spinynorman99 wrote: The cup holders are a convenience (my wife occasionally walks in with a beverage), not an invitation to consume as you shop.

Just curious--how do you know this? I'm not trying to be snarky--I just don't know your background and if you are making this statement as someone with professional experience in supermarket retailing. Otherwise, to me, it would seem kinda hard to say why they put the cupholders there.

I have frequently opened drinks in the store and never had anyone look sidesways at me for doing it...I don't eat (other than the occasional sample) because I am usuallly either too engrossed in the browsing experience (Fresh Farms) or too anxious to get the heck out of there (most everywhere else).

boudreaulicious wrote:

spinynorman99 wrote: The cup holders are a convenience (my wife occasionally walks in with a beverage), not an invitation to consume as you shop.

Just curious--how do you know this? I'm not trying to be snarky--I just don't know your background and if you are making this statement as someone with professional experience in supermarket retailing. Otherwise, to me, it would seem kinda hard to say why they put the cupholders there.

I have frequently opened drinks in the store and never had anyone look sidesways at me for doing it...I don't eat (other than the occasional sample) because I am usuallly either too engrossed in the browsing experience (Fresh Farms) or too anxious to get the heck out of there (most everywhere else).

How do I know that grocery stores don't invite you to consume products before you go through the check-out? Mmmm...common sense? Not to split hairs, but you don't have legal possession of something until you pay for it. Stores have a practice of giving out samples, including beverages, and as others have noted, they offer beverages at stands. People also bring in small children with bottles and/or sippy cups. I don't really need insider knowledge to know that stores don't invite consumption of foods from the shelves. They certainly won't have you arrested or reprimand you.

And I'm not trying to be snarky, and although I undoubtedly will come off as a AARP curmudgeon I'm also not that old, but old enough to acknowledge that there are rules of conduct that people used to adhere to. Nearly any grocery store, even those with beverage service have vending machines for water/sodas, inside and outside the store. If asked, I can guarantee that their preference would be that thirsty consumers use those machines. So just because nobody's running down the aisle and chasing you doesn't mean you have cart blanche to grab stuff off the shelves and chow down.

spinynorman99 wrote:So just because nobody's running down the aisle and chasing you doesn't mean you have cart blanche to grab stuff off the shelves and chow down.

Good pun!

and I wouldn't want someone else's spit-tinged fingers on the merchandise

I was so looking for a comment like this from Hammond.

As to the cup holders not being an invitation to crack open a drink while shopping, I'm sure this was discussed in length prior to them installing the cup holders. I'd be willing to bet that grocery execs (or store managers, for that matter) wouldn't be too worried about a customer occasionally forgetting to ring up a soda or water that they grabbed off the shelf if that meant the customer was comfortable and in less of a rush; therefore, spending more money in the store.

Personally, I don't know if I've ever cracked open food in the store. I can see goldfish for a crying kid or something and I think that's perfectly fine. I certainly have cracked open a Gatorade or water in a grocery store or gas station before paying for it and I don't think I've ever gotten a dirty look from a cashier. But then again, when I'm that deathly thirsty, I may have imbibed too much the night before and my senses aren't at their peak.

[quote="seebee"] If you (and no, not anyone in this thread specifically) saw me munching on a bag of chips in a store, and you gave me a look, I would walk right up to you and offer you some. If you were still snooty after that, and I had some extra time, I might follow you around, and just start opening and munching on other stuff specifically for you to see me. I would simply find it too hilarious to pass up an opportunity like that. [quote]

If I gave you a look, it would be because I was watching your fingers travel from bag to mouth and wondering if you were planning to wash your fingers before touching everything in the freaking store. Now, I know someone could also have their fingers just about anywhere right before they came into the store , but you're the one I can see. (Do you lick your fingers, by the way? Are you eating out of a single-serving bag, or are other people going to be sticking their fingers in the bag too?)

Also, it may be my background in retail, but I can't help thinking that someone is responsible for all the food and food trash that ends up lying around stores, and that someone is likely to be the one walking around eating the chips out of a bag.

Morally? I think if you pay for it and don't make a mess with it, no foul.

seebee wrote:

David Hammond wrote:Re: Barbaric.

This is entirely a perception issue, but when I see a person ambling along streets or grocery aisles, eating as they go, not taking the time to sit at a table like a person, I see "animal." This is not in any sense a criticism of anyone in this thread; I'm just relating some of the less scary images that go through my head every day.

Is the table the line that distinguishes animal from person?
Baseball game
Movie theater
turkey leg at a state fair
Street festivals
Concerts
Free samples on Saturdays at Whole Foods
Been to a Costco on the weekends? You can eat an entire full on meal in the aisles, and they encourage you to do so.
Drinks included in this?

You provide excellent examples that demonstrate the difference - context. There are situations that invite consumption and others that do not and in every example you identify the invitation has been extended. The "barbaric" comments stem from the sense that you can create your own rules and hope that someone challenges you so that you can show how you've earned the right by having been a good customer. Who thinks that way?

The fact that Costco provides samples that entice you to buy is, again, their choice. That doesn't mean they expect you to open packages at will and munch as you shop.

bibi rose wrote:If I gave you a look, it would be because I was watching your fingers travel from bag to mouth and wondering if you were planning to wash your fingers before touching everything in the freaking store. Now, I know someone could also have their fingers just about anywhere right before they came into the store , but you're the one I can see. (Do you lick your fingers, by the way? Are you eating out of a single-serving bag, or are other people going to be sticking their fingers in the bag too?)

Also, it may be my background in retail, but I can't help thinking that someone is responsible for all the food and food trash that ends up lying around stores, and that someone is likely to be the one walking around eating the chips out of a bag.

Morally? I think if you pay for it and don't make a mess with it, no foul.

AHA!
A legit, rational concern. Although, let's be real, there's probably an absolutely shocking episode of Dateline that could be produced using a blacklight in your local grocery store aisle. But, I definitely understand this, that I am the one that you are seeing. (and P.S. I am a world class finger licker. I'll betcha that of the scary stuff that could be found clinging to the racks and carts, and packages on the shelves, my spittle would be a low ranking concern. Hell, I should probably never open a bag of chips and eat it while holding it again because of this. Sheesh, just yesterday, we were in Target, and 2 yr old jr was grabbing packages of leftover Easter candy left and right. And I have seen where his hands go - not pretty.

bibi rose wrote:If I gave you a look, it would be because I was watching your fingers travel from bag to mouth and wondering if you were planning to wash your fingers before touching everything in the freaking store. Now, I know someone could also have their fingers just about anywhere right before they came into the store , but you're the one I can see. (Do you lick your fingers, by the way? Are you eating out of a single-serving bag, or are other people going to be sticking their fingers in the bag too?)

What exactly are people touching in the store that bothers you? Do you expect that the door to the freezer should be clean enough to eat from?

Produce comes to mind. I think of people's spitty fingers around anything they're curious about, then they put it back. Is this why Jewel has those disposable wipes all over the store?

Yeah, but think of all the bugs and dirt that was on the produce before your neighbor touched it.

I've seen some pretty nasty people out there, so dirt doesn't bother me as much. In fact, I never rinse raspberries.* There! I said it!!

*unless I'm cooking for other people.

Bugs are a different story; I am scared shitless of them, as a number of them have threatened to eat my brain.**

**paraphrasing

spinynorman99 wrote:The "barbaric" comments stem from the sense that you can create your own rules and hope that someone challenges you so that you can show how you've earned the right by having been a good customer. Who thinks that way?

Well, for one, I imagine the people who throw garbage out their car windows as they drive (who, no doubt, pay their taxes and feel entitled to do anything they want because of this) think that way.

Darren72 wrote:

bibi rose wrote:If I gave you a look, it would be because I was watching your fingers travel from bag to mouth and wondering if you were planning to wash your fingers before touching everything in the freaking store. Now, I know someone could also have their fingers just about anywhere right before they came into the store , but you're the one I can see. (Do you lick your fingers, by the way? Are you eating out of a single-serving bag, or are other people going to be sticking their fingers in the bag too?)

What exactly are people touching in the store that bothers you? Do you expect that the door to the freezer should be clean enough to eat from?

I don't expect it to be clean, but it skeeves me out when it's tacky to the touch. I know, if I really thought too much about this stuff, I would probably turn into Howard Hughes; it's just when I see it it bugs me. In Whole Foods the other day, I watched a kid open a row of those bins with plastic tops in such a way that his fingers got into every one. I was going to say something and then told myself to leave the kid alone, he was the probably the tenth person to do it that day and that is why I never buy out of bins in the first place.

riddlemay wrote:

spinynorman99 wrote:The "barbaric" comments stem from the sense that you can create your own rules and hope that someone challenges you so that you can show how you've earned the right by having been a good customer. Who thinks that way?

Well, for one, I imagine the people who throw garbage out their car windows as they drive (who, no doubt, pay their taxes and feel entitled to do anything they want because of this) think that way.

Ironically, my wife the grocery-store-aisle-drinker will wildly accelerate in her car to catch up to roadway litterers and yell at them through the car window (as I point out statistics on road-rage shootings). Go figure.

spinynorman99 wrote:You provide excellent examples that demonstrate the difference - context. There are situations that invite consumption and others that do not and in every example you identify the invitation has been extended. The "barbaric" comments stem from the sense that you can create your own rules and hope that someone challenges you so that you can show how you've earned the right by having been a good customer. Who thinks that way?

The fact that Costco provides samples that entice you to buy is, again, their choice. That doesn't mean they expect you to open packages at will and munch as you shop.

True about context, though Mr. Hammond might still want a table to enjoy his free sample, and bibi rose would not care about this context, since their issue is with the hygiene of it in a store.

So, to answer your question, "Who thinks that way?'" In all honesty, I think that way when I'm hungry enough to open a bag of chips and grab a cold 20 oz soda to wash it down when I'm shopping at the few places I'm talking about. Seriously, is there a number that you'd have to have spent at a store to feel the same way? The answer might be no, and I'd believe you. But really, might there be a number? You might laugh this question off, but I'm pretty sure you might say "hmmm..maybe" at my numbers. My s/o who is the most honest and mindful of social norms person I know (she tells me every little thing I do that I don't even realize is breaking some norm) has given me the go-ahead to crack open some grub when in this specific situation giving me the "There is no WAY they will have a problem with this if they saw the numbers." So seriously, is there a number of $ spent, say at Target, where if you were hungry as all get out, you would grab a bag o' Salsa Verde Doritos, and mow em down? Seriously? Again, as I wrote upthread, the numbers I am talking about would lead most people to ask, "What could you possibly have purchased at that store for that much?"

I'd like to concentrate on your phrase, "The "barbaric" comments stem from the sense that you can create your own rules..."
Why is it creating my own rule? I would understand if you thought that way because it could be construed as stealing, but I think ppl are mostly thinking about some unwritten rule, and I GET that - but what is the big deal outside of that's what someone taught you - when we're talking about eating a bag of chips a few minutes before you purchase them? This is the type of argument I get into with my friends after having a few beers, and they just huff and never answer the question. Listen, my parents would probably have beat me senseless if I did this in a store under their watch, (and by probably, I mean 120% sure I'd have bruises.) I'm older now, and I think about it and say, who made this unwritten rule, and why the F does it matter? I totally get:
"You don't yell Fire in a theater"
"You don't burp out loud"
"You don't swear in certain company"
I DON'T get "You don't eat chips in a grocery store aisle if you plan on paying for them at the register in a little while."

Now, mind you, I'm also the one who will tell you what's wrong with your meal if you ask me "What do you think?" if I'm over for dinner. For some reason, ppl think I'm brash that way. But on the flip side, if I ask you what you think of what I made for dinner, it's because I want to know - and I'd rather know if you didn't like it so I can adjust something for you. I actually want to know the truth, and I assume others do too, so I tell them.

spinynorman99 wrote:

riddlemay wrote:

spinynorman99 wrote:The "barbaric" comments stem from the sense that you can create your own rules and hope that someone challenges you so that you can show how you've earned the right by having been a good customer. Who thinks that way?

Well, for one, I imagine the people who throw garbage out their car windows as they drive (who, no doubt, pay their taxes and feel entitled to do anything they want because of this) think that way.

Ironically, my wife the grocery-store-aisle-drinker will wildly accelerate in her car to catch up to roadway litterers and yell at them through the car window (as I point out statistics on road-rage shootings). Go figure.

Ironically, and possibly hypocritically, (depending on what you think of me) people who litter make me absolutely SICK, but they are directly, negatively, affecting the world I live in.

seebee wrote:

spinynorman99 wrote:You provide excellent examples that demonstrate the difference - context. There are situations that invite consumption and others that do not and in every example you identify the invitation has been extended. The "barbaric" comments stem from the sense that you can create your own rules and hope that someone challenges you so that you can show how you've earned the right by having been a good customer. Who thinks that way?

The fact that Costco provides samples that entice you to buy is, again, their choice. That doesn't mean they expect you to open packages at will and munch as you shop.

True about context, though Mr. Hammond might still want a table to enjoy his free sample, and bibi rose would not care about this context, since their issue is with the hygiene of it in a store.

So, to answer your question, "Who thinks that way?'" In all honesty, I think that way when I'm hungry enough to open a bag of chips and grab a cold 20 oz soda to wash it down when I'm shopping at the few places I'm talking about. Seriously, is there a number that you'd have to have spent at a store to feel the same way? The answer might be no, and I'd believe you. But really, might there be a number? You might laugh this question off, but I'm pretty sure you might say "hmmm..maybe" at my numbers. My s/o who is the most honest and mindful of social norms person I know (she tells me every little thing I do that I don't even realize is breaking some norm) has given me the go-ahead to crack open some grub when in this specific situation giving me the "There is no WAY they will have a problem with this if they saw the numbers." So seriously, is there a number of $ spent, say at Target, where if you were hungry as all get out, you would grab a bag o' Salsa Verde Doritos, and mow em down? Seriously? Again, as I wrote upthread, the numbers I am talking about would lead most people to ask, "What could you possibly have purchased at that store for that much?"

I'd like to concentrate on your phrase, "The "barbaric" comments stem from the sense that you can create your own rules..."
Why is it creating my own rule? I would understand if you thought that way because it could be construed as stealing, but I think ppl are mostly thinking about some unwritten rule, and I GET that - but what is the big deal outside of that's what someone taught you - when we're talking about eating a bag of chips a few minutes before you purchase them? This is the type of argument I get into with my friends after having a few beers, and they just huff and never answer the question. Listen, my parents would probably have beat me senseless if I did this in a store under their watch, (and by probably, I mean 120% sure I'd have bruises.) I'm older now, and I think about it and say, who made this unwritten rule, and why the F does it matter? I totally get:
"You don't yell Fire in a theater"
"You don't burp out loud"
"You don't swear in certain company"
I DON'T get "You don't eat chips in a grocery store aisle if you plan on paying for them at the register in a little while."

Now, mind you, I'm also the one who will tell you what's wrong with your meal if you ask me "What do you think?" if I'm over for dinner. For some reason, ppl think I'm brash that way. But on the flip side, if I ask you what you think of what I made for dinner, it's because I want to know - and I'd rather know if you didn't like it so I can adjust something for you. I actually want to know the truth, and I assume others do too, so I tell them.

Getting back to what I was alluding to at the start of all this: when did we become a nation requiring immediate gratification? I remember taking road trips to Wisconsin in the late 60's and 70's when we would drive for a whole hour or 90 minutes without a drink or snack. Then we'd stop at A&W for a bit and continue. Now there's a need to constantly have a beverage handy at all times. I don't know about anyone else's habits but I rarely linger* in a grocery for extended periods and I don't really recall being in a position where thirst or hunger came over me to the point where I was in dire need of something to eat or drink before I could check out and go home.

So this whole phenomenon seems really alien to me. If you have kids, certainly all bets are off, but I do feel like I'm another planet sometimes when my wife - who just left the car with a drink sitting in the cup-holder 10 minutes earlier - feels an immediate need to grab a soda from the cooler at the grocery midway through our excursion.



*Although I freely admit that I hit the grocery stores a lot more frequently than most and if it's an interesting one (Fresh Farms when it first opened) I'll hit every single aisle.

seebee wrote:FFSo, to answer your question, "Who thinks that way?'" In all honesty, I think that way when I'm hungry enough to open a bag of chips and grab a cold 20 oz soda to wash it down when I'm shopping at the few places I'm talking about. Seriously, is there a number that you'd have to have spent at a store to feel the same way? The answer might be no, and I'd believe you. But really, might there be a number?

I'll take your question as a sincere, non-rhetorical one, and answer it sincerely. The answer is that there is no number. Because for me the non-permissibility of munching food off the shelves in grocery stores has nothing to do with money. Not everything has to do with money. Some decisions one makes because of standards of acceptable and unacceptable behavior. (Old-fashioned, I know.)

To create an extreme hypothetical that illustrates the point, I doubt you'd say that spending $5000 in a restaurant entitles you to shoot your waiter through the head.

riddlemay wrote:

seebee wrote:FFSo, to answer your question, "Who thinks that way?'" In all honesty, I think that way when I'm hungry enough to open a bag of chips and grab a cold 20 oz soda to wash it down when I'm shopping at the few places I'm talking about. Seriously, is there a number that you'd have to have spent at a store to feel the same way? The answer might be no, and I'd believe you. But really, might there be a number?

I'll take your question as a sincere, non-rhetorical one, and answer it sincerely. The answer is that there is no number. Because for me the non-permissibility of munching food off the shelves in grocery stores has nothing to do with money. Not everything has to do with money. Some decisions one makes because of standards of acceptable and unacceptable behavior. (Old-fashioned, I know.)

To create an extreme hypothetical that illustrates the point, I doubt you'd say that spending $5000 in a restaurant entitles you to shoot your waiter through the head.

OH EM GEE!
Someone actually answered a question that I asked!
But listen, Riddlemay, I also said that I totally GET some social norms upthread. Assuming you feel that cracking open a bag of chips in a grocery store falls into your "standards of acceptable and unacceptable behavior," WHY IS THAT?? WHAT DOES IT DO, OR WHY IS IT "BAD" SPECIFICALLY TO YOU! How does this equate to shooting someone to YOU! (Yes, I know you used a hyperbolic illustration, but SHOOTING???) Let's throw away the mask of social norm, I'd like to know why this is a negative thing to do to YOU, and only YOU. Why is it unacceptable to YOU. Is it only the question of hunger you've posed upthread? What if the answer is seriously "yes?" The few times I've done this, I made the mistake of going into the store famished, late at night after work, tired, and my blood sugar was at the point of "there's another jerk blocking the entire aisle with one cart. If I only had a gun..." I have been there a few times. It's totally my fault to be in that situation, I admit, but when it has happened, a bag of chips is better than me being far too grumpy for words just because I need a carb or two. I'm no diabetic, either, and I am not trying to make light of that serious medical condition.
Again, these are sincere, non-rhetorical questions.

seebee wrote:Someone actually answered a question that I asked!
But listen, Riddlemay, I also said that I totally GET some social norms upthread. Assuming you feel that cracking open a bag of chips in a grocery store falls into your "standards of acceptable and unacceptable behavior," WHY IS THAT?? WHAT DOES IT DO, OR WHY IS IT "BAD"... Let's throw away the mask of social norm, I'd like to know why this is a negative thing to do to YOU, and only YOU. Why is it unacceptable to YOU. Is it only the question of hunger you've posed upthread? What if the answer is seriously "yes?" The few times I've done this, I made the mistake of going into the store famished, late at night after work, tired, and my blood sugar was at the point of "there's another jerk blocking the entire aisle with one cart. If I only had a gun..."

This is an interesting thread, because it has caused me to ask myself the very questions you're asking me.

I have more than one answer. Upthread I discussed the unseemly infantility of the apparent need for instant oral gratification. Others have raised issues of sanitation. But I'll add one more. Bottom line, it violates my code to consume items that haven't been paid for. Notwithstanding that I fully understand that you intend to, and will, pay for the items--you haven't paid for them yet. No one "advanced" you those items. For the fifteen minutes to half-hour between the time you have consumed those items and the time you pay for them, you have effectively stolen them.

In a sit-down restaurant, the social contract permits consuming items and paying for them later. Perhaps this has to do with the relative immobility of the sit-down customer. (I.e., he or she is not going anywhere until those items are paid for, so an "advance" on the items is understood by both parties in the transaction to be part of the deal.) In a grocery store, however, it is all too easy to conceal that you've consumed an item, and so the social contract doesn't permit it.

True medical emergencies are exempted from this, in the same way they are exempted from other social strictures.

I think it's wonderful that we can all express our own personal views here yet none of us has to comply anyone's views but our own. I find the vehemence of the opinions with which I disagree absolutely delightful.

=R=

ronnie_suburban wrote:I think it's wonderful that we can all express our own personal views here yet none of us has to comply anyone's views but our own. I find the vehemence of the opinions with which I disagree absolutely delightful.

=R=

I would describe my opinions on the subject as "impassioned" more than "vehement."

Personally, I think we are talking about a immediate gratification issue. No one waits for anything anymore, because we all deserve it now...and our way.

In fact, I never rinse raspberries.* There! I said it!!

Washing them wrecks them.

This discussion would be greatly enhanced by hearing the opinion of a food retailer. If anybody knows someone who is a store management professional, would you please ask them what the general consensus among managers is about this question?

riddlemay wrote:

seebee wrote:But I'll add one more. Bottom line, it violates my code to consume items that haven't been paid for. Notwithstanding that I fully understand that you intend to, and will, pay for the items--you haven't paid for them yet. No one "advanced" you those items. For the fifteen minutes to half-hour between the time you have consumed those items and the time you pay for them, you have effectively stolen them.

Ahh, this explains the high number of CPD I frequently see at Manny's. They are there to bust all of us that are stealing by eating food before we've paid for it.

Kman wrote:Ahh, this explains the high number of CPD I frequently see at Manny's. They are there to bust all of us that are stealing by eating food before we've paid for it.

I addressed that in the paragraph that immediately followed the one you quoted, Kman:

In a sit-down restaurant, the social contract permits consuming items and paying for them later. Perhaps this has to do with the relative immobility of the sit-down customer. (I.e., he or she is not going anywhere until those items are paid for, so an "advance" on the items is understood by both parties in the transaction to be part of the deal.) In a grocery store, however, it is all too easy to conceal that you've consumed an item, and so the social contract doesn't permit it.

seebee wrote:"You don't swear in certain company"

Whoops. Sorry kids!

I do hope this discussion will continue at least until someone wins!

=R=