teatpuller wrote:The place is an Italian restaurant. The fact that there are pork products in their dough, bread, sauce, or whatever, should not be that surprising.

I don't disagree with you. To me, the question is not "are there situations in which a reasonable person should not be surprised to find [ingredient X]," but rather, "are there NO situations in which a reasonable person would be surprised to find [ingredient X]?" It seems to me that there are many situations in which a reasonable person would have every right to be surprised (if not dismayed) to find [ingredient X]. But I get from some commenters here that they don't believe this to be the case--that the onus is always on the customer to ask first, and that there is no such thing, ever, as a reasonable assumption. I disagree with that.

riddlemay wrote: But I get from some commenters here that they don't believe this to be the case--that the onus is always on the customer to ask first, and that there is no such thing, ever, as a reasonable assumption. I disagree with that.

I agree in theory, but I have a hard time coming up with examples....a place that labels itself as vegetarian you would assume was, in fact, vegetarian. Besides that, I would not assume anything.

My sister-in-law is deathly allergic to tree nuts. She always asks whether or not a dish has nuts in it. It is not that onerous to do when the issue is of extreme importance. Unfortunately, the server is accurate about 75% of the time. (If I were her, I would NEVER eat out, but that's another topic.)

Right. This is why I'm saying that knowing your ingredients and being able to communicate them accurately should be part of the food sanitation course (every restaurant is required to have on certified person on staff at all times that food is being handled.) Even the little mom-and-pop ethnic restaurants and food carts are required to have a certified food service manager; this seems like a reasonable thing to add to that job description.

As I indicated earlier, I disagree with riddlemay - if you've got a specific food requirement, it's up to you to tell your waitstaff what it is and not make assumptions. However,- after that point, it's on the restaurant - somebody there should have training to be able to understand you, and also to see to it that your needs are met (or that you're politely turned away if need be.)

Mhays wrote:(every restaurant is required to have on certified person on staff at all times that food is being handled.) Even the little mom-and-pop ethnic restaurants and food carts are required to have a certified food service manager; this seems like a reasonable thing to add to that job description.

While this is true, the example mentioned was about waitstaff, not the Certified Food Safety Manager. The certification is in safe food handling, not creating a menu. During the class, which I have taken in two states, there is no mention of specific ingredients. The only information covered is the various nasties that can cause food poisoning and preventative measures to keep them away.

If the server did not know that the soup had sausage, they should have asked someone who did.

Flip

Yes. Currently, even though it can be a serious public health issue, no one in a restaurant is required to know how to handle customers with specific food requirements. I'm saying that this should be changed, and it seems to me that the most reasonable place to change it, since they're already required to take a 15-hour course and pass a test, is the food sanitation manager (especially since the issue often pertains to the health of the customer.) They should be in charge of training FOH staff to handle these questions in the same way they are hopefully teaching HACCP to the back of house staff.

I am betting that some waitstaff don't know what lard is or where it comes from, and decide what's in things by inspecting them visually.

aren't oreo cookies made with lard?

lard and pizza....hmmm sounds tasty

Mhays wrote:Yes. Currently, even though it can be a serious public health issue, no one in a restaurant is required to know how to handle customers with specific food requirements. I'm saying that this should be changed, and it seems to me that the most reasonable place to change it, since they're already required to take a 15-hour course and pass a test, is the food sanitation manager (especially since the issue often pertains to the health of the customer.) They should be in charge of training FOH staff to handle these questions in the same way they are hopefully teaching HACCP to the back of house staff.

A side-benefit of this (even though I know this isn't what you're advocating) is that I'd bet it would result in more FOH staff knowing enough to proactively inform their customers of those ingredients in their restaurant's food that are more frequently the "red flag" ones, which would please me a great deal.

davecamaro1994 wrote:aren't oreo cookies made with lard?

Not any more. They stopped using lard sometime in the mid-90s.

davecamaro1994 wrote:lard and pizza....hmmm sounds tasty

It is. I've had it here.

I don't think many folks think about food as much as the folks here do. That said, I can think of folks with dietary restrictions on meat (be they religious, social, or other reasons) that would never think to ask about the stock of a vegetable soup or whether the pie crust, french fries, or apple fritters were made with animal bits.

I do and after this thread I'm even more vigilant.

The problem is the vegetarians I know are not dogmatic. They enjoy time out at restaurants with their family,colleagues, and friends. They don't insist that every meal out is at the vegetarian/vegan restaurant. They date, love, and marry people who eat meat. They know, even if they don't want to think about it, that their food, in most restaurants, is cooked with vessels that held animals.

Heck, I've ripped the faces off of living creatures (soft-shell crabs) to serve them to my husband. He told me they were great. I told him I couldn't do that ever again and I didn't become a vegetarian for animal rights reasons.

FWIW, we serve our dog the raw diet. So plenty of other animals get sacrificed for my dog to eat what we consider the optimal diet for her. Just ask Pat and John Sondgeroth of Heartland Meats, I'm their best vegetarian customer.

I like the highfalutin places that ask if there are any allergies or dietary restrictions. Someday that may well trickle down to the Mom & Pop venues. I don't think that is a bad thing. It's a way of showing care for your customers.

It's no different than having a host ask if there is anything you don't like, not whether you have an allergy or dietary restriction. No one wants to serve or prepare a meal for folks to discover the thought of eating tongue, pig's blood, or intestines is enough to make their guests vomit & scream. Many can't stomach the thought of eating young animals (lamb, chicks, or veal). There are certainly plenty of meat eaters who would never in a million years eat young animals or organs by choice. Most of the non-food loving world is more than willing to accommodate those folks. I don't see it being too big of a deal to accommodate those that don't want to eat animals, especially if you are in the business of serving food.

Combining two recent threads, the late lamented (Keith) Floyd on Food and friend discuss lard in pizza dough and vegetarians, while exchanging double entendres and a few glasses of merlot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dICK7bxa ... A4BA491E01

Culinary joy.

Santander wrote:Combining two recent threads, the late lamented (Keith) Floyd on Food and friend discuss lard in pizza dough and vegetarians, while exchanging double entendres and a few glasses of merlot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dICK7bxa ... A4BA491E01

Culinary joy.

Lovely tribute.

Funny & docking + plates into the oven for pizza. Is that for real? Wow!