I was priced out of the farmer's mkts. 13-14 years ago I could show up at the end of the day, fill up 6-10 cases of produce and pay $60-80 for it all. (never berries though, they've always been expensive due to their perishability) Otherwise the product would spoil before the next market day. I could also charge under $12 for entrees. I'm glad the farmers are making money now as I considered many of them friends and not just business acquaintances; visiting their farms, inquiring about their families, etc. But I just can't afford it anymore. Maxwell street was good for scoring deals, but I'm not a fan of its current incarnation. Now I grow a large fruit & vegetable garden to augment my produce purchases, but I still question whether I'm saving much money when tomatoes can be had for $10 a case in season. Of course mine are better

I can't remember who it was now, but there was a rather prominent restauranteur in Chicago @ 20 years ago that owned a farm that supplied his tomatoes, etc. Anyone remember who this was?

aschie30 wrote:

Kennyz wrote:I do think he makes an important point somewhere amidst either the blog posts or comments . . . [t]he important point is that locavores are sometimes too hesitant to criticize their own. I noticed one chef this Saturday pleading to farmers about the same complaint I always have: pick and sell some freakin’ ripe peaches already! But often it’s just a big love fest, with chefs, bloggers, farmers and trend seekers supporting and patting themselves on the back for a job middlingly done.

Kenny - That's your point; not Joe C.'s. You're speculating about Joe C.'s....

He quotes this piece from the NYT and then says "I couldn't have said it better myself."

NY Times wrote:There can be an element of fundamentalism about any movement, and locavorism is not exempt. Fundamentalism rejects criticism, any criticism, and rejects questioning, period. When we stop asking questions, and when we refuse to listen to the intention behind the question, we stop being interested in anyone other than ourselves...

I think he, the Times, and I are essentially saying the same thing in this regard.

Kennyz wrote:He quotes this piece from the NYT and then says "I couldn't have said it better myself."

NY Times wrote:There can be an element of fundamentalism about any movement, and locavorism is not exempt. Fundamentalism rejects criticism, any criticism, and rejects questioning, period. When we stop asking questions, and when we refuse to listen to the intention behind the question, we stop being interested in anyone other than ourselves...

Kenny -- that's piece No. 2. "Farmer's Markets are Bull$%&!", which is what we were discussing, was his original piece, and was published last week. Piece No. 2 was published today, after Chicago Food Snob has had the benefit of having the weaknesses and shoddy research of Piece No. 1 pointed out to him. So what does he do instead? He backtracks, and leans on a NY Times piece that was published last week (that is, in and of itself flawed, but that's a different discussion).

I'm going back to the Beet to comment further, but I think this is still someone who shot from the hip, and really didn't know what he was attacking. Now that he's been called out, he's trying to tighten up his points, but I think you're being very, very generous, in attributing him as having some greater, legitimate point, and not giving yourself enough credit by aligning his views with those of your own.

aschie30 wrote:

Kennyz wrote:He quotes this piece from the NYT and then says "I couldn't have said it better myself."

NY Times wrote:There can be an element of fundamentalism about any movement, and locavorism is not exempt. Fundamentalism rejects criticism, any criticism, and rejects questioning, period. When we stop asking questions, and when we refuse to listen to the intention behind the question, we stop being interested in anyone other than ourselves...

Kenny -- that's piece No. 2. "Farmer's Markets are Bull$%&!", which is what we were discussing,....

No Wendy, that's what you are discussing. I, as I stated, am discussing "either the blog posts or comments, all of which have become way too circumlocutious to follow."

Kennyz wrote:No Wendy, that's what you are discussing. I, as I stated, am discussing "either the blog posts or comments, all of which have become way too circumlocutious to follow."

For those with circumlucutionitis:

Original Post w/link to original article, and reference to comments in original article.

And by "we," I meant, "we" as in LTH.

aschie30 wrote:Kenny -- that's piece No. 2. "Farmer's Markets are Bull$%&!", which is what we were discussing, was his original piece, and was published last week. Piece No. 2 was published today, after Chicago Food Snob has had the benefit of having the weaknesses and shoddy research of Piece No. 1 pointed out to him. So what does he do instead? He backtracks, and leans on a NY Times piece that was published last week (that is, in and of itself flawed, but that's a different discussion). .

Let's see. He published an article, then paid attention to the backlash, even participating actively in the discussion that ensued. Then he published a second article backtracking a bit because he recognized that the original one had weaknesses. And your response to all of that is to disregard the second piece and focus only on blasting him for what he originally wrote? You are making his point.

Kennyz wrote:

aschie30 wrote:Kenny -- that's piece No. 2. "Farmer's Markets are Bull$%&!", which is what we were discussing, was his original piece, and was published last week. Piece No. 2 was published today, after Chicago Food Snob has had the benefit of having the weaknesses and shoddy research of Piece No. 1 pointed out to him. So what does he do instead? He backtracks, and leans on a NY Times piece that was published last week (that is, in and of itself flawed, but that's a different discussion). .

Let's see. He published an article, then paid attention to the backlash, even participating actively in the discussion that ensued. Then he published a second article backtracking a bit because he recognized that the original one had weaknesses. And your response to all of that is to disregard the second piece and focus only on blasting him for what he originally wrote? You are making his point.

I don't think the second piece is much of an improvement; less inflammatory rhetoric, yes; an attempt at more level-headed discussion, yes, but he still fails at making any salient points that have not been made before, and certainly does not make the case that Farmer's Markets -- as a general proposition -- are bullshit in Chicago. (And he takes the oddest turn in Piece No. 2 by advocating that we need more farmer's markets -- which suck, mind you -- in food deserts. Not a point any locavore would dispute, but I wonder why, if they're so bad, we should need more of them, not less.)

I'm all for level-headed discussion about eating local; amongst my peers, some of whom eat local and some not, I've been the first to criticize the GCM for certain things. But a poorly written, poorly researched piece that flames farmer's markets in general, I do not regret taking him to task for that, even if some -- namely, you -- will accuse me of being an unwavering locavore as a result. Peace, my friend. I think we're more on the same side than you will ever be with Joe C.

Hi- When I read his blog, I thought it would generate some lively discussion here, and I was certainly right about that.

I read part 2, and he still did not make any convincing arguments. Concerning the lack of farmer's markets in food deserts, part of the reason is due to the fact that until this year, none of the FM sponsored by the City of Chicago, took LINK cards. For a few years, the city required that any farmer that wanted to sell at one of the farmer's markets, also sell at a less desirable market. When none of the farmer's markets took LINK cards, the farmers that sold in the poorer neighborhoods were lucky if they took in $100 for the whole day. From what I understand people that wanted to sell at Federal Plaza, or one of the other profitable markets, were just paying their entrance fees for the unprofitable markets, and not showing up. The city does not have that requirement anymore, because only a few farmers were showing up in the poor neighborhoods. Hope this helps, Nancy

Know what. I drive fairly regularly across North Avenue, Chicago or Division from Oak Park to various parts in the Chicago. I've yet to see a molecular gastronomy restaurant. Restaurants suck!

aschie30 wrote:For those who complain about prices at the GCM, go to a different farmer's market.

Or, just go to a different market period. I just ran in to Lincolnwood Produce to pick up a couple of items and I saw some really nice, ripe Michigan tomatoes for $.49/lb. If I wasn't already overwhelmed with my own tomato crop, I would have stocked up. I'll bet the same or similar deal could be had right now at Fresh Farms, Marketplace on Oakton, Caputo's or at most of the other good ethnic markets across the city.

Edited to fix typo

I dont think Chicago's Farmers markets are b.s.( i dont live in a world of generalizations & blanket statements), with that said I do prefer the farmers markets I go to in Naperville, and Ottawa, vs GCM and really prefer actually going out to the farms or their roadside farmstands even more.

stevez wrote:Or, just go to a decent market period.

I meant to say go to a different market period. I didn't mean to cast aspersions on GCM, which I both enjoy and support. I'm going to edit this in my original post.

stevez wrote:

aschie30 wrote:For those who complain about prices at the GCM, go to a different farmer's market.

Or, just go to a decent market period. I just ran in to Lincolnwood Produce to pick up a couple of items and I saw some really nice, ripe Michigan tomatoes for $.49/lb. If I wasn't already overwhelmed with my own tomato crop, I would have stocked up. I'll bet the same or similar deal could be had right now at Fresh Farms, Marketplace on Oakton, Caputo's or at most of the other good ethnic markets across the city.

Very true SteveZ. I try to track these things weekly at the Local Beet too, mostly based on what I see in the grocery flyers.

Why your best local celery may be found right now at Jewel

Hi- The reason I buy most of my produce at the Evanston market, is because I know that all my money is directly going to go to the farmer. I also get to ask the farmer what variety it is, and I can ask for a sample. You can not ask for a sample at Dominick's or Jewel. I know enough about peaches, that all I have to do is ask what variety of peaches they are selling, to determine whether I want to buy them, or buy from a different farmer. This last Saturday I bought some Allstar peaches, and I knew they would be good. Somebody else was selling some white peaches, and when I asked if they were Blushing Star peaches, she did not know. Blushing Star peaches are also wonderful.

I have lots of tomatoes in my garden right now, so I do not need to buy any. 49 cents was a good price for Michigan tomatoes, but all they had for that price was plum tomatoes, right? At the farmer's market, I have 20 different varieties of tomatoes to choose from, and most of the growers have free samples, so I can try it before I buy it.

I can also get things at the Evanston farmer's market that I can't find at Dominick's or Jewel. This last Saturday at the Evanston market, Henry had fresh soybeans. I highly recommend them. There were also lots of different melons to choose from. I bought a Korean watermelon from Green Acres. Yum. They were $3 a melon.

I would rather spend lots of money at the farmer's market, than on junk food and hamburger meat from some factory farm. Hope this helps, Nancy

aschie30 wrote:I'm all for level-headed discussion about eating local; amongst my peers, some of whom eat local and some not, I've been the first to criticize the GCM for certain things. But a poorly written, poorly researched piece that flames farmer's markets in general, I do not regret taking him to task for that, even if some -- namely, you -- will accuse me of being an unwavering locavore as a result. Peace, my friend. I think we're more on the same side than you will ever be with Joe C.

You're not an unwavering locavore. I'm not even sure what one of those would look like. I don’t even know what side Joe from GEB is on. As you noted, he thinks farmer's markets are bullshit but also thinks we need more of them. I guess I sort of agree with that. More of them, and better ones.

I do wish The Local Beet or some other website/ publication that writes passionately in favor of local food would report with just a little more balance. Sure, we get the occasional local celery is too strong piece, but for the most part it's one great local thing after the next. Where's the site or publication that does an honest critique of the local scene? You know, like - peaches from these 3 farms suck, so get the peaches from these other 2 farms. Or, this restaurant may be passionate about local food but they don't know how to cook. Or, there's some really shitty mozzarella being produced around town, but we hear that someone's working on something better. Or, this nervy farm is charging twice as much as anyone else for potatoes that are no better. I think such a site or publication might actually serve to improve things.

But maybe there's just no market for or interest in that kind of discussion. I am frequently criticized by members of this forum for being "too harsh" on restaurants that I write about. Maybe this corner of the internet is just filled with people who want only to be nice to everyone else: accentuate the positive, brush aside the negative. I suppose that can be a good thing too.

NFriday wrote:I would rather spend lots of money at the farmer's market, than on junk food and hamburger meat from some factory farm.

I would rather clean the bathroom, than get kicked in the face. I would rather go to work than, have a root canal.

Fortunately for the rest of us, there is plenty of gray area between the extreme black and white of "spend lots of money at the farmer's market" and "junk food and hamburger meat from some factory farm" where many financially-reasonable options can be found: ethnic markets, CSAs, good produce days at Stanley's, the odd rare gem at Jewel or Dominick's, the occasional sale at Whole Foods, etc..

stevez wrote:

aschie30 wrote:For those who complain about prices at the GCM, go to a different farmer's market.

Or, just go to a different market period. I just ran in to Lincolnwood Produce to pick up a couple of items and I saw some really nice, ripe Michigan tomatoes for $.49/lb. If I wasn't already overwhelmed with my own tomato crop, I would have stocked up. I'll bet the same or similar deal could be had right now at Fresh Farms, Marketplace on Oakton, Caputo's or at most of the other good ethnic markets across the city.

Edited to fix typo

Hey, where were you when I was complaining about the lack of good tomatoes in even independent grocery stores? I was just at Lincolnwood Produce and apparently just missed these (though I did get pattypan squash, something I often go to farmers markets for)

Sorry, while I know there are all kinds of reasons behind farmers markets and why people go there, I also can't help but see parallels to the Petit Hameau.

Mhays wrote:Hey, where were you when I was complaining about the lack of good tomatoes in even independent grocery stores? I was just at Lincolnwood Produce and apparently just missed these (though I did get pattypan squash, something I often go to farmers markets for)

Most of my friends who have been growing tomatoes from seeds for years have been complaining all month about how bad their tomatoes were this year. My father was ranting for ten minutes on that subject this morning and he has been growing the tomatoes the same way for years.

NFriday wrote:I have lots of tomatoes in my garden right now, so I do not need to buy any. 49 cents was a good price for Michigan tomatoes, but all they had for that price was plum tomatoes, right?

No. These are meaty, beaty, big and bouncy "beefsteak" types of tomatoes. They have plum tomatoes, too, but I didn't see the price of those. Get 'em while you can.

Kennyz wrote:I do wish The Local Beet or some other website/ publication that writes passionately in favor of local food would report with just a little more balance. Sure, we get the occasional local celery is too strong piece, but for the most part it's one great local thing after the next. Where's the site or publication that does an honest critique of the local scene? You know, like - peaches from these 3 farms suck, so get the peaches from these other 2 farms. Or, this restaurant may be passionate about local food but they don't know how to cook. Or, there's some really shitty mozzarella being produced around town, but we hear that someone's working on something better. Or, this nervy farm is charging twice as much as anyone else for potatoes that are no better. I think such a site or publication might actually serve to improve things.

But maybe there's just no market for or interest in that kind of discussion. I am frequently criticized by members of this forum for being "too harsh" on restaurants that I write about. Maybe this corner of the internet is just filled with people who want only to be nice to everyone else: accentuate the positive, brush aside the negative. I suppose that can be a good thing too.

I'm sure Rob will address your comments more, but I always speak honestly about the products I support. In response to someone else's comments (might have been Rob's) about local mozzarella, I have commented on this site, at least, about a certain product I didn't like. There are better products that are produced locally, and I'm working on a post about that. But I'm a firm believer in the market. If you don't like the peaches, don't buy them. Tell the farmer why. I mean, you're allowed to try the peaches before buying, if you think they suck, then don't buy them. If I were to publish an article, say, in July, saying XYZ three farmer's peaches suck -- I would be doing a serious and woefully ignorant disservice. Not only do crops change over time, but they can change from week to week. That is the very essence of market buying, and exactly why you don't write a piece like that. The farmers aren't trying to rip you off -- they're dealing with Mother Nature as well as business concerns. Alice Waters would have a lot to say to you about market buying if she read something like that.

The same goes with cheese. If you don't like the cheese, don't buy it. If you think it's too expensive, don't buy it. But others might not agree with you, and are willing to pay the price. So I don't feel the need to create an entire post based on products that are not up to my standards, or slaying farmers that, in my opinion, charge too much. What may be up to your standards, may not be up to mine, and vice versa. We all can have opinions, and the opinions vary wildly. Let the market decide.

In some ways, I feel like local food is held to a higher standard by some. I don't think local food needs an "honest critique" because it's criticized every single day. It needs support. Look at Chicago Food Snob, the latest example, is at the end of a long line of people who routinely criticize its prices (which are set by market), its sustainability, where its sold, who its sold by, the clothes worn by the people who attend the markets, who buys this food, and whether we could feed people in Africa based on local and sustainability farm features. What purpose will a "critique" serve except kvetching?

One of the objects of The Local Beet is to support the folks who are fighting the good fight. Keeping in mind that the GCM -- the flagship farmer's market -- has only been around a small number of years, and that for decades, we've all relied upon large supermarkets to provide our food, it's as if we're starting over (or trying to trace our practices back to a time long ago -- at least in the 1st half of the prior century). As a result, many of the farmers are adjusting their practices (or finding new markets for lower yield, but responsible organic practices for higher-cost produce), and new, fledgling companies are opening to respond to this "new" food market. Let's keep in mind that, not too long ago, Hoosier Mama was a mere market seller. And the local mozzarella makers -- many are new, getting their feet wet, or making inroads into new areas. TLB's mission is to support the good things that they do, not snarkily put them down. If I taste a cheese I don't care for, I'll let them know (sometimes) directly, but I won't write about it. I take the same approach with local wine. It's not being dishonest, but it's choosing to help businesses make their way. And one of the great things about writing for TLB is developing relationships with these businesses, which hopefully you can help influence and support in a positive way.

Hi- I am just saying that 2/3rds of the money I spend on groceries in the summer time, is spent at the Farmer's markets. I spend way more than the average person, but that is just money I do not spend on other stuff that some people cannot live without, such as frozen pizza, chips and beer. I know there are a lot of beer lovers here, and it is fine if that's what you like. I am not a big beer lover. That was a really good price for beefsteak tomatoes. Thanks, Nancy

Hi- It is not a good idea for the local beet to publish which farmer's have the best peaches. The quality of peaches changes from day to day, and I would be concerned about liability issues if I posted that a particular farmer had the worst peaches in the world. You can always ask for a sample, and if you do not like the peaches a particular grower is selling, you can always buy from someone else.

There are things that are not right that I see going on at the Evanston market, but I would never mention which growers are selling Red Haven peaches in September that are not that variety. There is also somebody there that sells Western cherries, and tells people that they are homegrown, but I am just asking for trouble mentioning their name.

As just mentioned, a lot of the reasons farmers are selling at the markets, is because the chain stores do not want to sell local produce. We sell absolutely no peaches to the chains. All of our peaches are sold at our fruitstand or through our upick, or are sold to other fruit stands such as the Elegent Farmer, or Jansen's. When I was home at the end of July, one of the farmers who sells at GCM, raises peaches, but had a customer that needed 6o half bushels of peaches. This particular farmer did not have that many peaches, and so my sister sold him the peaches he needed, and the grower delivered them to the festival. It might have been lollapalooza. My sister was not sure.

Thanks, Nancy

Yes, if your goal is to serve local farms and build a market for them to serve, you probably shouldn't be too hard on them. And that is a fine goal for anyone to have. But it would be just as fine if someone else had their primary goal be to serve readers looking for the best local stuff. For at least 4 years in a row Iron Creek Farm has been charging 2 F-in bucks for a single bell pepper that tastes like absolutely nothing. I wish some website or publication would have the balls to publish that. I have nothing against the people that own Iron Creek, but if I were a journalist they would not be my target audience.

Kennyz wrote:Yes, if your goal is to serve local farms and build a market for them to serve, you probably shouldn't be too hard on them. And that is a fine goal for anyone to have. But it would be just as fine if someone else had their primary goal be to serve readers looking for the best local stuff. For at least 4 years in a row Iron Creek Farm has been charging 2 F-in bucks for a single bell pepper that tastes like absolutely nothing. I wish some website or publication would have the balls to publish that. I have nothing against the people that own Iron Creek, but if I were a journalist they would not be my target audience.

Nobody said TLB's "goal" was to "serve" farms -- supporting people who are doing good things is hardly indentured servitude. Likewise, Iron Creek is not anyone's "target audience," but geez, Kenny, if you think the peppers they're selling are too expensive, then don't buy the peppers, but you don't have to start a smear campaign and try to take them down. They're setting their prices for what they think the market will bear. If they get that money, well that's it then. Dominick's gets about the same amount for bad peppers too, but because they're the standard, and not the newbies, everyone's okay with them.

Which brings me to my next point -- how deeply ingrained the notion of cheap food is in our psyches. Our system is based on cheaply produced -- but vastly inferior products. People are so accustomed to going to the grocery store and not having to think about what they're buying. So what the peaches you wanted weren't picked at the time you'd like, and one stand's peppers are too expensive. That's market buying in its purest form! It doesn't mean the whole system is bad, and should go to hell, and that the vendors are rip-off artists. As many people who have commented on TLB and here have said, repeatedly (especially Nancy) -- vendors and their products vary depending upon the day and time. Strike deals on seconds, go at the end of the day, go to smaller markets, decline to buy if it's not the price you want. This is how disconnected we are with our food. We expect the very first peaches and tomatoes to be perfect, when in reality, they vary. But in two weeks, they may be better. Or maybe not. It's a bad season. Despite the Dominick's and Wal-mart mantra, we cannot snap our fingers at any time and have exactly want we want (or what we think we want).

I have a theory -- not novel -- that one of the reasons that, as a culture, we're so hooked on a cheap meat & fried foods is because at least 2 generations have subsisted in urban and suburban areas that have not tasted "real" fruits and vegetables. After so many underripe strawberries and greenish blueberries shipped from points unknown, you subconsciously give up. In a way, LAZ's BLT thread is inspiring -- every Greek Diner sandwich I've had on various coasts and for as long as I can remember served exactly the sort of hard industrial tomatoes LAZ described (sorry, LAZ, but the mythical ripe tomato slicer is just that). But, now that market tomatoes are becoming more prevalent, it's flipped a switch in some people's minds -- and they expect better, even from a low-cost, industrial food supply place like a diner.

If we want to take back our food system, we have to take on some responsibility for it. Learning about the seasons, agriculture, and market economics; taking a more active role in obtaining your food. That means interacting with the vendors, buying smartly and wisely, and educatedly. That's what our little corner of locavorism at TLB is trying to achieve.

aschie30 wrote:sorry, LAZ, but the mythical ripe tomato slicer is just that

Then I'm mythical, too, because I've seen them demonstrated.

Was this guy trying to be confrontational? Of course. But there is a point in there.

I go to GCM almost every weekend. It is a treat for my family and I. It is very expensive. The people who run and shop there are a self-selected group with similar mores and thought patterns.

For example the scientific evidence that organic food is better for you is really not there. But it makes people feel virtuous to buy local, organic and seasonal and thus people are willing to pay a premium. Attending the market - especially GCM - is a way to signal to others that you "get" the truth about local, seasonal and organic and how that is virtuous. Just like various cars and clothes are signalling devices about the kind of person one considers themselves to be, GCM is another.

And what is the deal with all the gals wearing the Wellington boots to GCM? It is a bit messy but we really do not stand in muck up to our calves, ladies.

AngrySarah wrote:For example the scientific evidence that organic food is better for you is really not there. But it makes people feel virtuous to buy local, organic and seasonal and thus people are willing to pay a premium. Attending the market - especially GCM - is a way to signal to others that you "get" the truth about local, seasonal and organic and how that is virtuous. Just like various cars and clothes are signalling devices about the kind of person one considers themselves to be, GCM is another.

Regardless of the fact that there are ample scientific studies showing greater nutritional benefts in organic food (as in studies cited on LTH and the Local Beet)?

AngrySarah wrote:Was this guy trying to be confrontational? Of course. But there is a point in there.

I go to GCM almost every weekend. It is a treat for my family and I. It is very expensive. The people who run and shop there are a self-selected group with similar mores and thought patterns.

For example the scientific evidence that organic food is better for you is really not there. But it makes people feel virtuous to buy local, organic and seasonal and thus people are willing to pay a premium. Attending the market - especially GCM - is a way to signal to others that you "get" the truth about local, seasonal and organic and how that is virtuous. Just like various cars and clothes are signalling devices about the kind of person one considers themselves to be, GCM is another.

And what is the deal with all the gals wearing the Wellington boots to GCM? It is a bit messy but we really do not stand in muck up to our calves, ladies.

While I mostly disagree with you about your stance on organic foods, I do agree with you about GCM (mostly on Saturdays) being as much a "scene" as it is a market for some of its patrons. I especially get a chuckle out of the many folks I see leaving the market with nothing but a bunch of flowers. But this isn't limited to GCM - I see the same thing at the Division Street market too.

And regarding the ladies wearing Wellington boots: hilarious! Don't forget, those Burberry-print wellies should be paired with an artfully-messy keffiyeh scarf...perfect for an ultra-humid, 87-degree July morning!

Mhays wrote:Sorry, while I know there are all kinds of reasons behind farmers markets and why people go there, I also can't help but see parallels to the Petit Hameau.

Thank you.

AngrySarah wrote:And what is the deal with all the gals wearing the Wellington boots to GCM? It is a bit messy but we really do not stand in muck up to our calves, ladies.

I think they are in fashion. I've seen people wearing them on perfectly fine days, just on their daily commute.