Just a side comment on Arthur Bryant's. I went to Kansas City recently for a weekend just to sample the BBQ. To my shock, Arthur Bryant's was the worst. I did find it dreadful. (For those wondering, I loved Oklahoma Joe's and LC's). Dinosaur BBQ upstate is far better than anything Arthur Bryant's is putting out. OK now back to the debate.

DutchMuse wrote:Just a side comment on Arthur Bryant's. I went to Kansas City recently for a weekend just to sample the BBQ. To my shock, Arthur Bryant's was the worst. I did find it dreadful. (For those wondering, I loved Oklahoma Joe's and LC's). Dinosaur BBQ upstate is far better than anything Arthur Bryant's is putting out. OK now back to the debate.

Hey the OA Guide comes to the same exact conclusions. It must be voodoo.

The point wasn't that the surveyed misjudge Arthur Bryant's mediocrity, it's that they greatly misjudge Dino's greatness.

Really, tough delivery aside, your points in this thread have logical appeal, as does the basic concept of a Yelp/Zagat survey with a pool of on-average less-stupid reviewers. The high-end list seems valuable, even if it does appear to have a NY-SF bias that is almost quaint in 2011 and I suspect reflects the demographics of the critic pool. But the low-end stuff is tougher to discover, particularly when travelling, so the need for that information is greater. Above you've demonstrated that high-end dining afficianados tend not to appreciate low-end ethnic options commensurately (LA is a good example that resonates; my lifelong West Side friends couldn't find Thai Town with a map). OA's superficial rankings in that area just don't add value. That well-travelled foodies have to eat cheap lunch sometimes, too, doesn't justify that cheap eats list. Come on now, it's all over the place. Katz's is way up there but Russ & Daughters, Barney Greengrass and Langers aren't; lots of snooty pizza shops, but not Great Lake; a sort of random Manhattan banh mi shop is the lone Asian entry with nary a bowl of pho, ramen or dumpling to be seen; no Desi, Thai or Mexican entries in the top 20? No Mexican? Custard, BBQ and pizza. We sure love those here in the Midwest and all, but it's a pretty weak list.

Okay so I will say two things about your last post:

1. You are correct

2. My book is an accurate reflection of how most people who are into fine dining feel about cheap eats.

As you have said above, most people who are into fine dining are not travelling from the West Side of LA to Arcardia to eat at Golden Deli. And there is a simple reason why: It's really not that good. The reason I know that is that one Sunday night before taking a redeye back to New York, my wife and I schlepped from Beverly Hills to Arcadia to try the place and she still hasn't forgiven me for it. And I have to tell you, I find that to be typical of most of the cheap eats places I go to.

As to some of the places you mentioned, Russ & Daughters is not on the survey because you can't eat there. Barney Greengrass is, but the quality has gone downhill since Mo Greengrass passed away and his nephew took over. If you had the book, it explains it in detail in the review. Langer's is on the book, and while it is recommended, it doesn't have such a high score. That's because only people who live in LA seem to like it. I kid you not. But in the end of the day, nobody is buying my book for the list of cheap eat places. They are buying it to find out about places like Kai or Revolver or Castagna in Portland. That they might be able to dedicate a meal to going to Pizzeria Bianco while they happen to be checking out the fine dining scene in the greater Phoenix area is merely the icing on the cake for them.

I am not sure if you participate in the survey or not, but I would love to have you. I'd be happy to send you a copy of the book in exchange for you filling it out. You'll find that it's like eating potato chips and completely addicting.

riddlemay wrote:I'm inclined to think that the very question of what is subjective and what is objective doesn't matter. What matters is whether the book serves as an enjoyable read, and as a gateway to an increased number of enjoyable restaurant experiences for its readers.

Just an addendum to that to say that I went ahead and ordered the book from Amazon. When it arrives, and I've sampled it enough to form an impression, I'll post it.

The methodology won't matter to me as much as the credibility I sense coming from its pages (or not). When I read the books of Pauline Kael, it doesn't matter to me that she's a sample of one and she dwells in the realm of subjectivity. What matters is that I know she knows movies, and that she shares her passions cogently, compellingly and persuasively. I have no way to know yet whether I'll sense similar value coming from the pages of OAD--I may not. Obtaining the book is about answering that question for myself.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:But in the end of the day, nobody is buying my book for the list of cheap eat places. They are buying it to find out about places like Kai or Revolver or Castagna in Portland.

OK, so Portland I can talk about. And I can say that no one needs to be informed about Castagna; it is one of the most written about places in Portland, was the Oregonian's Restaurant of the year 2010, etc. AND I can say that it was one of the worst meals we had when we were there. Save your money, go to Sympatica Friday or Saturday suppers, where they are doing more or less the same thing, yet with tastier/more successful flavor combinations. Additionally, whoever does Sympatica's wine pairings was far more successful at finding matches to the dishes than whoever does it for Castagna. Finally, the wait staff at Sympatica asked if we liked our meal, if we were enjoying ourselves, if we wanted anything else, etc. People need to know about Sympatica. Castagna does have white tablecloths, and many places in Portland do not. This is true.

So I am happy to give away 5 free copies of the book to LTH members. All you have to do is be one of the first 5 people to send me a mailing address by PM and the book will magically appear at your doorstep next week. Please include an email address in the PM as well. Thanks.

I received the book a few days ago.

My very capsule review: A fun, illuminating browse. In the case of restaurants I've been to, fun to see how the opinions agree with or differ from mine. In the case of restaurants I haven't been to and may never get to, fun to experience them vicariously. In the case of restaurants in cities we will be visiting in the near future, a useful guide in narrowing our choices.

I don't demand that it be more or less authoritative than, say, the bi-yearly Penguin Guide to Recorded Classical Music. That is, somewhat authoritative, but I don't expect every subjective experience reported to be the same as mine, and that isn't the point.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:So I am happy to give away 5 free copies of the book to LTH members. All you have to do is be one of the first 5 people to send me a mailing address by PM and the book will magically appear at your doorstep next week. Please include an email address in the PM as well. Thanks.

received my copy yesterday.

At a glance the book appears well organized, and will come in handy when I travel outside of Chicago.

Glad to hear that. I might be able to squeeze out a few more copies of anyone would like to have one. Just send me a PM with your address.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:I might be able to squeeze out a few more copies

For what it's worth, that's pretty much how I imagined the creative process.

I receive my copy yesterday. There's a lot of restaurants covered in there. I'm looking forward to diving into the content this weekend. Thanks, Steve!!