RAB wrote:Application of the Golden Rule might be the easiest way to sum up this whole "asked to move" situation. It can be used to govern one's behavior in either the role of the asker or askee.

While that might fit, I don't think it comes any closer to determining a universal solution. I would be willing to bet (and definitely would hope) that the OP would never dream of asking someone else to move down. So her application of the golden rule and yours would come up with completely different behavior.

I've been reading this thread with interest and have been rather on the fence about the whole thing. After re-reading the original post, I wonder if the attitude of the person asking isn't more important than the actual asking itself. If someone came up to me at a bar (regardless how nice and whether I had food or not) and politely asked me to move down a seat or two, I'd do it and probably not even really notice. But if someone did the same with the kind of "hey, get out of my way" attitude described in the OP, I might or might not move, but I'd definitely be annoyed and give them the stink eye.

Cinny's Mom wrote:As a result, I am doing a lot more moving around than most men.

I am a man (arguably) and I move all the time. Nobody - man or woman - moves more than me. I am indeed asked to move very infrequently though - not because of my gender, but because I have the courtesy to move before people feel the need to ask.

aschie30 wrote:

bibi rose wrote:It seems like in etiquette questions, discussion always seems to gravitate towards what the reaction to something should be rather than whether it's OK to create that situation in the first place.

This is a good point. There seems to be some inverse analysis here on this thread where the askers seem to think it's not that big of a deal for the person they're asking to move, and to me, the inquiry begins with whether it's okay to impose yourself in the first place by asking; after all, the person you're asking to move did nothing to you but have the bad luck of showing up earlier and having a seat available.

I don't remember if it's Miss Manners or someone else, but I do remember the maxim that the essence of good manners is to never make others feel uncomfortable.

This thread reminds me of a joke.

Q - How many Vietnam Veterans does it take to screw in a light bulb?

A - You Weren't There, You'll Never KNOW!!

gleam,

What's the over/under on posts until we hit Godwin's Law?

eatchicago wrote:gleam,

What's the over/under on posts until we hit Godwin's Law?

if you asked me via PM i'd say 12, but now that you've brought it up, it's either 5 (triggered ironically) or 25 (triggered seriously)

gleam wrote:

eatchicago wrote:gleam,

What's the over/under on posts until we hit Godwin's Law?

if you asked me via PM i'd say 12, but now that you've brought it up, it's either 5 (triggered ironically) or 25 (triggered seriously)

You know who else enjoyed numbers...

Santander wrote:

gleam wrote:

eatchicago wrote:gleam,

What's the over/under on posts until we hit Godwin's Law?

if you asked me via PM i'd say 12, but now that you've brought it up, it's either 5 (triggered ironically) or 25 (triggered seriously)

You know who else enjoyed numbers...

Satan?



Trying to stave off a premature Godwin

From a full-service restaurant's point of view:

If the bar is used as another section of the dining room, and the bar stools need to be kept on deck in a certain way (i.e. side-by-each to accommodate deuces who will arrive later), and diners sit themselves down at the bar and begin their meal period without any guidance from the restaurant as to seating, then it should be up to the restaurant staff to move these diners in an appropriate fashion when the time comes to make more space. I don't think this applies in a drinking-bar situation, where it's every man (or woman) for themselves.

It should not be left up to Guest A to ask Guest B to move, because then you encounter the nastiness mentioned in the original post, and as far as I am concerned, the host has shirked their duties. The problem can be pretty much eliminated if there is communication between the restaurant and the guest during the initial seating. Menus should be placed in front of the bar stools and guests should be clearly directed to the bar stools so that they will not have to stand up and move later. A host who seats their bar haphazardly (and in the same vein, a host who seats deuces at four-tops) deserves the clusterf**k they're going to get later when there are too many butts and not enough seats.

Also, if a bar is used as another section of the dining room, and guests arrive who wish only to drink (or as we call them, "just drinkins"), I don't think it is unacceptable for the restaurant staff to say something like: "please be welcome to these seats for now, but it is likely that in the future people will arrive who might wish to sit here and dine (or in the case of reservations, people who have reserved these bar stools to dine), and the worst thing that could happen is we might ask you to finish your drink on our patio, and your drink will be on us" or something along those lines. In 10 years of working in the industry I have never had an issue with a guest who didn't understand this scenario--as long as the scenario is established up front and immediately. Full disclosure on part of the restaurant. In the original post the restaurant staff was clearly at fault for not taking control of the seating aspect from the get-go. And it sounds like the other guests were assholes, but that is beside the point.

From a different angle, in reservations-based dining, if the restaurant is running behind on table seating, and guests waiting for late reservations are clogging up the bar stools, it is NOT acceptable for the restaurant to ask these guests to stand to accommodate bar diners. Ever. You suck it up, and admit to your bar diners that you are running behind, and you offer an alternative (like free bubbly for everyone, including, most probably, yourself). I don't like restaurants where Guest A is forced to seat-stalk Guest B at the bar--this is why I can not go to Big Star. I need a host with a firm hand there to control the seating action, bar included.

Back on topic, asking a guest to move down at a bar should be done at an appropriate time in the meal period (preferably between courses), and it should never be done without some kind of compensation for the guest--a glass of wine, dessert, etc. It doesn't have to be all touchy-feely, nobody has to kowtow to anybody else, but it should be recognized as grace on the part of the guest, and a grace which should certainly be returned on the part of the restaurant.

In my experience, a lot of guests notice when they might need to move and move without being asked. Bless them.

EDIT: to say that personally, I am a seat ninja and can sense needing to move before it happens. BUT. If for some reason I didn't notice, and the person who asked me to move was A). an asshole, and B). disruptive, the reaction they would get from me would be a big fat stink-eye and they can sure stand and wait until I am done.

This has been an interesting thread.

But the question I have for Cinny's Mom is, if you are continually finding yourself being put into uncomfortable situations by dining solo or with another woman at a bar, why do you keep eating at the bar? Why not ask for a table?

The only reason I'd ever order dinner at the bar, solo or not, would be because a restaurant didn't have any tables available, and I didn't care to wait till one was free. But more likely, I'd go elsewhere. I don't find perching on a bar stool conducive to relaxed dining, for one reason, and I'm still subject to the indoctrination of my youth, for another.

I understand that some people enjoy the camaraderie of socializing with strangers at bars, but it doesn't seem like that's what's wanted here. What other appeal does eating at the bar have?

There are lots of good reasons not to dine at a bar, so I don't really expect to persuade you to do so. For myself, I like to dine at a bar if I have any doubts about service at a table being prompt or efficient. Especially when I'm alone; I get sort of panicked feeling stranded at a table. Also like to sit at a bar and eat a bunch of small plates and/or try different kinds of wine. With certain kinds of restuarants it just seems easier and maybe more fun. But as this question illustrates, you are sitting at a bar and you don't "own" your space the way you do at a table.

Harking back to that earlier thread, I really feel that bar dining has become so common that anyone who draws a conclusion that you are "up for grabs" from you doing it has a problem.

bibi rose wrote:Harking back to that earlier thread, I really feel that bar dining has become so common that anyone who draws a conclusion that you are "up for grabs" from you doing it has a problem.

Oh, I know that, and I'm long past that kind of concern, anyhow. It's just a leftover voice in my head, less important than that bar stools tend to put my legs to sleep.

Added to that, though, is the the better service some people say that get at the bar has not been my experience on the occasions I've tried it. Now, as I said, I'm only likely to eat at the bar when a restaurant is too busy to offer a table, which means that the bar is busy, too, but I haven't ever had what I'd call great food service at a bar. The most recent occasion, about a month ago, was no exception.