workshop and reading some articles that point out that there is no research that suggests that seeing a naked breast is in anyway damaging to a child. Again, I fully respect every parent's right to decide what's appropriate for their child to see, but it's just interesting to think about what we think children should be shielded from.

I find this kind of thing rather perplexing myself. It's just a body part, being used for its intended purpose; what's the big deal?

Is this really such a large problem (my God...exposed breasts everywhere!)?

I spend a fair amount of time out in public (restaurants included) and I have never seen a woman breastfeeding. Then again, I do try to avoid places that might have large concentrations of potentially breastfeeding children and their breeders ( ).

Hilary's was just the sort of place where I would expect this sort of debauchery to be carried on.

Someone I know who has had both babies and breasts, often simultaneously, tells me that when she was at a law firm and attempting to pump milk in her office, no matter what warning note she placed on her door (BREASTS INSIDE!!! DO NOT ENTER!!!), clueless male partners would walk right in and then be horrified to witness the strange mechanized sex act taking place inside. So she successfully petitioned to have some closet designated as the official pumping room... and a few weeks later there were complaints that male partners were being made uncomfortable by the sound of pumping going on inside as they walked down the hall, and wanted the designation removed.

That's one reason my sympathy is much more with breastfeeding women than with those strange people who get freaked out by it.

Mike G wrote:Hilary's was just the sort of place where I would expect this sort of debauchery to be carried on.

Someone I know who has had both babies and breasts, often simultaneously, tells me that when she was at a law firm and attempting to pump milk in her office, no matter what warning note she placed on her door (BREASTS INSIDE!!! DO NOT ENTER!!!), clueless male partners would walk right in and then be horrified to witness the strange mechanized sex act taking place inside. So she successfully petitioned to have some closet designated as the official pumping room... and a few weeks later there were complaints that male partners were being made uncomfortable by the sound of pumping going on inside as they walked down the hall, and wanted the designation removed.

That's one reason my sympathy is much more with breastfeeding women than with those strange people who get freaked out by it.

I think pumping rooms are a law now.

They were a law then, and it still took someone fighting for one (in a "progressive" law firm) to get one established, and to keep it from being removed once she personally was done with it.

Frankly, I think people get uncomfortable around public breastfeeding because the baring of the female breast is not being done in the sexual manner to which we've become so accustomed in our culture. Breastfeeding is so completely not sexual, and that freaks people out.

i think you pretty much nailed it with that one.

and i'd say that people that are freaked out by that shouldn't ask others to inconvenience themselves so as to minimize their discomfort. your freakout, your problem.

in other words; get over it.

Michael Jordan nursed till he was 4. (Or so my husband told me when I was so tired of nursing as we approached 2 with my first son.) Einstein nursed until he was 3. Or maybe I've got those stats flipped. Don't quote me on them but my husband told me these stats repeatedly and they helped me along when I grew really tired of nursing. Oh that's tight, those of who are advocates are also real and know how exhausting it can be. And difficult in public places, or heck at your in-Laws. (Still nursing, are you? served with an arched eyebrow . . . )

A few posters are getting all "I am not used to seeing boobs in public" and I am scratching my head, have you not seen the windows at Victoria's Secret or any other clothing company catalogue? Or any ad in any magazine? I mean, if we are going to get all squeamish and specific and righteous, are you really seeing NIPPLES of these nursing moms or just lots of fleshy boob action for like 3 seconds? Are you freaked out by a woman lifting her shirt or are you upset by a woman lifting her shirt to nurse a toddler?

The only reason they came up with the (silly) "laws" allowing women to nurse in public (in a few states) is because squeamish people with no tolerance for nursing were making nursing women leave places such as YWCAs (hello!) and restaurants and that sort of thing. If you can't nurse a hungry baby while your other one learns to swim or you are all trying to enjoy a bowl of soup, then we really are all just mixed up. Because you see, nursing a child is about responding to his or her needs and not ignoring them or being self-indulgent or sloppy. Yes, discretion does goes a long way, but some babies freak on being covered up. But please do not compare me feeding my child with the picking of noses, farting, that sort of thing. I am feeding my child. I am doing nothing wrong. If I stood between you and your coffee maker at 6 am when you were bleary eyed and in need of a little caffeine and I tsked-tsked you for being obnoxious and gross and inappropriate and told you to just go to the bathroom and do something else, you know just get whatever you need somewhere else, anywhere but here. how would you feel? It's just coffee. Right? Yeah well, it's just milk.
There's nothing to be ashamed of.

bjt

elakin wrote:and i'd say that people that are freaked out by that shouldn't ask others to inconvenience themselves so as to minimize their discomfort. your freakout, your problem.

in other words; get over it.

dollbabytina wrote:It's not that the mother is wrong, or other uncomfortable diners are wrong. Everyone is entitled to determine his or her level of comfort with the subject, but should also realize that the other's perspective is neither right nor wrong, it's just different. you don't change people's minds by forcing them to accept your choices, so telling me to "get over it" doesn't really work for me.

Me either.

And, at the risk of derailing a conversation that appears to be headed nowhere fast, is it possible to just agree to disagree on this? It doesn't seem likely that this discussion is likely to change any minds and it seems we're straying from "other culinary chat." Not that the topic isn't a worthy one, but that LTH seems the wrong forum for in-depth discussions of etiquette.

If you get uncomfortable watching other people eat, don't go to a restaurant.

dollbabytina wrote:
It's not that the mother is wrong, or other uncomfortable diners are wrong. Everyone is entitled to determine his or her level of comfort with the subject, but should also realize that the other's perspective is neither right nor wrong, it's just different. you don't change people's minds by forcing them to accept your choices, so telling me to "get over it" doesn't really work for me.

Me either.

ok, but see, the thing is that agreeing to disagree doesn't really work here. mothers still are going to need to nurse in public sometimes, and some people are still going to not want to be confronted with it. how can they agree to disagree?

the offended people want the mothers to go elsewhere. the mothers don't want to. how can they agree to disagree?

no one's saying that one party or the other is "wrong" (i don't think). what i've been saying is that the offended folks don't have the right to require the nursing moms to go to any trouble so as to shield them from seeing something they don't like.

they can be offended all they want. they just don't have the right to get all huffy and proclaim the nursing moms to be "rude" or "inconsiderate" for failing to shield them from the nursing.

i would venture to say that the Subject title term 'breeders', as well-intentioned parody or otherwise, perhaps led inevitably to people taking pretty much a little thing and getting somewhat testy and taking these (not too common) incidents personally. It just seems and sounds like a smarmy and snidely divisive word on its face. Not to accuse by any means the OP. I got it.

elakin wrote:ok, but see, the thing is that agreeing to disagree doesn't really work here. mothers still are going to need to nurse in public sometimes, and some people are still going to not want to be confronted with it. how can they agree to disagree?

the offended people want the mothers to go elsewhere. the mothers don't want to. how can they agree to disagree?

Well, first of all, my comment was directed to posters in this thread who are disagreeing about how they believe this should be "handled" or, indeed, if "handling" is required. So my comment was an observations that neither "side" seemed likely to convince the other based on the multiple pages of commentary going back and forth. I wasn't suggesting that the subjects of the disagreement--the nursing mothers and those disturbed by it--agree to disagree.

That said, unless one side actually comments/confronts the other, that is in fact precisely what they are doing. They are all comporting themselves according to their own standards of behavior. They are, in fact, agreeing to disagree.

And now, I fear, I have contributed to getting us even father afield.

So, what's the weather like these days in Philly?

Does anyone know what the law actually is? Can a restaurant toss a woman out for breast-feeding in a repulsive way?

Gypsy Boy wrote:That said, unless one side actually comments/confronts the other, that is in fact precisely what they are doing. They are all comporting themselves according to their own standards of behavior. They are, in fact, agreeing to disagree.

sort of like a tit for tat.

Sorry, I find this thread hilarious. I'm milking it for all it's worth.

50 State Summary of Breastfeeding Laws
La Leche League was founded in Franklin Park, Illinois: Illinois is stalwart in its support of breastfeeding mothers.

I'm with Gypsy Boy - can we be done now? The nuts and bolts are that mothers have the law on their side, and that you don't have to like it any more than any other law, but that's the way it is. As somebody who's done it and understands that sometimes it isn't easy to be discreet, my sympathies are with the Moms - YMMV. It may (or may not) be helpful to know that there are consequences to keeping baby waiting for a more convenient time to eat, for both mother and baby - especially if you're trying to avoid some of the things mentioned earlier in the thread.

Kenny, you are pure evil.

My feeling about breast-feeding in restaurants is that if you don't bring enough to share with everyone, you shouldn't be allowed to do it.

=R=

ronnie_suburban wrote:My feeling about breast-feeding in restaurants is that if you don't bring enough to share with everyone, you shouldn't be allowed to do it.

=R=

ahahahaahaaa

I always wondered what it tasted like. Doesn't it have something to do with what you eat, so if I were to have a kid it would taste like chocolate and bacon? The milk, I mean, not the baby.

Ronnie....you are just a sassy man aren't you?

My feeling about breast-feeding in restaurants is that if you don't bring enough to share with everyone, you shouldn't be allowed to do it.

i've always wondered if the restaurant could, if they wanted, invoke the 'no outside food permitted' rule. "sorry, but the kid's gotta order off the menu just like everyone else".

What's always stuck in my memory about etiquette is a quote from one of the famous names in the area, Miss Manners or someone like her. Whoever it was, she said, the essence of etiquette is to make every effort to avoid making others uncomfortable.

That being the rule I go by, I would not breastfeed a baby in a public setting, on the chance that it would make someone nearby uncomfortable. But that's just me; everyone's got their own ideas about what's polite and what's not.

how would that rule apply to, say, african-americans or gay people whose very presence has historically made some people uncomfortable?