aschie30 wrote:
Which brings me to my next point -- how deeply ingrained the notion of cheap food is in our psyches. Our system is based on cheaply produced -- but vastly inferior products.

I could be wrong, but I believe that Kenny is complaining about *expensively* produced but vastly inferior products.

cilantro wrote:

aschie30 wrote:
Which brings me to my next point -- how deeply ingrained the notion of cheap food is in our psyches. Our system is based on cheaply produced -- but vastly inferior products.

I could be wrong, but I believe that Kenny is complaining about *expensively* produced but vastly inferior products.

You're right. I didn't get that far in Wendy's post because she lost me at:

Dominick's gets about the same amount for bad peppers too, but because they're the standard, and not the newbies, everyone's okay with them.

I think I've written enough about Dominick's to make it pretty clear that I'm not OK with their peppers or much else that they sell in that produce department. This is not a case of picking on the newbies. I'm an equal opportunity picker onner.

The farmers aren't trying to rip you off -- they're dealing with Mother Nature as well as business concerns.

I am assuming that you have not seen the WI vendor at the so-called (franchised) Wilmette "French" market, repacking Driscoll strawberries into rustic balsa wood baskets, and quintupling the selling price (since witnessing that act, I find that whole market suspect now, and pass it by). I've even had Evanston flower vendors rat each other out to me, regarding sellers who don't grow their own flowers, as is supposedly the requirement at the EFM.

Re: my writings on the Ravinia and Skokie markets on thelocalbeet.com, I just avoid writing about vendors who hawk questionable produce, though there is one vendor common to both markets at whom I openly looked askance recently in regard to a hilariously overpriced and tasteless plum variety a few weeks ago.

DK asked:

I can't remember who it was now, but there was a rather prominent restaurateur in Chicago @ 20 years ago that owned a farm that supplied his tomatoes, etc. Anyone remember who this was?

Gordon Sinclair.

Hi- Yes you are supposed to grow what you bring to the Evanston market. There was a flower guy that used to come to the Evanston market, that used to sell his remaining bunches of flowers for $1 a bunch. I am sure that he did not raise most of those flowers, and might have not raised any of them. There were probably day old flowers he got wholesale for not much money.

That is probably why he is not there any more. There is somebody else that got kicked out of Evanston because he was selling California plums, and telling people they were home grown. He was also telling people that he used a minimal amount of pesticides on his peaches, when I knew that those peaches were not his. This was back in 1995, when all of the peach growers in Berrien County froze out. We had 5 crates of peaches on 80 acres of land, and we have some of the best land for growing peaches in the county. The only people in Michigan that had peaches that year were farmers that were North of us. From South Haven to Traverse City, they had some peaches that year.

This person is now selling at the French Market in Wilmette, as well as up at Ravinia.
BTW- The person at the Wilmette market that was selling the California berries, was probably the same person that used to sell at Evanston, and most of the stuff he sold he got from the Water Street Market. He sells lettuce when nobody else does.

Personally I hate the French market in Wilmette. It is too commercial for me. They have people selling jewelry and t-shirts.

I have no problem if somebody mostly sells their own stuff, and maybe sells one or two things that they did not grow, as long as all their stuff is locally grown. There are at least three growers that come to Evanston, that buy peaches from my sister when they are out of their own peaches. Hope this helps, Nancy

I have no problem if somebody mostly sells their own stuff, and maybe sells one or two things that they did not grow, as long as all their stuff is locally grown

I have been shopping at the Evanston market for a long, long time, and if anything, the vendors are sketchier now than they ever have been. Earlier this summer, I stopped at one of the cheese purveyors who was advertising "fresh mozzarella." I asked for some, and the young lady pulled a ball of Belgioioso out of a cooler - the very same stuff that they sell at Treasure Island - and attempted to charge me seven dollars for the 6-8 oz. ball. And my encounter with the finger-pointing flower vendor was about this time last summer, not way back in the day.

The market organizers are permitting many arts-and-crafts vendors this summer, as well - and not particularly good stuff, either. Maybe 1.5 steps up from black velvet Elvis paintings, in many cases.

Caveat emptor.

Gordon Sinclair

thank you, sundevilpeg. that's been bugging me all week since I asked.

Hi- The artists they have been having at the Evanston farmer's market, are all Evanston residents, and that is the only criteria required to sell their art work there. There is a wide range of art there. Some of it is first class, and some of it isn't.

I've never bought any cheese there.

Thanks, Nancy

I visited the Evanston FM yesterday. My usual market is Oak Park but I missed it because I needed to be in Skokie early. Hence the Evanston FM. I was, admitedly, on a misison to purchase Swiss Chard so I wasn't looking closely at most vendors. I did notice artists and flower vendors but didn't really think too much about it. I did find chard...at one vendor who had only a couple of sad looking bunches left (it was later in the morning) and at one of my favorite vendors: Nichols. I bought 2 from them. I shouldn't have bought the first bunch I saw at the other vendor but I was fearful that I wouldn't find more. Silly me. Also only noticed one cheese vendor: Brunkow. I'd suspected that Oak Park is a particularly nice FM and my visit to Evanston confirmed that impression.

I've been to a few Bensidoun French Markets (yes a commercial enterprise that handles all the management of these markets) and am reminded that they don't promote these as "farmer's markets" but rather as shopping experiences. My expectations shifted when I realized this. Wilmette, Wheaton, Villa Park, and many other markets are Bensidoun-USA French Markets, and not what I'd call farmer's markets.

Diannie wrote:I did find chard...at one vendor who had only a couple of sad looking bunches left (it was later in the morning) and at one of my favorite vendors: Nichols. I bought 2 from them.

I think we're getting to the end of swiss chard season. This was a great season for it in June and July. I couldn't help but buy it nearly every week it was so beautiful. There wasn't much of a good looking crop this week.

In defense of the Evanston Farmer's Market, I shop there regularly and I think it's one of the best around, in spite of the 4 or 5 crappy tents.

The pros are numerous: Henry's Farm, Green Acres, Iron Creek, Nichol's, Stover, River Valley, Trader's Point Creamery, a number of very small organic farmers, Brunkow cheese, free parking, entertainment, and proximity to Edzo's.

I'd visit the market if the only places they had were Henry's and Green Acres.

True although Nichols had a good amount of it and the other vendor did say they had more on the farm but didn't bring it because they perceived a low demand. I was happy with what I bought, I just wish I had looked around before buying the first bunch. Oh well, it isn't the worst 3 bucks I've ever spent.

I didn't mean to imply that the Evanston FM was bad, only that I'm spoiled by Oak Park. Still, there's a huge difference between the Bensidoun French Markets and other, more food focused, farmers markets.

best,

Hi- Actually Evanston, Oak Park and GCM are supposed to have the best farmer's markets in the Chicago area. I want to go to GCM some time. I just don't want to pay for parking, and it is not very accessible to the Red line.

Besides Evanston, I have been to Skokie, Northfield, Wilmette, Glencoe and Ravinia, and Evanston has by far the best market on the north shore. The French markets are the worst ones. I only go to the Wilmette market because they open up the beginning of May, and I go there to purchase asparagus. I also have a board meeting I attend in Wilmette on one Saturday morning a month.

Besides Nichols's, I am sure Henry would have had swiss chard. Henry is a little more expensive on some stuff than Nichol's, but his quality is better, and he is organic. The majority of the organic growers probably also had swiss chard there. One of the organic growers is just way too expensive, and I never buy anything from him. Trader's Point is also out of my budget.

Swiss chard actually likes cool weather, so in another month, the quality should be way better. There should be swiss chard there until they close the beginning of November. Swiss chard can stand it down to about 25 degrees.

Some of the fruit growers at Evanston, I never buy from because they charge a ton if you only get one quart, but give you a good deal if you buy 3 quarts. Even though I love peaches, there is no way I can eat three quarts worth every week. When it comes to fruit, I mostly buy from First Orchards, Seedlings, Kublicks, and K&K Farms. The only complaint I have about Seedlings, is that they do not have any prices posted, and I have to ask. Sometimes you can get a really good deal from Seedlings though, when they want to go home. The couple that sells at Evanston for Seedlings are really nice though, and the husband works on the farm.

It is almost always better to look around before you buy anything, so you can compare prices and quality. Hope this helps, Nancy

The pros are numerous: Henry's Farm, Green Acres, Iron Creek, Nichol's, Stover, River Valley, Trader's Point Creamery, a number of very small organic farmers, Brunkow cheese, free parking, entertainment, and proximity to Edzo's.

Thanks for the shout-out. Don't forget Kinnikinnick and Seedling, two more very good vendors. I also love Henry's and GA.

There is a second cheese vendor at the Evanston Farmer's market. I wish I knew their name, but they are nice folks from Wisconsin. They are next to Nichols and across from Henri's. They make some of the cheeses, and a few they get from other folks in Wisconsin. I'm quite fond of their mozzarella, which they don't make, but they get from someone else (not a commercial outfit, clearly).

Jonah

Trader's Point is the one with the fromage blanc, right up against the parking structure, Brunkow is the one that always has the cheese grilling and they do multiple ages of cheddar, up to 20 years, and a third one, near the SE corner, sells lots of cheese curds, goat cheeses, and other fresher cheeses. They're all quite good.

elakin wrote:

The pros are numerous: Henry's Farm, Green Acres, Iron Creek, Nichol's, Stover, River Valley, Trader's Point Creamery, a number of very small organic farmers, Brunkow cheese, free parking, entertainment, and proximity to Edzo's.

Thanks for the shout-out. Don't forget Kinnikinnick and Seedling, two more very good vendors. I also love Henry's and GA.

Eddie, your proximity to the market as been about the driving fact in getting my father to tolerate farmer's markets this summer. Several times, my mother has dragged him from Northbrook to the Evanston market because of the promise of burgers and the Taylor St. fries afterwards.

Anyways, as someone in love with GCM, Oak Park and Evanston, picking a favorite would be like, of course, picking a favorite child--luckily I've sold that problem in my house by showing favoritism to the dog. Oak Park will always be my market as I know most of the vendors, and on any given day I seem to know half the customers. And the donuts. Still, the Evanston market is very, very good, with perhaps a better all around selection because Henry and Green Acres and such really mix it up. There're all good. Did some one call them BS?

AngrySarah wrote:<snip>

For example the scientific evidence that organic food is better for you is really not there. But it makes people feel virtuous to buy local, organic and seasonal and thus people are willing to pay a premium. <snip>

Well, it seems the scientific evidence is now in Commercial Organic Farms Have Better Fruit and Soil, Lower Environmental Impact, Study Finds

"Side-by-side comparisons of organic and conventional strawberry farms and their fruit found the organic farms produced more flavorful and nutritious berries while leaving the soil healthier and more genetically diverse." emphasis mine

Diannie wrote:

AngrySarah wrote:<snip>

For example the scientific evidence that organic food is better for you is really not there. But it makes people feel virtuous to buy local, organic and seasonal and thus people are willing to pay a premium. <snip>

Well, it seems the scientific evidence is now in Commercial Organic Farms Have Better Fruit and Soil, Lower Environmental Impact, Study Finds

"Side-by-side comparisons of organic and conventional strawberry farms and their fruit found the organic farms produced more flavorful and nutritious berries while leaving the soil healthier and more genetically diverse." emphasis mine

Self-interested scientist is self-interested... From his website:

He has become one of the premier scientists in the world in sustainable agricultural research, as evidenced by his publications in Science, Nature, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), Scientific American, and other land-use and soil science journals. Dr. Reganold is co-author of three editions of a textbook titled Natural Resource Conservation: Toward a Sustainable Future and co-editor of the book, Organic Agriculture: A Global Perspective.

http://css.wsu.edu/research/production_ ... ganold.htm

Tell me how he's any different from someone who is paid by the conventional farming industry again?

chitrader wrote:Self-interested scientist is self-interested... From his website:

He has become one of the premier scientists in the world in sustainable agricultural research, as evidenced by his publications in Science, Nature, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), Scientific American, and other land-use and soil science journals. Dr. Reganold is co-author of three editions of a textbook titled Natural Resource Conservation: Toward a Sustainable Future and co-editor of the book, Organic Agriculture: A Global Perspective.

http://css.wsu.edu/research/production_ ... ganold.htm
Tell me how he's any different from someone who is paid by the conventional farming industry again?

Where does it indicate that he's being paid by Big Organic? I mean, if he wasn't publishing research papers and books, you'd impugn his credibility and subject matter expertise, right?

-Dan

dansch wrote:

chitrader wrote:Self-interested scientist is self-interested... From his website:

He has become one of the premier scientists in the world in sustainable agricultural research, as evidenced by his publications in Science, Nature, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), Scientific American, and other land-use and soil science journals. Dr. Reganold is co-author of three editions of a textbook titled Natural Resource Conservation: Toward a Sustainable Future and co-editor of the book, Organic Agriculture: A Global Perspective.

http://css.wsu.edu/research/production_ ... ganold.htm
Tell me how he's any different from someone who is paid by the conventional farming industry again?

Where does it indicate that he's being paid by Big Organic? I mean, if he wasn't publishing research papers and books, you'd impugn his credibility and subject matter expertise, right?

-Dan

If he came at the subject without a bias either way, then sure. But he's published 3 versions of a sustainable farming book. Whatever "Big Organic" is doesn't really matter. He clearly is predisposed to a particular answer.

It doesn't make him wrong, but I'd hardly say that because of this study, the science is in.

chitrader wrote:If he came at the subject without a bias either way, then sure. But he's published 3 versions of a sustainable farming book. Whatever "Big Organic" is doesn't really matter. He clearly is predisposed to a particular answer.

Guys does scientific research. Said research gets peer reviewed and published in scholarly journals. Guy writes book about said research. Books then prove guy had bias that influenced the research?

Oh, I get it... He went to Berkeley.

You know, I always thought his piece "Use of Phospholipid Fatty Acids and Carbon Source Utilization Patterns To Track Microbial Community Succession in Developing Compost" leaned a little to the left.

chitrader wrote:It doesn't make him wrong, but I'd hardly say that because of this study, the science is in.

That's fair, and I certainly never claimed it was. Generally in science there are no definitive "the science is in" moments, the closest you ever get is broad consensus, with an openness to having conflicting evidence discovered through subsequent research.

-Dan

edited once, because clearly I didn't go to Berkeley...

.

dansch wrote:Oh, I get it... He went to Berkley.

Berkeley.

But, yeah, to impugn him because he has published is a little silly.

Darren72 wrote:

dansch wrote:Oh, I get it... He went to Berkley.

Berkeley.

A fine school, which clearly I wasn't qualified to get in to.

-Dan

At least you didn't call it "Cal".

dansch wrote:

Darren72 wrote:

dansch wrote:Oh, I get it... He went to Berkley.

Berkeley.

A fine school, which clearly I wasn't qualified to get in to.

-Dan

Well at least it wasn't The Berkley School of Music. Perhaps *you* can play guitar without following a formula.

Darren72 wrote:At least you didn't call it "Cal".

He didn't because he didn't go there!

Darren72 wrote:

dansch wrote:Oh, I get it... He went to Berkley.

Berkeley.

But, yeah, to impugn him because he has published is a little silly.

I didn't impugn him because he published. What I'm saying is that the original link suggested "the science is in" because a researcher said that strawberries grown organically and/or sustainably are better tasting and more nutritious than conventionally farmed strawberries.

But his own webpage describes himself thusly:

Dr. Reganold and his teams work to provide answers concerning how alternative systems can be more sustainable than their conventional counterparts. His research has shown that organic, biodynamic, and integrated farming systems are more sustainable, and that their practices can mitigate some of the hazardous effects of conventional agriculture on the environment.

Is it therefore surprising that his latest study confirms everything he's ever published?

Oh, and I turned down Cal to go to Northwestern.

Vital Information wrote:Anyways, as someone in love with GCM, Oak Park and Evanston, picking a favorite would be like, of course, picking a favorite child--luckily I've sold that problem in my house by showing favoritism to the dog. Oak Park will always be my market as I know most of the vendors, and on any given day I seem to know half the customers. And the donuts. Still, the Evanston market is very, very good, with perhaps a better all around selection because Henry and Green Acres and such really mix it up. There're all good. Did some one call them BS?

I'll call BS. Oak Park was a crap farmer's market. I have better luck in Flossmoor, and it's mostly a joke too.

Diannie wrote:

AngrySarah wrote:<snip>

For example the scientific evidence that organic food is better for you is really not there. But it makes people feel virtuous to buy local, organic and seasonal and thus people are willing to pay a premium. <snip>

Well, it seems the scientific evidence is now in Commercial Organic Farms Have Better Fruit and Soil, Lower Environmental Impact, Study Finds

"Side-by-side comparisons of organic and conventional strawberry farms and their fruit found the organic farms produced more flavorful and nutritious berries while leaving the soil healthier and more genetically diverse." emphasis mine

One of the interesting things about the human mind is we don't use evidence to form opinions. We form opinions and then emphasize the evidence that supports our opinions and then ignore or explain away all the evidence to the contrary. It does not make us bad that we think this way, it makes us human.

That said, it is my general opinion that organic/local food movement is arbitrary and does not have a strong basis in fact. It is a belief system, like being a Unitarian or a fan of the Iowa Hawkeyes. I could try to convince people otherwise but in the long run who cares? It is harmless for the most part. If people want to spend their money on such things then who am I to tell them that they are wrong? And even if I chose to tell them such things they would not listen and get annoyed at me for trying.

Except if you like Michigan. That is plain wrong.

AngrySarah wrote:Except if you like Michigan. That is plain wrong.

Uncalled for! It's okay though, thinking back to this past Saturday's game will put the smile right back on my face

I'm curious - what are your thoughts on the stuff I've read about how organically-grown vegetables being less pesticide-infused? After reading a lot of that stuff, I have started buying organic root vegetables & non-peel-able fruits & veggies (I still by conventionally-grown peel-able stuff, because it's cheaper and I figure I'm throwing away most of the pesticides with the peel).