The Trib survey really is very amusing. Besides the ridiculous cut-and-paste, you also have to write in (or separately cut-and-paste) a subject line! Then the questions all ask about various sections by their names--which I've really never paid much attention to, so my answers probably aren't very reliable since I didn't have a Wednesday paper in front of me and the on-line version doesn't seem to include the section names. If others are going to take it (and I think we should, and take it seriously) it might be worth it to dig through the recyling for an old paper or wait till tomorrow.

There's also no section for additional comments but since this was very much a DIY project by this point, I added one. Here's what I said before I was interrupted for a ride home.

You don't ask for additional comments, but here they are. I want more local stories, fewer national stories. I want great cooks I haven't heard of, not more about fancy chefs who already have their own tv shows. I want great neighborhood restaurants. I want to learn how to shop for African (or Indian, or Korean) groceries, and where, and a recipe to try out once I've shopped. I want to know about the Polish restaurants where the newest immigrants are going, and how it is that Argentinean gelato has come to Chicago. I want to learn more about old time Chicago bakeries, and what they make that's unique and not from the same mix as every other Chicago bakery. I want an inside tour of Gonella, or Scala, or Vienna Beef--and the noodle companies of Chinatown and the tortilla factories of Pilsen. I want great recipes for the vegetables that are in abundance at the Farmer's Market this week, especially if they're something like kale that I might not buy otherwise.
I want nothing that came from a PR firm for some agribusiness giant. I want no tastings of frozen chicken wings branded with the names of theme restaurants--and in fact nothing about theme restaurants at all!

I think I'm going to write as my comments on the survey: "I want you to hire Ann Fisher"

Ann Fisher wrote:The Trib survey really is very amusing. Besides the ridiculous cut-and-paste, you also have to write in (or separately cut-and-paste) a subject line! Then the questions all ask about various sections by their names--which I've really never paid much attention to, so my answers probably aren't very reliable since I didn't have a Wednesday paper in front of me and the on-line version doesn't seem to include the section names. If others are going to take it (and I think we should, and take it seriously) it might be worth it to dig through the recyling for an old paper or wait till tomorrow.

There's also no section for additional comments but since this was very much a DIY project by this point, I added one. Here's what I said before I was interrupted for a ride home.

You don't ask for additional comments, but here they are. I want more local stories, fewer national stories. I want great cooks I haven't heard of, not more about fancy chefs who already have their own tv shows. I want great neighborhood restaurants. I want to learn how to shop for African (or Indian, or Korean) groceries, and where, and a recipe to try out once I've shopped. I want to know about the Polish restaurants where the newest immigrants are going, and how it is that Argentinean gelato has come to Chicago. I want to learn more about old time Chicago bakeries, and what they make that's unique and not from the same mix as every other Chicago bakery. I want an inside tour of Gonella, or Scala, or Vienna Beef--and the noodle companies of Chinatown and the tortilla factories of Pilsen. I want great recipes for the vegetables that are in abundance at the Farmer's Market this week, especially if they're something like kale that I might not buy otherwise.
I want nothing that came from a PR firm for some agribusiness giant. I want no tastings of frozen chicken wings branded with the names of theme restaurants--and in fact nothing about theme restaurants at all!

One of the best posts I've read in a long time ...

Three comments:

First, thanks to Bill Daley for volunteering to play ombudsman here for a moment and take a few tomatoes from the audience, which isn't his job I'm sure. I hope this doesn't scare off any other press folk who hang around from participating. We are your engaged readers/listeners/viewers, the ones you want!

Second, I understand what he's saying about Metromix. Even the best such collection of listings can be invalidated on this or that point in a single day, and I can't see any newspaper justifying the salary of a full-time listing checker (a job which no one would keep for more than two days anyway). It's just a fact, if you're going to be seriously inconvenienced by something if it doesn't work out, you need to make the call yourself and not trust any third party.

Third, I do incline toward agreeing with Ann Fisher. The thing is I know what the obvious answer back is-- "The food section isn't just for you obsessed food crazies, it's for everybody, and most people aren't as educated/insane as you." There's truth in that, I never begrudge Cheap Eats the occasional review of, say, a sandwich place in the Loop, because that's part of what readers want, God knows I worked in the Loop and used such info as I compartmentalized my dining choices into "actually good" and "acceptable/convenient." But there comes a point when keeping things appealing to a mass audience by using celebrities, topics of lowest common appeal, etc. means you're creating a food section (or a sports section or an editorial page) for the people who aren't very interested in something rather than for the people who are very interested in it-- and that's crazy. That's chasing the people who don't especially want to be there and ignoring the ones who do. There are great food stories out there (and certainly the Trib has printed many such)-- and to my mind, great storytelling will trump any other hook a newspaper has to get and keep readers.

Amen. I wish I had said that. We're talking about a respected newspaper in a great, great food town, but the food section of the Trib lags behind nearly every major market daily. How about more original feature stories, and fewer "newsfomercials" for products and personalities that already have a budget and a publicist. I'm not sure who's making the content decisions, but I don't like many of them. Exceptions exist: Eng and Rice mostly (though both are scarce now). Really, the Tribune Co, owns papers in other cities with better food content. I hate to admit it, but the readership in certain other coastal cities ask for more and get it. Perhaps that explains the combination of Chicago being alternately overlooked then "discovered" by writers in other cities. I've seen solid work from writers in NY, SF and LA over the past few years *about Chicago* on topics such as those Ann noted. Great stuff based on nothing more than long weekend visits. (I've linked to these before, things like the Chronicle writer doing a rundown of Devon places or J. Gold waxing on about South Side jerk stands) And who gets to read it? People in California and Long Island.

As a consumer, I'd like more for my money from those who get paid to give/shape opinions and provide information.

I certainly hope Ann Fisher's comments made it through...but I'll copy and send them on to the bosses just in case. Thanks, Ann, very thoughtful.
Bill Daley

Then there's the whole issue of totally phony sources, like the supposed "Roscoe Village attorneys" in today's story about wine clubs.

(joke)

Mike G wrote:Three comments:

First, thanks to Bill Daley for volunteering to play ombudsman here for a moment and take a few tomatoes from the audience, which isn't his job I'm sure. I hope this doesn't scare off any other press folk who hang around from participating. We are your engaged readers/listeners/viewers, the ones you want!

Thank you, Mike G, for the kind words....And thank you for remembering the food section is aimed at general interest readers...that doesn't mean it has to be bland or boring or expected but you've got to factor in maximum reach. It's like when I used to review restaurants in Connecticut. The reviews that got the greatest response by far were those for burger joints and weinie stands, not the 4-star joints. I think the fun thing and the hard thing to do is to take something that may seem inaccessible or too inside foodie circles and present it and explain it so everyone can understand it. But then you stand accused of dumbing things down (never mind that 1000's of readers just had a "a-ha!" moment); can't win either way.

"The food section isn't just for you obsessed food crazies, it's for everybody, and most people aren't as educated/insane as you."

The fact is a long time ago, the Chicago Tribune did have a special insert weekly called, 'Taste.' in the late 70's into the early 80's. This was a special insert on Monday, like the food section is a special insert on Wednesday, which had very good local writing as well as columnists like Roy Andries De Groot's. I still have clippings from that section, which are 20+ years old that I occasionally reread when looking for something else in my files. Everyone who is critical of the Tribune would be chirping local pride if Taste still existed.

Taste was ahead of its' time, a cutting edge effort from the Tribune. I would assume it would still be here if it was reader and/or advertiser supported. I read the newspaper, I am not at the business end, though I do read the comics (plus a lot more). Periodically the mix of comics offered changes, due to reader response to surveys. So as inconveniently layed out as this survey may be, it behooves us to respond otherwise they can only guestimate.

What pays for the Food Section? It's an expense which is justified by advertiser dollars. It's your big box grocery stores like Jewel and Dominicks who fuel the Food Section. Why not compliment their support and suggest to them the kinds of articles you would like to see in their advertiser-dollar-supported Food Section. Income from those big boxes are important to the Tribune, they can be called upon to support some of the changes you may like to see. Of course, if you shop there and they see the effectiveness of their advertising dollar, well it certainly helps. There is value to the old saying, "You attract more with sugar than with vinegar."

We are lucky to have many resources for food information. In my mailbox is Saveur, Cook's Illustrated and the Art of Eating (just subscribed); which I know I am not alone doing. Locally, we have dynamic associations like the Culinary Historians and Slow Food; which are not overwhelmingly supported by us. In the end, we do have each other to detect, explore and highlight the food scene in Chicago; which is a substantial asset.

So we really do have the best of all worlds available to us.

I would add that some here likely have the writing chops and expertise to submit freelance pieces to some of these major media outlets. I usually am not one to say "if you don't like it, do something about it", but I think it applies here.

Apologies if this has been said in this thread--i've skimmed.

From today's Metromix:

Sweeten your night with honey mead

Isn't that rather redundant redundant?

sti wrote:I would add that some here likely have the writing chops and expertise to submit freelance pieces to some of these major media outlets. I usually am not one to say "if you don't like it, do something about it", but I think it applies here.

Apologies if this has been said in this thread--i've skimmed.

I totally agree. Last year someone lamented there are no good food writers in Chicago. Our favorite, and maybe only, poster from Atlanta, Steve Drucker replied with a wonderful response highlighting various posters and their writing style. He included quite a number of people and quite accurately characterized their writing style.

I was more than a little surprised to find myself in there, though I loved the characterization: "Cathy2 does the slice of life ..., " which I immediately copied the url to send to friends and family. Especially my family because they are not always too thrilled when I document their reactions. CH Moderators were on laser focused mode that day and pulled the post in less than hour. Double darn, I never copied what he wrote.

However, sometimes it takes someone who is one step away to point out the obvious: we have a treasure trove of good food writers in our midsts.

Regards,

Amata wrote:Hey, Bob S and Bill D,

I apologize if what I said above antagonized either or both of you. Coming from an academic background, I take the position that everything published -- on paper and on the web -- should strive for 100% accuracy. Otherwise what's the point? The fact that this ideal is seldom completely achieved doesn't mean that we should stop trying, or that it's wrong to desire accurate information.

I actually like Metromix: the idea of it is great, the execution is pretty good (certainly miles above a lot of the garbage out there on the internet). I love the feature of finding out what's within .25 mile, etc. If I didn't like it as much as I do, I wouldn't bother making suggestions for improvement. I just wish it were better, that's all.

Bill, let me echo Aaron's sentiments and say again that I'm really glad you are participating in this forum. Hearing about issues from your point of view is quite enlightening, and I hope others from the Tribune (and elsewhere) will join the conversation as well.

Amata

Please consider your gracious apology graciously accepted. As for

Coming from an academic background, I take the position that everything published -- on paper and on the web -- should strive for 100% accuracy.

Again, I'm a fact-checker (albeit primarily a copy editor -- fact checking is its own specialty, which my magazine can't afford), and coming from a journalistic background, I agree with you. The issue isn't that people aren't striving to be 100% accurate. Again, as Bill pointed out, it can come down to "No one's come in here in two hours; let's call it a night now" or an uncountable number of other factors. Or it can come down to no one telling the source of information that things have changed.

And sometimes changes work out -- as I noted elsewhere recently, friends and I were informed Saturday night of a three-hour wait for a seat at a strip-mall Mexican restaurant, so we went to Campagnola, where I had one of the best meals of my life; that serendipity may not have worked out had we called the Mexican restaurant in advance (after being turned away, Campagnola was our third choice, and we chose it only because it was closest to our homes). It can be tough when expectations are high, but sometimes you come out ahead rolling with the punches. :)

Mike G wrote:Then there's the whole issue of totally phony sources, like the supposed "Roscoe Village attorneys" in today's story about wine clubs.

(joke)

I just had a heart attack! Don't joke like that.

"Taste was ahead of its' time, a cutting edge effort from the Tribune. I would assume it would still be here if it was reader and/or advertiser supported."

There's something to that, for sure, and it's a little sad. I believe folks will read and enjoy challenging, interesting articles about any number of topics, regardless of their expertise or connoisseurship. At some level, there has been a value judgment about what topics are worthy of serious exposition, regardless of the bottom line.

Really, who's buying the paper or advertising in it because of top-notch architecture criticism? Yet, Blair Kamin has a place, thank goodness.

I was under the impression that this article was actually published in the RedEye - so it's not just an issue of metromix fact checking/attribution/copyright but print attribution as well.....Can anyone confirm that this was or wasn't in the RedEye on Monday?

I think that the expectations of a print newpaper to provide a good food section that is going to satisfy everyone is unrealistic. It would be the equivalent of hijacking a Amish horse and buggy and complaining that you can't hit 60 mph.

You have perhaps 12 pages of which at least half are dedicated to ads. Then you have to cover recipes, restaurants, and all the other essentials. Focus on the small restaurants and you lose interest of some.

Personally, I dropped the Tribune last month because the Trib gives Kosovo better coverage than McHenry County. Also, more often than not, I was tossing the paper without opening it 4-5 days a week. I subscribed to the Northwest Herald - that will be cancelled in a couple of weeks due to the large number of factual errors in the sports section in ONE issue.

I can get on the internet and read dozens of food sections and derive 10x more information in 45 minutes than I can get from any one paper. And I am not talking about the "foo-foo" NY Times/LA Times/WA Post. No, I do better in some of the regionals - the Deseret News, OC Register, Detroit News, Las Vegas Review Journal, etc. and of course, the Wall Street Journal.

Personally, I like the Cheap Eats article each week. They have some very good recommendations. However, the quality drops for the week after an article as the place gets swamped.

I like the ads in the Sun_times food section better.

I have the same comment about Reader listings. They're still showing Ed's Japanese Steak House, which was replaced by the excellent, overlooked Papillion at least two or three years ago.

Coming in late in this discussion (and late at night at the office) to say I've corrected that; thanks for pointing it out. And if anyone sees any other mistakes in the Reader's database (which is big, and I'm the only person regularly fact-checking and updating the blurbs), please please please email me at aalani@chicagoreader.com.

Thanks.