LAZ wrote:What we have said is that some city dwellers talk as if we had neither good food nor the taste to seek it.

Some city dwellers that I've met do seem to intimate that point of view. Mike G certainly isn't one of them.

Mike G wrote:

What we have said is that some city dwellers talk as if we had neither good food nor the taste to seek it. Thanks for bearing that out.

Hogwash.

Gosh. Perhaps I'm reading sarcasm where it isn't intended. If you'll affirm you meant the following literally rather than ironically, I'll apologize.

Mike G wrote:So it would be completely wrong, for instance, to suggest that a large part of the commercial real estate market in the suburbs is geared toward large chains who carry with them certain other characteristics, and thus to attribute those characteristics generally to suburban dining. Because nobody's eating at that godawful stretch of chain hell on Butterfield Road, God knows. Suburbanites have way too much taste to patronize any of those places.

In context, however, it sure reads to me like an ironic statement that the existence of chain restaurants on Butterfield Road justifies painting suburban dining in general as chainlike, with uncomplimentary connotations about suburbanites' taste.

If you don't mean that, what on earth do you mean?

I mean that denying that great amounts of plastic chain dining exists in the suburbs (far in excess of what exists in the city) flies in the face of observable reality and historical fact shaped by known economic and cultural forces.

I mean that denying that the suburbs have often served as a refuge from the harsher edges of life in an urban center also flies in the face of what everyone knows to be true (see Cynthia's comments above). Gentility is often pleasant; it is also often conservative.

I mean that denying people the ability to use terms such as "Schaumburg Chinese" to perfectly encapsulate a certain form of dining is as bad as denying them the right to say that a barbecue place is real ghetto, that a southern food place is authentic redneck, that a Mexican place is straight from over the border, that an Italian place happens to share a name with a long-ago gangster. It's the kind of hypersensitivity that ultimately creates more barriers and discourages the open sampling of different food cultures for fear of offense.

I mean you're avoiding what's in plain sight in my posts in order to maintain indignation, frankly.

How was your tour of Milwaukee Ave. for the eGullet folks? I remember telling RST about that area, years ago. He had the usual prejudices about anything outside the city but I told him, look past the Best Buy and the Penney's, you've got Polish delis and middle eastern and Filipino and all kinds of stuff being carried out there as immigrants settle in the burbs. Fascinating area. Maybe you should tell LTHForum about it, too.

One thing this thread has accomplished is to remind me how much I like white bread. Not metaphorical white bread--real white bread. Sure, whole wheat is better for you, and interesting, and rye is de rigueur on other occasions, but every now and then, a tuna salad or pb&j on white bread is great. It's time for a major reassessment of our bread values, America.

Mike G wrote:I remember telling RST about that area, years ago. He had the usual prejudices about anything outside the city but I told him, look past the Best Buy and the Penney's, you've got Polish delis and middle eastern and Filipino and all kinds of stuff being carried out there as immigrants settle in the burbs.

RST has certainly been around Niles ethnic food shops. I took him on his first H-Mart visit, which he was mightily impressed. I know he has gone back to Niles with another intrepid poster. It really is quite the ethnic shopping mecca.

Regards,

Mike G brings up a point about not telling people they can't say certain things, because then all comments cease. He's absolutely right. However, I'd suggest that the OP had the right to say that he'd like to see the suburbs get more respect. You don't have to agree, but to make it sound as though letting someone have that opinion is somehow different from someone else holding the opposite opinion is contradictory. The OP (and others who have joined in) have a right to the opinion that the suburbs offer some great options. The urbanites have the right to the opinion that we're an endless string of chain restaurants. Both sides can hope that negative opinions change, at least when they appear unjustified. But one does not shut down one side in order to make the other side more comfortable. Because no one has suggested that city folk can't hold a low opinion of the suburbs, or that negative comments will be disallowed. Moderators are not going to start deleting comments about white bread. Someone just expressed a hope that the view of the suburbs would improve, they didn't introduce the censoring of negative comments.

I'm glad the suburbs have improved -- particularly with gas at $4 a gallon. Because one can afford to eat out more often if it doesn't cost $20 to get to the restaurant. (That's NOT why I pick a restaurant, just why I'm glad some good ones are closer.) But I still go to the city -- often. I appreciate the fact that, culinarily, it's a target-rich environment. It is nice, however, to be surrounded by ethnic stores and restaurants out here, as well.

riddlemay wrote:One thing this thread has accomplished is to remind me how much I like white bread. Not metaphorical white bread--real white bread. Sure, whole wheat is better for you, and interesting, and rye is de rigueur on other occasions, but every now and then, a tuna salad or pb&j on white bread is great. It's time for a major reassessment of our bread values, America.

Absolutely. And a hot turkey sandwich must be on white bread.

Cynthia wrote:Absolutely. And a hot turkey sandwich must be on white bread.

With an ice cream scoop of stuffing!

Regards,

Wow. I forget to pop in for a day and look what happens! Must've touched a nerve. Good reading and some nice ideas to follow up on for future dining.

Frankly, I can live with the idea that the 'burbs encompass both "big box" dining and the no-longer-so-hidden gems. Those are the realities of the area. It's also great that the ethnic diversity is growing (although we just lost Paprikash AND Takkatsu near where I work in A.H.). I've been to Brio, Rain Forest Cafe and Vie and enjoyed them for entirely different reasons.

It's just that some of the comments "out there" were starting to read like a Geico cave-man commercial when it came to suburban dining! I respect that it's not always easy to get out west/north/northwest/south/etc., but please be aware that you can probably find somewhere really good if you just look/ask! But then, perhaps, I'm preaching to the choir here.

Mike G wrote:I mean that denying people the ability to use terms such as "Schaumburg Chinese" to perfectly encapsulate a certain form of dining is as bad as denying them the right to say that a barbecue place is real ghetto, that a southern food place is authentic redneck, that a Mexican place is straight from over the border, that an Italian place happens to share a name with a long-ago gangster. It's the kind of hypersensitivity that ultimately creates more barriers and discourages the open sampling of different food cultures for fear of offense.

I don't deny that there are bland chain restaurants in the suburbs, although I have certainly demonstrated that there's a lot more besides. You requested an "an actual example of this prejudice everybody keeps pointing to"; I provided a quotation that used "suburban" as a slur. Your response is that, since "great amounts of plastic chain dining exists in the suburbs," that use is just fine. To me, that's akin to saying that since there are so many illegal aliens, it's OK to refer to all immigrants as "wetbacks."

I would also suggest that anyone who equates "suburban" with "gentility" has a very naive and limited view of the suburbs.

If you want to believe that I'm hypersensitive to consider that the use of "suburban" as a synonym for "bland and chainlike" unfairly condemns a broad swath of diverse communities and therefore demonstrates disrespectful prejudice, so be it.

Mike G wrote:How was your tour of Milwaukee Ave. for the eGullet folks? I remember telling RST about that area, years ago. He had the usual prejudices about anything outside the city but I told him, look past the Best Buy and the Penney's, you've got Polish delis and middle eastern and Filipino and all kinds of stuff being carried out there as immigrants settle in the burbs. Fascinating area. Maybe you should tell LTHForum about it, too.

Milwaukee Avenue is a very long street, stretching from River West in Chicago to Gurnee. While I have taken various folks on tours of different parts of it, for the recent eGullet Gathering, I led a tour of Niles, which included a few stops on Milwaukee, but other areas as well.

I and others have covered Niles fairly well on this site. Indeed, the restaurant referred to in the quotation we've been discussing is in Niles, along with highly acclaimed places like Siam's House and the Himalayan, plus H-Mart and a wide variety of other food stores.

However, here's an overview of the area:
Super markets: Niles' plethora of ethnic grocers makes town food-shopping mecca

LAZ wrote:Your response is that, since "great amounts of plastic chain dining exists in the suburbs," that use is just fine. To me, that's akin to saying that since there are so many illegal aliens, it's OK to refer to all immigrants as "wetbacks."

...

If you want to believe that I'm hypersensitive to consider that the use of "suburban" as a synonym for "bland and chainlike" unfairly condemns a broad swath of diverse communities and therefore demonstrates disrespectful prejudice, so be it.

I think we're about 4 posts away from proving Godwin's law.

To me, that's akin to saying that since there are so many illegal aliens, it's OK to refer to all immigrants as "wetbacks."

Yes, if housing developments and lifestyles are akin to human beings.

I'd love to carry this further and prove Gleam right, but I have a restaurant in Palos Heights* I have to write up now.

* corrected

Folks, we're going to lock this thread now, as the discussion has become quite circular and drifted a long way from the specific sentiment that was expressed in the post that opened it.

Thanks,

=R=
for the moderators