kennyz, the "you can't eat there for $10" was one of my initial thoughts after reading the whole article... you can't even eat at the macy's express version of frontera for $10 i don't think. and at the real deal, a platter of tacos is $15, and i don't think they do a la carte. i assume also she's sitting at the bar, but not ordering one of their $12 margaritas...or any drink for that matter? :] i actually thought the same about Lou M's. who walks out with a pizza for under $10?? a pizza for 2 more often than not sets me back $20-30 easy for a single pie.

i totally agree on bari. and i was bummed to read it though. and the marinated eggplant suggestion is dead on. must get that (it's an extra 50 cents or something, but makes the sandwich). didn't ever notice they had fresh mozzarella as an option, clearly that guy knows his bari subs though!!

riddlemay wrote:we'd be smart enough to say something different, along the lines of "I think the Chicago internet-foodie community has done amazing things to raise the overall level and diversity of cuisine in this city and call attention to what's going on under the radar, etc. etc. boilerplate."

You know, really, I don't think it's just "smart enough" but seeing it from the inside. I really don't think most people understand how much the online food community here has helped to improve the food scene in Chicago. I know there have been some references over time to Erik M. and Chicago Thai in mainstream press, and surely those who follow know, but that's understanding the development of the Chicago food scene at a pretty esoteric level that it wouldn't surprise me if Bill Kim, say, had no idea about. And he very well might, just saying that I think the idea that there's really good Thai food in Chicago has become a more widespread story (and still sort of niche) than how it was proselytized.

dddane wrote:kennyz, the "you can't eat there for $10" was one of my initial thoughts after reading the whole article... you can't even eat at the macy's express version of frontera for $10 i don't think. and at the real deal, a platter of tacos is $15, and i don't think they do a la carte. i assume also she's sitting at the bar, but not ordering one of their $12 margaritas...or any drink for that matter? :] i actually thought the same about Lou M's. who walks out with a pizza for under $10?? a pizza for 2 more often than not sets me back $20-30 easy for a single pie.

i totally agree on bari. and i was bummed to read it though. and the marinated eggplant suggestion is dead on. must get that (it's an extra 50 cents or something, but makes the sandwich). didn't ever notice they had fresh mozzarella as an option, clearly that guy knows his bari subs though!!

Actually, I am at the Frontera bar right now, and the margaritas are only 7. The tacos, however, start at 16.50. There are 3 things you could eat for under 10 bucks including tax and tip: chips, jicama, or gazpacho

it would seem that some folks don't like having the shoe on their own foot.
But mostly I would note the seriousness of what y'all do here. The influence of the blogosphere on print media is not only limited to restaurant reviews. I have no idea what the quibbles of Bill Kim and Graham Elliot Bowles are, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were merely blowing smoke up the ass of the traditional media, as the MSM's domination of the marketplace of ideas is seriously threatened by amateurs.

I would be interested to hear Chef Bowles' feedback on this. He certainly has not turned away from publicizing his new restaurant venture on this site. Perhaps we misunderstand his comments in the article.

My thoughts exactly - freedom of the press, and even internet press works both ways. If you're going to dish it out, you better be prepared to take it every now and then.

Aaron Deacon wrote:Geez, no wonder they don't like us.

I think the anxiety in this thread is much ado about nothing.

I can understand, 100%, why someone would make an off-the-cuff comment about "bloggers" being annoying.

Hell, I think bloggers are annoying. Which isn't to say that I don't like, read, or follow any blogs (or discussion boards), but I recognize the strange narcissistic and exhibitionist impulse that drives a large % of Internet content, and I mean that in a mostly unpejorative way, nor do I exempt myself insofar as its a criticism.

I mean, don't we have a whole thread on here with a bunch of people bitching about how worthless Yelp! is? Talk about hypocritical.

I don't really see how people could reasonably take this so personally, and I can't for the life of me figure out why those couple sentences would prevent someone from trying Graham Elliot or Urban Belly.

As for the business new places get from bloggers...I guess it's a double-edged sword, but restaurants opened and thrived before the advent of the Internet. The "biting the hand that feeds" metaphor seems extreme.

Sure, you wouldn't turn away a crush of initial popularity, but it's a bit different model. I can see the merit in preferring a soft launch, giving you time to work out the kinks, and slowly building a following. There's a reason restaurant reviewers wait a bit for a place to find its footing before publishing a review.

Which is not to say online discussion is bad (obviously!) or that it's going anywhere, but a little kvetching among a group of chefs...big deal.

i<3pizza wrote:I interpreted them as making fun of bloggers who, in particular, take themselves and their writing too seriously, which is why they talked about exaggerated review lengths, nitpicky criticisms and people who give the appearance that documenting their meal comes before the pleasure of eating it. That may be an unfair characterization of many people on here, but it's not hard to read threads on here and come up with exactly the same stereotype.

+1

I don't see what the big deal is unless one thinks that they are within some sort of insider chefs club. Basically we're all merely customers with opinions. Not in partnership with these places.

GEB wrote:They come in and order three courses, and it's a 10,000-word essay that includes stuff about the placement of their silverware.

Pardon our verbosity. I think "$26 Cheez-It risotto" or "$8 plate of dumplings" sum up these places sufficiently.

This has been a fascinating thread to read thru.
I also was more than a little surprised to read these comments in the article this weekend.
I think these chefs, asnd esp Urban Belly have benefitted greatly from the type of
discussions that go in here and I don't read yelp, so I can't speak to that site.
It's sort of like biting the hand that feeds you to make a bad pun.
Just keep your mouth shut
Hard to believe they'd badmouth SOOOO many potential customers.
but as others have said perhaps it was out of context a bit....

Just a point of reference. This edited transcript of a 2-hour roundtable discussion is about 2,500 words. (Estimated using page 2 text, which is about 500 words.) I used to edit raw, 2-hour roundtable transcripts (no exaggeration when I say I've edited 100s of these), and I can tell you that they usually clock in at about 6,000 words before they're edited. If you're effectively removing 50-70% of the conversation, you end up cutting everything but the most useful, provocative and insightful statements. Qualifiers, etc., get trimmed out.

irisarbor wrote:It's sort of like biting the hand that feeds you to make a bad pun.

More like biting the hand that you feed, no?

I really wish that we had more context for the comments that were made by Kim and Bowles but it's probably not going to happen. In light of the 'old media vs. new media' conflict, a piece like this (or at least the small section of it that we are discussing) could easily be seen as a means to serve the interests of the source itself. I do wonder, though, how these chefs might have responded if they'd been asked to comment on the value of 'traditional' restaurant reviews, given that they are done so infrequently, and once published, tend to lose their relevance fairly rapidly. Perhaps, one or both of them will step up here and elaborate, although doing so would likely put them in precarious positions.

Especially for chef Bowles, the published comments seem like a significant departure from earlier days. As others have posted, not only has chef Bowles posted here with some frequency but I very much remember this eG thread from 2004, in which chef Bowles enthusiastically announced his impending arrival in Chicago. Perhaps he didn't know what he was getting into. My guess, however, is that he had 1 or 2 disappointing posts in mind when he made his comments at the recent roundtable and through the miracles of context (or lack thereof), they came off as being more broadly-focused than they were actually intended. I'm not making excuses or apologies -- just trying to understand what seems like a complete departure for him.

Also, as much as I love LTHForum, I think that some people here have, possibly, overestimated the importance of our influence. Yes, many people read these forums and we do have some influence. But, especially in the case of Kim's Urban Belly, the Hungry Hound went nuts over it, too and I'm guessing that his television-assisted influence far outreaches ours.

=R=

My $0.02.

I think that obviously the context of how the quotes were taken is important, and I'm sure that no one will ever see an unedited transcript to be able to know how the comments were said.

However, if I were a restaurant owner, sitting down with someone from the press. I would be careful to not lash out at my customer base. Or do something that might be percieved that way. People review lots of things, movies, music, theatre ect. It's not so far of a stretch that in the time we're living in when Chef's are given some type of celebrity for people to review these places too. The thing that I don't understand is if they are objecting to the reviews or the arena that the reviews are done in. Would they consider a review more valid if they weren't posted on yelp/lth/blogs?

I think that I have to echo Michael's post up thread were he says that the type of enthusiastic response from diners who are excited, asking questions, taking pictures, commenting on things, should be something to excite and inspire, not something that would be considered an annoyance.

ronnie_suburban wrote:But, especially in the case of Kim's Urban Belly, the Hungry Hound went nuts over it, too and I'm guessing that his television-assisted influence far outreaches ours.

Ron,

I agree Steve Dolinsky's Hungry Hound ABC footprint is large, but Steve Dolinsky did not review Urban Belly on television, but on the relatively new Chicago edition of The Huffington Post, and that was on the 22nd, the same day I was there for the second time, first being 8/20, and there was, at minimum , a dozen LTHers and a table of ten from Yelp with Queijo.

Just for reference the first Urban Belly post on LTHForum was on 8/19.

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:But, especially in the case of Kim's Urban Belly, the Hungry Hound went nuts over it, too and I'm guessing that his television-assisted influence far outreaches ours.

Ron,

I agree Steve Dolinsky's Hungry Hound ABC footprint is large, but Steve Dolinsky did not review Urban Belly on television, but on the relatively new Chicago edition of The Huffington Post, and that was on the 22nd, the same day I was there for the second time, first being 8/20, and there was, at minimum , a dozen LTHers and a table of ten from Yelp with Queijo.

Just for reference the first Urban Belly post on LTHForum was on 8/19.

Enjoy,
Gary

Thanks, Gary, for the clarification. I was making a more general reference about reach vs. reach but I appreciate what you are saying. Still, as you well know, a dozen diners early on -- or even 3-dozen, for that matter -- does not necessarily guarantee any sort of prolonged success for a restaurant, especially when those diners are relatively hard-core folks who make it a point to visit places as early as they can. I bring this point up only because I'm not sure that Mr. Kim was really risking a great portion of his future business by saying the things he said. Perhaps he was. I'm honestly not sure.

I'm also not sure how much being "first" to post about a place really matters. Successful businesses are built over years, not days, and early buzz almost always fades away pretty fast. Steve Dolinsky wrote that Urban Belly was the "best first-day opening of any restaurant in Chicago, Kim has swung for the fences, and has hit it out of the park." Regardless of the venue, that bold of a declaration from from Mr. Dolinsky carries a tremendous amount of weight in this town, even if it did appear days after the thread here began to roll. His words may reverberate far longer than anything written here. Though, again, I'm really not sure. Is there any way to know for sure?

Erzsi, I agree with this point completely:

Erzsi wrote:However, if I were a restaurant owner, sitting down with someone from the press. I would be careful to not lash out at my customer base. Or do something that might be percieved that way.

I know that if it were me, that's how I'd handle it. But I'm older than these 2 chefs and, from what I understand, have been running a business far longer than either of them. Perhaps the wisdom you describe is a function, in part, of experience.

=R=

I think the interview quotes show that the chefs are a bit prickly over some of the criticism they've received from some in the online community.

I think this thread shows that we in the online community are a bit prickly about some of the criticism we've received from chefs.

I have no doubt these chefs respect foodies, and I'm sure most people here respect these chefs. I think, therefore, we're each over reacting to the other's comments.

Jonah

Does anyone know what/where the gyros place GEB talks about is? Whatever I think about the man's interview responses, I do respect his palate.

I'm curious as to why some here are viewing Monica Eng of the Trib, a long-time and well-respected foodjournalist, as some manner of Agent of Satan, dragging negative quotes out of the chefs about blogs and forums. These chefs are big boys and girls, and can take care of them selves; it's a current trend for high-profile chefs - specifically NYC chefs - to trash-talk about alternative sources of review (see Mario Batali, David Chang, etc.), so they are just following the fashion. Not to mention that chefs love to gossip, and to complain. Some of the things I've heard from the chefs I've done demos with over the past four years would absolutely curl your hair. Good stuff.

So ease up on Ms. Eng. Don't shoot the messenger!

nr706 wrote:The reporter/editor's responsibility is to accurately depict the full tone and meaning of the discussion, not just to pick out the most provocative portions.

ronnie_suburban wrote:Thanks, Gary, for the clarification. I was making a more general reference about reach vs. reach but I appreciate what you are saying.

Ron,

I was not making a comparison of reach vs reach nor was I advocating first for first sake, simply pointing out that LTHForum and Yelp, on my two Urban Belly visits, put 6 people the first visit and 22 the second in seats dining at Chef Kims restaurant. People who Michael Morowitz referred to upthread as influencers.

Once again, I am not making an influence comparison, is moot to the point I am trying to make, simply that it does not seem a good idea to be negative and dismissive of a portion of your client base, no matter where that portion originated.

I should also point out that Steve Dolinsky posting about Urban Belly on the Huffington Post Blog, makes him a Blogger.

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote:Once again, I am not making an influence comparison, is moot to the point I am trying to make, simply that it does not seem a good idea to be negative and dismissive of a portion of your client base, no matter where that portion originated.

I couldn't agree more.

=R=

HI,

What is too bad and certainly technologically very doable: a podcast of the entire discussion. You could hear the precise context these statements were extracted from and not rely on how they were selected.

Now that would allow traditional media Chicago Tribune an edge over us internet-types. I don't think we have the influence to gather these chefs for a sit-down roundtable interview like the Chicago Tribune and Monica Eng achieved. Or maybe I am understating our infuence and capabilities, hmmmm.

Regards,

I didn't take their comments to be that negative at all, none of them said "these people don't know what they're talking about" or "leave it to pros" or anything of that sort. They just seemed to not understand why people do it, or that feel that people are getting obsessive about it.

My take is that Bill answered "bloggers" and that then became the topic for discussion. Not everyone was throwing out "bloggers" as their pet peeve. GEB sees things on Yelp he doesn't like (I agree with that), Bill and GEB think some people get obsessive about it (agree with that as well, but I see it as a good thing), Paul sees it as people discussing something they enjoy (it seemed like he was directly responding to "You don't see people blogging about their new shoes in the same way" and used sports as an example of another thing people feel passionate about).

Overall I didn't see much for anyone to take offense at.

G Wiv wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:But, especially in the case of Kim's Urban Belly, the Hungry Hound went nuts over it, too and I'm guessing that his television-assisted influence far outreaches ours.

Ron,

I agree Steve Dolinsky's Hungry Hound ABC footprint is large, but Steve Dolinsky did not review Urban Belly on television, but on the relatively new Chicago edition of The Huffington Post, and that was on the 22nd, the same day I was there for the second time, first being 8/20, and there was, at minimum , a dozen LTHers and a table of ten from Yelp with Queijo.

Just for reference the first Urban Belly post on LTHForum was on 8/19.

Enjoy,
Gary

Also in the interest of reference, Metromix mentioned Urban Belly on July 29th http://chicago.metromix.com/restaurants ... 09/content, and I remember seeing a segment on their CLTV show around the same time in which they went to an Asian market w/ Bill Kim & he talked about getting ready to open up Urban Belly.

I've worked with several 3-star chefs in the past few years, and none of them had any interest in bloggers/food forums. The general consensus seemed to be that they're already dealing with having their work judged on a nightly basis, why subject themselves to even more? And I'm not just speaking in regards to negative reviews or not appreciating their customers, but to general discussion about their work. Most (certainly not all!) chefs just want to make good food for people to enjoy, go home, sleep, wake up the next day and do it again. That's why they chose this line of work. (the majority of big name chefs who own their own restaurants aren't raking in Charlie Trotter money, they're actually in tons of debt.) They just don't want to rehash it over and over. They do appreciate the word of mouth, but they just don't understand the "obsession" that's sometimes involved in blogging and forums. In most professions work performance is judged by one's superiors on an annual basis, but in the restaurant business it's literally hourly. Which isn't to say (in my experience) that they ignored feedback, because they not only made sure to come out of the kitchen when they could to make sure guests were enjoying themselves & satisfied, but also stressed to their staff the importance of "talking to the tables," "checking in with tables," being aware of guest reactions both verbally & non-verbally, etc., and in each restaurant I worked the staff made sure to do this, and if there was any dissatisfaction expressed, it was dealt with and remedied at the time. The problem is, nowadays people are more prone to smile and say everything's ok to the staff, when in fact they felt it wasn't, and then go home & blog/post about it. I actually worked for a chef (whose restaurant is well-regarded on this forum) a few years ago who assigned me the task of checking the web for "reviews" and letting him know of things only if it was pertinent (which is how I happened upon this forum 2 years ago) because he just couldn't stand to do it anymore, & I did come across a very negative review (on another site) from someone who we remembered telling us everything was "great" throughout the night. So in that regard it's understandable that chefs would carry some disdain for the online dining community.

I also worked with another chef (again, 3 star & favorably reviewed on this forum) who was completely obsessed with online discussion of his restaurant and even went so far as to post his own (anonymous) glowing reviews several times a week (and even once on this forum.) He even fired an employee on the basis of a negative review on another site, which the rest of the staff suspected was written by him. And yet his most celebrated dish, which is still on the menu and still talked about on this forum others, was actually created by a line cook yet he gets full credit on here & in other internet places. Honestly, in the 10 months I was there I never saw him cook a single thing, just yell out stuff while expediting. So yes, it goes both ways.

Regarding picture taking, others have posted that it's annoying to them as diners, but speaking as someone who works in restaurants, I have another word for it: unnerving. We already know that we're being constantly judged by diners in a certain regard, and we're prepared for that and ready to meet certain expectations, but when the cameras come out as the plates are set down, it adds a whole new critical element that I'm not quite sure I can articulate right now; just imagine going about your daily work and having someone show up unannounced with a camera to document your work. It kind of sets a tone that the diner is not just enjoying a meal, but also blatently critiquing it. So in that regard I can empathize with Bill Kim's comments.

If you've actually read this far, I'm sorry this was so long, but I guess this whole brouhaha just struck a nerve with me!

On a final note, I have no affiliation with Urban Belly or Graham Elliot.

I only read the first page of this thread - i get the points and counter-points of it all, but i feel like i need to speak up a little bit as I am a product of a generation that has lived with the internet for the majority of it's life - a generation thats just starting to go out and get real jobs and contribute to society more fully.

People in this world are turning to the internet as their source of information more and more. And the younger people of this world are almost solely reliant on it. Is that good? I don't know, i don't have any idea if there is a way to prove it one way or another but thats completely beside the point.

But i will tell you this: The days of the sole weather man, the single city movie critic, the newspaper food critic, etc are gone. We don't rely on John Doe from the Trib to give us reviews on movies/restaurants anymore.

Why? I can go online and see what 300 other people have to say about a specific dish at a specific restaurant. I can "personally" interact with any number of people on ANY subject i want through blogs, email, website contacts, discussion boards, etc. There's even a website dedicated to the slurpee. There's a website and a discussion group for everything ever. Read that last sentence again. This is not going to go away. Love it, or hate it, I understand both arguments, but realize it's reality. These Chefs just needs to realize that.

And regarding peoples' labels of "obsession", "hype", "addiction to blogging" etc - it's all bull roar. The reason that there are discussion groups, forums, websites, etc is because it's too easy not to have 'em. The people of this world should be happy that there are those out there that simply take the time to put stuff on the internet. You can gain the base knowledge for anything on earth using the internet - but i bet you won't hear people bitch when they are researching an upcoming, risky medical operation that a family member is going to go through, will you? Or when you pull your first pork shoulder off your WSM thanks to Gwiv's website. I spend 5 minutes every other day or so on lth forum and I eat 500000x better than i did a few years ago.

On a last side note, despite the fact that i could've gotten my cooking knowledge through books, there is absolutely no substitute for the information i have received over the past few years through lth regarding Chicago and it's food. there simply isn't. I am so utterly grateful for the people that contribute to this site because, for someone like me - who is young, naturally ignorant - it has given me a guide to opening up my experience in chicago not only in terms of food but also culture.

So, i don't think we need to get our panties in a bunch over someone making an off handed comment because this website is so much better than that and has enriched so many peoples' daily lives in chicago that it really.....just doesn't f'n matter what the hell this guy has to say.

I want to echo what was said above, that many chefs are not oriented toward the online world (my old friend who is a chef elsewhere can barely handle email). For folks like that, distinctions between a site like LTH and the worthless garbage on metromix – distinctions which loom so large to us – are probably invisible. Without investing a lot of time reading and exploring the threads and posts (time which chefs do not have) they are not going to understand that the people taking pictures of the food are the ones who love food, love restaurants, and want to post pictures to show the rest of the (online) world how great the food is. The picture takers are not the ones who post mindless, destructive rants.

Chef Bowles, as poster GEB, is obviously not in that group. He knows LTHForum. After all, he was the first to post about the late, lamented GNR Café Salamera. And notice that his first response to the “pet peeve” question (first as printed in the Tribune, anyway) was “Yelp.” There are other (not all) LTHers who would agree with that! The second point (as represented in the article) was that some posts go overboard on trivial details. Is there really anyone here on the boards who feels otherwise? To me, poster GEB’s comments sounded like many discussions I’ve had with fellow posters.

Some posts above, Jonah pointed out the ironic symmetry between the chefs sounding affronted that diners post criticism online and LTHers feeling affronted that online discussion is criticized. Just as we hope that chefs and owners will read what is written and respond positively to constructive criticism, we as posters, as the ones who jointly create the content of this site, should be willing to consider whether there is something to the negative comments. We should think about what the threads look like to a first time visitor to the site. There is much of value here. But sometimes it is hard to find the valuable content hidden among threads which go off onto tangents about irrelevant issues, or constant back-and-forth over tiny points of etiquette, or listing foods which you personally don’t like… (I mean, really, is that interesting to anyone who does not know you?)

If we want this site to continue to be well thought of, we all need to take responsibility for maintaining a balance between friendly chit-chat and actual content. After all, we think there is a difference between LTHForum and other online sites. Let’s widen that gap even more. Let’s write as if people we think highly of are reading our posts. Let’s write in such a way as to keep them coming back.

Amata wrote: Let’s write as if people we think highly of are reading our posts. Let’s write in such a way as to keep them coming back.

Amata,

Excellent advice.

Enjoy,
Gary

This is so ridiculous. You are all as bad as the paparazzi. You think you make and break restaurants? Check your big egos at the door please. I write about my experiences at new restaurants with respect for the Chefs hard work and art. If I don't have anything nice to say, I simply don't write about their restaurants. Period, end of story. All you are doing is making their restaurants more attractive and much more interesting. What you children haven't stopped to think about is this, we are in a messed up economy right now. Anyone bold enough to open any kind of business right now must really be trying to offer something different, make a change. It is very clear that both Graham Elliot and Bill Kim have put a lot of hard work and love into opening their restaurants. Not an easy thing to do today's market. They do what they do because they LOVE what they do. Chefs are artists first. They are NOT businessmen first. They don't own a chain of Subway sandwich shops or 7-eleven stores. These guys are trying to offer us GREAT fresh food and one of them in particular, Bill Kim, wants to show us that you can eat really well without blowing through your hard earmed paycheck. Come on! Urban belly's prices are amazingly low for the quality of food they are serving. Show me another Chicago restaurant that is cooking up this kind of quality for those prices and DO NOT even think about comparing his cooking to other Korean places in Chicago because that is like comparing apples to oranges. Sharpen your palates before you start talking that crap again. Most of those comments are coming from people from his own culture who are stuck and completely resistant to a new twist on an old standard. Does the name, Astor Piazzolla ring a bell? All Astor wanted to do is create his own twist on Tango music. Instead of his own people embracing his original voice, they ran him out of his own country, tried to destroy him and even attempted to kill him. Now years after his death, he is know as the master of Tango. So to all of you ridiculously petty and unappreciative individuals out there, wake up! These chefs are cooking for us! They are doing their best TO FEED US GREAT FOOD. All some of you do is go into their restaurants, make annoyance of yourselves by taking pictures like you own the place and WITHOUT even asking (so rude, I never do that, I was raise right and I have manners) and then the worst of you actually expect to be treated like royalty. Just be grateful that these artists are cooking up great meals in our neighborhoods no less. Support them and stop trying to destroy them when they answer honestly about being annoyed by annoying people like most of you here. Get some manners and remember, you are just a spec on a large map. Both of these Chefs are know internationally for the quality of their art. So you see everything you try to do to "try and ruin" their dreams will only backfire. It's already happening because they both still have packed dining rooms of happy, grateful and appreciative restaurant goers who know a good thing when they taste it.

Wow francis, that was some post. Here, I've got an extra keyboard with a working return key on it, PM me your address and I'll drop it in the mail

Not sure what I can do about your utter lack of comprehension though. You accuse "us" of trying to destroy these chefs?!?! Did you even read this thread? Seriously, did you?