Any chance to get this thread off breast feeding, and back onto children in restaurants? Honestly, I believe that people have been in restuarants with far more breast feeding children than they ever knew. Mostly it is done discreetly. I know I can name 100 annoying things I have witnessed in a restaurant for every one time I have even noticed a breast feeding baby.

Suzy Creamcheese wrote: I've often batted around the notion that having a dog is a gateway drug for parenthood - you have to take care of the dog, feed it, love it, and take care of its elimination needs no matter how sick, tired, or stressed you are. Am I deluded?

As a 7 year old dog owner and the father to 3 year old twins, I used to think this as well. However, I can tell you that dog ownership is a gateway drug to parenthood the same way that tobacco is to heroin use. The arguement can be made, but it is a stretch.

And to draw one more analogy, young kids are a lot like BBQ joints. Due to many variables you can catch a great one at a bad time. It is always better to give them the benefit of the doubt on the first encounter. A smile will definately go a long way to destress the parent, and child.

MelT wrote:Any chance to get this thread off breast feeding, and back onto children in restaurants? Honestly, I believe that people have been in restuarants with far more breast feeding children than they ever knew. Mostly it is done discreetly. I know I can name 100 annoying things I have witnessed in a restaurant for every one time I have even noticed a breast feeding baby.

Agreed.

Folks, it's time to move on. The discussion is spiraling into a vortex, with the posts becoming more and more tangential.

Please, let's get back to discussing babies in restaurants and place the micro-debate about nursing and related sub-issues in the 'agree to disagree' category.

Thanks,

=R=
for the moderators

MelT wrote:And to draw one more analogy, young kids are a lot like BBQ joints. Due to many variables you can catch a great one at a bad time. It is always better to give them the benefit of the doubt on the first encounter.

Very well put.

maureencd wrote:We take our son out to restaurants all the time, but we've had to ask for the check & hustle him out on more than one occasion. Nobody wants to listen to a screaming child when they're out to dinner. I'm with most of the posters, in that I think that taking a child to a restaurant is an excellent way to help him evolve from a nasty little animal into a civilized little man. That being said, if you're going to do it, you have to be willing to get up and leave at any time. Also, I think that it's only appropriate to pick up after the kid. .

waitstaff of the world salute you!

If only our children could all attend French preschools, where two-year olds are served home-cooked three-course meals every day and are taught to use their silverware, sit up straight at the table, and not leave until all are finished!

Except for the meals having three courses, I suspect you've met my mom.

I'm with most of the posters, in that I think that taking a child to a restaurant is an excellent way to help him evolve from a nasty little animal into a civilized little man.

I do not agree here. When I was a kid, my parents took me and my brother out to dinner all the time and every meal ended with my mom saying, "This will be the last time I take you kids anywhere." This is actually still a standing joke between my mom, brother and I. As kids, to hear that, it became sort of fun to act up and see who we could piss off. But then again, I'm not like any other kids, I feel like I'm more eccentric.

I've been very silent on this topic-
Having raised my kids in two "groups"
they are separated by nearly 7 yrs-

The older one (a girl) went to zillions of restaurants and behaved beautifully nearly all the time, perhaps because she had the attention and positive reinforcement of at least 2 adults nearly all the time.

The younger two (boys) went a few times as mute infants, but then there was a long stretch when they just weren't fit company, unless we were forced to have them out at a restaurant, like when traveling, perhaps because we were outnumbered...
or maybe because they were boys.
There were many many occasions where I remembering packing up the dinner "to go" and just bailing on the eating out part, because someone wasn't behaving up to snuff, and I just would NOT subject other diners/waitstaff to their behavioral fireworks....
not to mention it made for a very NOT enjoyable meal.

When they got to be about 6 or 7 they became sensible humans who could listen somewhat, and now are OK to take out, except we can't afford their tastes...

The other day at lunch one ordered a lamb shank, and the other quail!
It made me think of Lucas Suburban, who is in their school-
maybe it's something in the water....?

From the 2009 James Beard nominated article No Appetite for Noise:

Parents often seek out loud restaurants... "I can dine out with my infant and never get dirty looks for the occasional squawk or utensil banging," one mom explained during an online chat.

This is a good guideline for parents who want to bring their children to restaurants frequented by those who may not be kind to breeders: seek "warehouse" type places with lots of hard surfaces and preferably a decible level around 80 (but don't stay too long you could permanently damage your hearing).

lil' AS is now almost 14 months old. I could not make her quiet if I wanted to do so.

So restaurants are trouble nowadays. Last weekend she did ok in Portillo's. She managed in Marie's. But a meal with her is not as enjoyable because she needs constant attention so I will not waste my money on a nice place - and it would be rude to the other diners.

I would bring her to Kuma's, but one can never get in there anymore so that is out.

just wait for the "terrible 2's" phase(I dont think I have heard the word "no" this much in my life).

We have resigned ourselves to family friendly restaurants(chinese, etc) only nowdays(our daughter is about 2.5 y.o.). Or a rare meal out for me and my wife only at places that may not be that "kid friendly".

jimswside wrote:just wait for the "terrible 2's" phase(I dont think I have heard the word "no" this much in my life).

Ditto.
Ditto.

(X2 in deference to twin boys also in the 2.5 year range)

Coming (relatively) soon to a restaurant near you, EatChicago!

DeathByOrca wrote:
Ditto.
Ditto.

(X2 in deference to twin boys also in the 2.5 year range)

yikes...

but I'd have to guess you wouldnt trade it for anything in the world, just like I wouldnt.

jimswside wrote:but I'd have to guess you wouldnt trade it for anything in the world, just like I wouldnt.

You'd of course be exactly right!

On a trip earlier this week to see out of town friends we had the opportunity to dine out for the first time with our nearly 6 week old bundle of joy.

Walking around downtown Naperville for a while in the suprisingly nice weather we thought La Sorella Di Francesca looked like a nice space. After checking with the management 4 of us and the baby were sat by the window in the corner and we had at it.

I was initially worried about the noise of the space as the restaurant was close to full but the baby paid no mind and actually slept or was quiet the entire time. I was planning on spending at least some portion of the meal outside with the baby but he was as happy as could be the entire time, nearly two hours.

While I wish I could say the food was as enjoyable as the space or the company it was actually pretty disappointing and would have been a negative if it had been priced more inline with the city Mia Francesca outposts.

Despite asking if the caprese salad which was listed as included "fresh" mozzarella was made with buffalo mozzarella and being told it was the salad arrived with a pretty mediocre commercial cows milk mozzarella. The artichoke pasta was a failure and the calamari was bland and chewy. Even the oil provided on the table was infused with way, way, way too much rosemary and was certainly of a quality not suited for the table imho.

Even with the food being what it was the space was outstanding and the service engaging (if practiced in the modern american vein of sheeple pleaser restaurant etiquette where empty, or nearly empty plates, are stolen immediately, "everything" is recommended, and the finer points of the menu require consultation with the kitchen for clarification) - I will probably return though with a little more deliberation as to what I order.

Anyway, back to the baby and our first night out - He was great, the restaurant was accommodating, and the other patrons very respectful. In fact no one seemed to pay us much more than a quick glance with our bassinet and baby bag taking up extra space by the window. The whole experience (baby behavior aside) was a lot easier than we anticipated. o[color=#4000BF]of course we know that things will change as does the baby but things can at least sometimes run very smoothly[/color]

Breeder out!!

Jonah wrote:I agree, in theory, that it's O.K. to have fussy kids or babies in certain restaurants. Personally, when I hear a baby cry now, I just smile that it's not by problem to deal with, after having raised three. However, I have to say that my wife and I essentially stopped going taking our kids to just about all restaurants until they reached an age where they understood how to behave. It simply took away our ability to enjoy the ocassion. Regardless of who is right or wrong, we felt that we'd be imposing on others if our kids starting to cry, and we just didn't want to do that. Take out was just fine until our kids could understand the phrase we used to use: "restaurant voices!"

Jonah

I don't have kids yet, but I agree with this and will probably be the same way. I think parents who let their kids run wild in restaurants that others are paying to eat in is a little disrespectful and rude sometimes. No offense to the original poster, but if you want to go to a nice restaurant, save a little extra and hire a babysitter sometimes. There are places where kids being loud is more accepted than others, and it's a parent's job to figure out the difference.

I don't have kids yet

it's a parent's job to figure out the difference

Uh, thanks.

Mike G wrote:

I don't have kids yet

it's a parent's job to figure out the difference

Uh, thanks.

no, i don't have kids yet. that doesn't mean i don't understand decorum and respect of others. it's precisely people like me that are the ones most annoyed by children allowed to run wild, so i have direct knowledge of this annoyance. my opinion shouldn't be discounted, considering we're talking about all humans, not just those who have already bred. Some parents have bad nights, and you can tell who those are - my comments were largely directed at those (probably not many here) parents who you can tell just don't care and let their kids do whatever they want while they eat and talk.

j r wrote:The behavior of PARENTS that bothers me is when they let their kids run wild in a restaurant as if they were back home in their play rooms. They are either going to get run over by a server who doesn't see them or trip someone carrying an armload of food heading for my table. And it's not "cute" when your kid wanders up to my table and starts grabbing at stuff.

I know when I was a kid, my parents would never have let my brother and I behave like that in public. And I've certainly never let our kid wander.

Parents, if you can't control your kids, either leave them home or stay home with them.

THIS

Lugging around a 6 month old to some of our pre-child haunts has taught us a few lessons:

1.) Call ahead and ask if the place is kid-friendly. Any hesitation in their voice? Get a sitter or try a new place. We tried a place (unnamed) cold that we had visited pre-child who seemed surprised that we were carrying a kiddo in. We had a good meal, but we were served about 10 small plates in about 25 minutes. I think that my food eaten/time ratio was about as high as it has been in years.
2.) Go early. We left Mado one time after dinner as two nuns in their 80's were walking in. We got awesome food, didn't bother anyone, and got home before 6:30.
3.) Brunch places that open before 10 AM tend to be good bets to join others in your situation.
4.) If the situation gets dicey, get your check, pay it and split. It isn't going to get better and you aren't going to enjoy it. Same goes for the trip there. If it isn't going well, bail and get take out.

I am sure that as our kiddo grows, we'll have more learning to do as not being at a crawling stage yet has certainly kept our challenges noise related. I am interested to hear more from seasoned parents.

tnfbe wrote:"Sometimes, it falls on the establishment to set the rules"

Unless you do, and then there's a weeks-long shitfit from outraged parents about how "unfriendly" and child-hating your bakery/coffeshop is.
.

are we talking about A Taste of Heaven here?

Kennyz wrote:

elakin wrote:well, that's nice, i guess....but what lesson did that send your child? as a parent, even if someone assured me that it was okay for my kid to break their stuff, i still wouldn't let him, since he'd walk away from that experience thinking that breaking people's stuff is acceptable.

Looks like my attempt to stay out of the more controversial side of the thread has failed. Ah well. These three points ought to summarize the breaking-stuff dialogue in the the thread:

1. Ras Dashen is a nice place to take children
2. Kenny has questionable parental instincts
3. Thankfully (especially if #2 is accurate), Kenny is not the parent of that child or any other children. He was just the dumb friend who liked following the kid around and playing with all the toys.

we're going here for the first time tonight. hope it's nice

The point (I have to make it quick before a full outbreak of kid-loathing inevitably breaks out) is that lecturing the parents of America on how to manage their kids is sort of like calling up Mayor Daley to tell him a thing or two about Illinois politics.

The ones that know, know all that and far, far more already. The ones that don't know and don't care, aren't gonna learn now.

Now, let the wild rumpus start.

That can go for asking people to be kind to breeders as well. People that know, already know. People that don't and don't want to, aren't going to change. But this thread is 6 pages, so obviously people want to talk about it even though it won't change anything.

I guess I didnt know "kids running around restaurants" was so widespread. the only place I encounter that at is Chuck - e - Cheese, and that is encouraged there.

I'm always astounded when I see parents let their kids run around in restaurants, which I see more often than I can believe. I mean, even if one were completely ignorant to the conventions of common courtesy, it's dangerous for the kids because there are hot, sharp objects moving in all directions in restaurants. Kids are short and they're not always easy to see beneath a tier of hot plates. I guess if you're obliviousness isn't a selective condition.

I've been part of groups in which parents have let their kids run unchecked in restaurants and it's irritating and embarrassing. I don't like being associated with people who are so inconsiderate and careless. My son isn't perfect in restaurants but he understands the environment and is considerate of others -- and we like to keep him safe, too.

=R=

We witnessed some very good breeders at the Happ Inn last week. A large group was seated right behind us. They divided up with the 8 adults at one table and 8 children at the table next to them. The children ranged in age from about 7 to 10. The children remained seated during the entire time we were there-about 2 hours! They ate, drank and then quietly talked and played hand clapping games. It was so nice to see and it was a wonderful reflection on their parents.

On the other hand, my brother always thought his children were so cute that he would let them run around restaurants and play under the table. It was so stressful trying to keep my children seated and quiet when they saw that it was acceptable for their cousins to run around like wild animals. We always had a canvas bag for each kid with coloring books, crayons and small toys that we took to restaurants. My son would entertain himself for a long time with all of his cars and action figures. I was never embarrassed to take them places and the minute we could tell that they were going to crash and burn we would pay the bill and leave!

Diane wrote:We witnessed some very good breeders at the Happ Inn last week. A large group ...

I saw something like that in Amsterdam once.

A thoroughly enjoyable place to dine...with "house rules" clearly stated.

http://www.bavarian-lodge.com/Site/House_Rules.html

This section of their FAQ is wonderful:

Is the Restaurant Child-Friendly? •
(We greatly apologize for the length of this answer, but apparently we’ve got a lot to say.)
We offer a children's menu for kids under 12 years of age. If you’re an understanding, responsible parent and have well-behaved, well-supervised children, of course they’re welcome. Just keep in mind that we don’t change the way we do business to accommodate the needs of your child. We designed the restaurant around serving adults and that’s certainly our focus. To maintain our pub room’s atmosphere, and a happy bar crowd along with it, small children are not allowed in the pub room. No one under 21 is allowed at the bar, this applies to newborns and infants as well, after all... it’s a bar. We don’t offer activity place mats, crayons, sippy cups, or other fun, games and apparatus for children, so please bring entertainment and supplies for the kids if needed. We have a small number of high-chairs, so have a back-up plan on busy days, especially on Sundays. Absolutely no strollers in the dining room, please! We urge parents to keep the comfort of our other guests in mind when dining with small children. Running around, horseplay, shouting, unsupervised wandering, playing hide-and-seek under the booths, and other such shenanigans will be not be tolerated. If all of this leads you to believe that we’ve had problems with parents that can’t keep their kids under control, you’re absolutely right. We’ll admit it...this isn’t the greatest place for kids. But hey, that’s okay, we don’t really like hanging out at Children’s Museums or Chuck E. Cheese, so it all works out. If all of this makes you a bit uncomfortable bringing your kids in for dinner, we suggest hiring a sitter and enjoying your evening with us without the kids.

Kennyz wrote:

Diane wrote:We witnessed some very good breeders at the Happ Inn last week. A large group ...

I saw something like that in Amsterdam once.

Here's my open pact with restaurants: I'll bring my daughter to whatever restaurant I want (including very high end restaurants). I'll tip extremely well. I'll take her out when she cries (she's 8 months old) and I'll clean up after her. In exchange, I expect you not to scoff at me when bringing her in the front door (especially after I've asked your staff far in advance if it's ok/appropriate for me to bring my 8 month old to the restaurant), I expect you to not give me shit for service, and I expect my food to be at the same quality as everyone else. I recognize you may not have a high chair- that's fine- but recognize that we may need an extra seat at the table.

By the way, the more you interact with my child and us in a non-patronizing way, the far more your tip is going to go up- it's certainly not a pre-requisite, but I prefer that you treat my child as a member of the group dining (to an appropriate extent) than as an object to be ignored or hated.