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local chefs speak out against bloggers/yelp/lth in trib arti

local chefs speak out against bloggers/yelp/lth in trib arti
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  • Post #31 - September 25th, 2008, 10:48 am
    Post #31 - September 25th, 2008, 10:48 am Post #31 - September 25th, 2008, 10:48 am
    If you sit around in a roundtable for two hours with a member or members of the media, the ONLY things that will generally be reported are those things that will arouse some controversy. The ten or fifteen POSITIVE things you say will be ignored or deemphasized and the one thing that you critisize will get all the attention.

    The real loser in this whole game is NOT the chefs. The real loser is the print media which no longer controls the discussion of the restaurant scene and is rapidly becoming obsolete.
  • Post #32 - September 25th, 2008, 10:53 am
    Post #32 - September 25th, 2008, 10:53 am Post #32 - September 25th, 2008, 10:53 am
    jlawrence01 wrote:If you sit around in a roundtable for two hours with a member or members of the media, the ONLY things that will generally be reported are those things that will arouse some controversy. The ten or fifteen POSITIVE things you say will be ignored or deemphasized and the one thing that you critisize will get all the attention.

    The real loser in this whole game is NOT the chefs. The real loser is the print media which no longer controls the discussion of the restaurant scene and is rapidly becoming obsolete.


    It's a good point. It's entirely possible that GEB said something like, "I love blogs. I really love LTHForum. It has done so much for me and for our diners. That said, there are some aspects which I do find quirky..." Even if the reporter wrote the whole thing, it's also entirely possible that the editors shortened it to include only the controversy.
    ...defended from strong temptations to social ambition by a still stronger taste for tripe and onions." Screwtape in The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis

    Fuckerberg on Food
  • Post #33 - September 25th, 2008, 11:00 am
    Post #33 - September 25th, 2008, 11:00 am Post #33 - September 25th, 2008, 11:00 am
    Kennyz wrote:It's entirely possible that GEB said something like, "I love blogs. I really love LTHForum. It has done so much for me and for our diners. That said, there are some aspects which I do find quirky..." Even if the reporter wrote the whole thing, it's also entirely possible that the editors shortened it to include only the controversy.

    That's entirely possible, but if so it would be a violation of journalistic ethics, as I understand them. The reporter/editor's responsibility is to accurately depict the full tone and meaning of the discussion, not just to pick out the most provocative portions.

    But admittedly, that comes from the days when I was a journalist, decades ago. It's entirely possible that in the interim the phrase "journalistic ethics" has become an oxymoron.
    Last edited by nr706 on September 25th, 2008, 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
  • Post #34 - September 25th, 2008, 11:01 am
    Post #34 - September 25th, 2008, 11:01 am Post #34 - September 25th, 2008, 11:01 am
    JeffB wrote:In the end, who cares what chefs have to say about journalism, or criticism, or food anthropology, or documentary, or whatever happens here. They cook food for a living for chrissakes. :wink:

    Thanks, Jeff, for this insightful comment. I can now get on with my day. :)

    =R=
    By protecting others, you save yourself. If you only think of yourself, you'll only destroy yourself. --Kambei Shimada

    Every human interaction is an opportunity for disappointment --RS

    There's a horse loose in a hospital --JM

    That don't impress me much --Shania Twain
  • Post #35 - September 25th, 2008, 11:02 am
    Post #35 - September 25th, 2008, 11:02 am Post #35 - September 25th, 2008, 11:02 am
    One of the great benefits of the internet is its scope and its representation of freedom of speech. That is a double-edged sword. For every well-reasoned, carefully-worded opinion, there is at least one off-the-cuff, uninformed opinion. It is up to the reader to judge the merits of the information based on their needs, preferences and ideas. Blogging opens up the opinion forum in such a way that one must use judgement to decide which opinions to take at face value. But is this really any different from reading an editorial from a publication or an entry from a guidebook? Why is the Tribune, Sun Times or Zagats, for example, more valuable to everyone that the personal opinions of posters or bloggers? They're still opinions and, in a free speech arena, everyone should have their say.

    To the chefs, if I am going into your restaurant to drop a couple hundred dollars of my hard-earned cash, I'd like to know what others have thought first. It's just the same if I were going to buy a car (and some of your restaurants are at a similar price point), I'd want to know what my neighbor or anyone else thinks about the car. It is my choice which opinions to heed. To say that I should not post an opinion because I'm not a professional chef is ridiculous. We all eat for a living if you think about it. Should I only take the opinion of professional food critics? Are their experiences somehow closer to mine? Some of the worst advice I've gotten has come from professionals, while some of the best has come from 'regular people.'

    Finally, snobbery seems to be on both sides of the aisle. Some of the most snobbish comments I've read about food and restaurants in general have come from the lth community; so has some of the best advice. However, to posit that a member or members of the lth community have been solely responsible for putting restaurants on the map makes it seem like they're pretty full of themselves.

    Anytime someone thinks of the themselves as higher, mightier, smarter or more worthy than the next person, then lack of respect is sure to follow. Lack of respect breeds contempt and this closes people off from one another. If you think your opinion is the only one of value, then save yourself the time and trouble and find another hobby.

    Jeff
  • Post #36 - September 25th, 2008, 11:22 am
    Post #36 - September 25th, 2008, 11:22 am Post #36 - September 25th, 2008, 11:22 am
    JeffB wrote:In the end, who cares what chefs have to say about journalism, or criticism, or food anthropology, or documentary, or whatever happens here. They cook food for a living for chrissakes. :wink:


    It seems to me that most of us do care what they think. We cared plenty when Chef GEB introduced us to his favorite sandwich spot. We care when we watch shows like "Diary of a Foodie" or sit down to discuss things with a chef like the provenance of a dish or the source of their ingredients. We care about their passion, drive, and knowledge.

    And they don't just cook food for a living. These guys are running businesses in a service industry. They budget for marketing and they all know the value of "word of mouth". They all know that it's better to have people talking about you than to have no one reviewing you at all. I'd like to go back in time a few months while they were still painting the walls at Urbanbelly and ask Bill if he'd like to have bloggers posting photos of his food in a few months.

    What these quotes say to me is that, in hindsight, they only want the good reviews. They only want Vettel who's scale starts at "good" and ends at "excellent". Unfortunately for people with this attitude, the train has left the station. People are going to talk and talk and talk about where they spend their money. Whether it's a plumber on Angie's List, a mechanic on Yelp, or a restaurant on LTHForum--people are gonna talk. The old-media school of restaurant reviewing has one foot in the grave (if you don't believe me, pick up the "new" tribune on monday and try to tell me that the newspaper industry isn't in it's final years).

    You can either jump in and swim and use the public to your advantage, or you keep a closed mind and get swept up by the current.
  • Post #37 - September 25th, 2008, 11:32 am
    Post #37 - September 25th, 2008, 11:32 am Post #37 - September 25th, 2008, 11:32 am
    And I hear you, but let's remember that chefs are not really FOH guys, and probably don't have their heads in that "customer is always right" place; they're there to cook and run a kitchen, which takes an entirely different set of mental muscles. What I was trying to say above is that when somebody is picking apart your livelihood, especially one where you've invested so much of your persona, into the smallest minutiae, it stings - possibly even when positive.

    Was answering this question at all an error in judgement on the part of the chefs? You bet. Does it sting having our own criticism come back at us? Yup. Am I going to stop writing about what I eat and obsessively checking this forum every day? Hell, no.
  • Post #38 - September 25th, 2008, 11:40 am
    Post #38 - September 25th, 2008, 11:40 am Post #38 - September 25th, 2008, 11:40 am
    While I don't take any of those quotes as some type of personal affront, I do find them both to be exceptionally short-sighted and ungrateful. The Urban Belly one is particularly bewildering given the amount of buzz LTH created for the place immediately following it's opening. For Bill's biggest pet peeve to be the same "bloggers" who choose to flood his restaurant and pay the somewhat exorbitant prices he charges, really infers a deep lack of gratitude and professionalism.

    While it's been on the absolute top of my 'must try' list based upon threads on this board, Urban Belly is now a restaurant I have absolutely no intention of going to and I can happily remove it, with 90 Miles to Cuba now taking top billing.

    I'd really encourage this site to reconsider awarding them a GNR. They've made their disdain for this community rather clear.
  • Post #39 - September 25th, 2008, 11:42 am
    Post #39 - September 25th, 2008, 11:42 am Post #39 - September 25th, 2008, 11:42 am
    Mhays wrote:And I hear you, but let's remember that chefs are not really FOH guys, . . .


    No, but Bill's wife, Yvonne, is/was, and at a Class A place like RL, too. I can't imagine she wasn't slapping her head in disgust when she read Bill's words this morning . . .

    eatchicago wrote:The old-media school of restaurant reviewing has one foot in the grave . . .


    And the other on a banana peel. :)

    I think there is a bit of pissed-offedness that the "old boy" gentlemen's network of reviewing is gone. Not unlike what we went through in the '80s when politicians were pissed off that the media revealed their off-marriage dalliances instead of keeping it a secret in the Kennedy era. It's like, get used to it, the times, they are a-changin'. . .
  • Post #40 - September 25th, 2008, 11:45 am
    Post #40 - September 25th, 2008, 11:45 am Post #40 - September 25th, 2008, 11:45 am
    I interpreted them as making fun of bloggers who, in particular, take themselves and their writing too seriously, which is why they talked about exaggerated review lengths, nitpicky criticisms and people who give the appearance that documenting their meal comes before the pleasure of eating it. That may be an unfair characterization of many people on here, but it's not hard to read threads on here and come up with exactly the same stereotype.
    pizza fun
  • Post #41 - September 25th, 2008, 11:46 am
    Post #41 - September 25th, 2008, 11:46 am Post #41 - September 25th, 2008, 11:46 am
    I find this very interesting and hope the chefs themselves come here to comment on it, but in my experience with Bill at UrbanBelly, he has been very grateful for the overwhelmingly positive attention from the internet and on LTH in particular.

    I know there are some rather thoughtless reviews on Yelp, (ie; I KNOW Asian food and this isn't "true" Korean type of things) perhaps he was speaking with those in mind?

    We know Chefs Elliot and Kim read this board, I'd love to hear from them.
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend. Few understand." Leo Durocher
  • Post #42 - September 25th, 2008, 11:49 am
    Post #42 - September 25th, 2008, 11:49 am Post #42 - September 25th, 2008, 11:49 am
    Ursiform wrote:I know there are some rather thoughtless reviews on Yelp, (ie; I KNOW Asian food and this isn't "true" Korean type of things) perhaps he was speaking with those in mind?


    Perhaps, but the whole point is that he/we/everyone has the ability to call out those thoughtless reviews, right on the same page for everyone to read!
  • Post #43 - September 25th, 2008, 11:51 am
    Post #43 - September 25th, 2008, 11:51 am Post #43 - September 25th, 2008, 11:51 am
    MBK wrote:i i think the web gives people a chance to be anonymous in their posts;


    i somewhat disagree. depending on the specific site, that may or may not be true. but i think just about anyone with 3 brain cells could do some google searching and find my real name and half the posters on this site. and yelp actually requires you give them a real name. i don't really believe in the illusion of privacy and don't totally mind this. you might then think "well it's still not a real person"...but Graham Elliott had your name on the reservation (and probably your credit card name too), so if they really wanted they could go patch that back to a real person and real experience in their restaurant. i think the anonymous vs real person factor is one thing that sets these sites apart from other review sites that are not even bothered with (metromix, citysearch, etc).
  • Post #44 - September 25th, 2008, 11:53 am
    Post #44 - September 25th, 2008, 11:53 am Post #44 - September 25th, 2008, 11:53 am
    eatchicago wrote:
    Ursiform wrote:I know there are some rather thoughtless reviews on Yelp, (ie; I KNOW Asian food and this isn't "true" Korean type of things) perhaps he was speaking with those in mind?


    Perhaps, but the whole point is that he/we/everyone has the ability to call out those thoughtless reviews, right on the same page for everyone to read!


    Certainly on LTH we do, but on Yelp, the review stands alone and is judge merely by how many "Useful," "Funny," and "Cool" votes it receives.
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend. Few understand." Leo Durocher
  • Post #45 - September 25th, 2008, 11:54 am
    Post #45 - September 25th, 2008, 11:54 am Post #45 - September 25th, 2008, 11:54 am
    The more I think about this, the more I find a need to remind myself that we are much more likely to be misled by the media than by chefs. Obviously, I wasn't there, but re-reading Chef Kim's comments, I imagine a dialogue something like this:

    Reporter: What's your biggest pet peeve about diners?

    Kim: Really, nothing I can think of. Diners are what allow me to do what I love every day.

    Reporter: OK, but if you had to pick one thing that you wish they wouldn't do, what would you say?

    Kim: Well, I'm not even sure this is worth mentioning, because on the whole I think blogging and sites like LTHForum are good for our business. But it's a 2-sided coin. Yes, I was thrilled with all the initial positive reports we had on LTHForum, but it also made me a little nervous. I mean, we'd only been open a few days, and even I wasn't sure whether the kinks had been worked out. So, when I started seeing all these people coming in to take photos and write notes about the place...
    ...defended from strong temptations to social ambition by a still stronger taste for tripe and onions." Screwtape in The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis

    Fuckerberg on Food
  • Post #46 - September 25th, 2008, 11:56 am
    Post #46 - September 25th, 2008, 11:56 am Post #46 - September 25th, 2008, 11:56 am
    Kennyz wrote:The more I think about this, the more I find a need to remind myself that we are much more likely to be misled by the media than by chefs. Obviously, I wasn't there, but re-reading Chef Kim's comments, I imagine a dialogue something like this:

    Reporter: What's your biggest pet peeve about diners?

    Kim: Really, nothing I can think of. Diners are what allow me to do what I love every day.

    Reporter: OK, but if you had to pick one thing that you wish they wouldn't do, what would you say?

    Kim: Well, I'm not even sure this is worth mentioning, because on the whole I think blogging and sites like LTHForum are good for our business. But it's a 2-sided coin. Yes, I was thrilled with all the initial positive reports we had on LTHForum, but it also made me a little nervous. I mean, we'd only been open a few days, and even I wasn't sure whether the kinks had been worked out. So, when I started seeing all these people coming in to take photos and write notes about the place...


    You might be right. It sure would be something if they'd use this annoying forum to set the record straight.
  • Post #47 - September 25th, 2008, 11:56 am
    Post #47 - September 25th, 2008, 11:56 am Post #47 - September 25th, 2008, 11:56 am
    ...and another aspect that Graham Elliot probably doesn't care about, but really should if they have a true interest in food and not just making money.. there are hundreds (maybe thousands) of restaurants that would never ever make it into a Chicago Tribune review, or even TimeOut. what about "the little guys" ?? what about Harbour Point, which is in a blighted sh*#hole area but might have good food still? did the Tribune write a review on them, or did people run to LTH and find them?
  • Post #48 - September 25th, 2008, 12:04 pm
    Post #48 - September 25th, 2008, 12:04 pm Post #48 - September 25th, 2008, 12:04 pm
    Even thought it wasn't stated so explicitly in the article, my general take was that perhaps LTH was (perhaps not intentionally) thrown in with the yelp and metromix 'reviewers' of the net who IMHO seem to like to RANT RANT RANT more then Rave, and therefore so many times (to my mind) carry some axe to grind because the hostess didn't recognize their self-entitled particular brand of genius upon their arrival or the server didn't smile enough when Jenn and Josh expected such.

    Rarely do these other sites either provide much critical reasoning or informed logic for their love or lack thereof of a place. (YUM YUM YUM! YUCK YUCK YUCK!) Gawd.

    That's why I enjoy this site so much. The passion is evident and the discussions, manners, and arguments are always mature. As you may note, while a member for a little awhile, i generally prefer to browse and get me some good edumacation from many of the posters here.
  • Post #49 - September 25th, 2008, 12:07 pm
    Post #49 - September 25th, 2008, 12:07 pm Post #49 - September 25th, 2008, 12:07 pm
    Welcome, RR! Look forward to hearing more from you!
  • Post #50 - September 25th, 2008, 12:24 pm
    Post #50 - September 25th, 2008, 12:24 pm Post #50 - September 25th, 2008, 12:24 pm
    I seems to me, as someone whose family has owned a number of restaurants some successful some not, that the only people who are upset about bloggers are those that have reaped the benefits from it and now run successful, well thought of places. If it were not for dedicated eaters like the ones on LTH many of these places would not last regardless of how good the food may be. This may be especially true for a place like Urban Belly, whose location is not exactly what I would call a destination, nor is it particularly obvious to the casual passer-by who may live in the area; therefore, it is a little presumptuous to me for these chefs to think that their talent and the quality of their food to be enough to keep them in business. It is a little scary to have all of these people come in when you are not sure that you are ready yet, but having no one come in is a much worse problem for a business to have. I understand why it may be frustrating to some of these chefs to see some of the write-ups on the blogs I think that it is important for them to realize that on a blog if you get a bad review and you are a good place it will immediately be followed by 5 people who disagree with that review. Isn't that preferable to one newspaper or travel guide reviewer having a bad experience and giving you a bad review? It is also important to note that there are differences in the blogs. Some blogs (like LTH!) are more about the celebration of good food and where to find it than just critiquing the restaurant. I had been watching LTH a while before I recently started posting, and what struck me is that most of the reviews focused on what was good about a place rather than what was disappointing. It is human nature for us to give more attention to what doesn't make us happy rather than what does.
  • Post #51 - September 25th, 2008, 12:42 pm
    Post #51 - September 25th, 2008, 12:42 pm Post #51 - September 25th, 2008, 12:42 pm
    dddane wrote:...and another aspect that Graham Elliot probably doesn't care about, but really should if they have a true interest in food and not just making money.. there are hundreds (maybe thousands) of restaurants that would never ever make it into a Chicago Tribune review, or even TimeOut. what about "the little guys" ?? what about Harbour Point, which is in a blighted sh*#hole area but might have good food still? did the Tribune write a review on them, or did people run to LTH and find them?


    This is what pissed me off about the statements. Word of mouth, buzz and in the end good food are what make or break a place. However there have been many places with great food that couldnt survive due to no exposure. So they cant have it both ways, its funny because you know these two goofs have used sites/blogs for food info on stuff like Italian beef, pizza, regional Chinese/mexican eats and little shacks of different ethnic variety around town. But when its their own place all of a sudden, people cant do it?

    Its the sites like LTH and roadfood and 1000's of blogs out there that generate buzz and business for the mom and pop spots. These sites/blogs keep them in business and the tradition alive. All the old-school spots throughout the US that havent changed in decades and are hard to find in the middle of nowhere places that dont have websites benefit from people with a love of roadfood. They spread the word.

    Eventually at most high end places the ad money and investors will run out, the buzz wears off and it shuts down a few years after opening beacuse no one cares about the celeb chef anymore and his fancy looking plates of art that are going to be vandalized by my knife and fork anyways.
  • Post #52 - September 25th, 2008, 12:53 pm
    Post #52 - September 25th, 2008, 12:53 pm Post #52 - September 25th, 2008, 12:53 pm
    dddane wrote:
    MBK wrote:i i think the web gives people a chance to be anonymous in their posts;


    i somewhat disagree. depending on the specific site, that may or may not be true. but i think just about anyone with 3 brain cells could do some google searching and find my real name and half the posters on this site. and yelp actually requires you give them a real name. i don't really believe in the illusion of privacy and don't totally mind this. you might then think "well it's still not a real person"...but Graham Elliott had your name on the reservation (and probably your credit card name too), so if they really wanted they could go patch that back to a real person and real experience in their restaurant. i think the anonymous vs real person factor is one thing that sets these sites apart from other review sites that are not even bothered with (metromix, citysearch, etc).


    still not the same; you can be anon much easier over the net than in person or in print media. if you want to slander, you can make up a name and do as you wish. not saying it happens here but it definetely happens on the web
  • Post #53 - September 25th, 2008, 1:05 pm
    Post #53 - September 25th, 2008, 1:05 pm Post #53 - September 25th, 2008, 1:05 pm
    I didn't take their comments as negatively as some have. Like thousands of emails I've written before, I'm sure their words sounded harsher than what they meant. It would have been nice if the article allowed them to elaborate on why bloggers/forums are a pet peeve. I can't imagine they'd prefer no conversation or only positive conversation*. I took GEB's comments to meant that his pet peeve was the obsessiveness of some writers, not the act of writing/blogging in the first place.

    *I'm sure they'd like to merit only positive comments. But they know they don't and, given this, I'm sure most restaurateurs would prefer to know about the positives and negatives.
  • Post #54 - September 25th, 2008, 1:14 pm
    Post #54 - September 25th, 2008, 1:14 pm Post #54 - September 25th, 2008, 1:14 pm
    aschie30 wrote:On a related note, did we get some sympathy from Paul Kahan?

    Paul Kahan wrote:Paul: Well, they do it for sports. I mean think about talk radio. This online stuff is like culinary talk radio.


    I think Paul gets it.
    Steve Z.

    “Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven
  • Post #55 - September 25th, 2008, 1:27 pm
    Post #55 - September 25th, 2008, 1:27 pm Post #55 - September 25th, 2008, 1:27 pm
    Making comments about how customers suck is always in poor taste. It is certainly an awful feeling to go online and find invidious (or just negative) comments about yourself. But just don't. I'm irritated with the interviewer for asking the question and feel somewhat sorry for those who fell into that trap, but they should have known better.
  • Post #56 - September 25th, 2008, 1:40 pm
    Post #56 - September 25th, 2008, 1:40 pm Post #56 - September 25th, 2008, 1:40 pm
    Among the more amusing responses in the article, when asked where she would eat if she had only $10, Carrie said "I would sit at the bar at Frontera." And have what? Some hot sauce and chips, then stiff the bartender? Maybe they comp her because she's industry.
    ...defended from strong temptations to social ambition by a still stronger taste for tripe and onions." Screwtape in The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis

    Fuckerberg on Food
  • Post #57 - September 25th, 2008, 3:07 pm
    Post #57 - September 25th, 2008, 3:07 pm Post #57 - September 25th, 2008, 3:07 pm
    Bill, Bill, Bill. Speaking as one of those people with cameras that put you on the map, you're not doing yourself any favors.


    Wouldn't a chef's cooking put him on the map and not someone blogging about it with a camera? That's pretty self-important, I suppose that's nature of blogging though.

    While I regularly read this blog (and contribute), I can understand why chefs are annoyed by bloggers, regardless of the press it may generate?
  • Post #58 - September 25th, 2008, 3:21 pm
    Post #58 - September 25th, 2008, 3:21 pm Post #58 - September 25th, 2008, 3:21 pm
    I'm not offended by the chefs' remarks--but I am surprised how, simply from a tactical point of view, stupid they are! You know that if you or I were they, we might be thinking "effin' food bloggers," but we'd be smart enough to say something different, along the lines of "I think the Chicago internet-foodie community has done amazing things to raise the overall level and diversity of cuisine in this city and call attention to what's going on under the radar, etc. etc. boilerplate." Cripes, find some way to say that that sounds like you mean it, even if you don't! It's not that hard!
  • Post #59 - September 25th, 2008, 3:45 pm
    Post #59 - September 25th, 2008, 3:45 pm Post #59 - September 25th, 2008, 3:45 pm
    KatyK wrote:While I regularly read this blog



    As a point of clarification (trivial as it might be), LTH most certainly is not a blog. It's a discussion forum. A blog is normally defined as an online diary or a chronological log of articles, often written by one person and occasionally with a limited number of additional contributors.
  • Post #60 - September 25th, 2008, 3:52 pm
    Post #60 - September 25th, 2008, 3:52 pm Post #60 - September 25th, 2008, 3:52 pm
    KatyK wrote:Wouldn't a chef's cooking put him on the map and not someone blogging about it with a camera


    Normally, I would agree with you, but in this prticular case (and a few other documented cases), it was those posting here on LTH Forum (which is not a Blog, BTW) and possibly elsewhere on the internet that gave them the initial unexpected rush of customers during their first week of operation. Of course, once people come through the door, it's up to the chef and front of house staff to make them happy and bring them back again.
    Steve Z.

    “Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven

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