What's Up with Zagat in Chicago?

I've recently moved to Chicago from NY and am having trouble with the local Zagat guide. Now in NYC, Zagat was quite accurate and reliable with decent restaurants starting around 18 (out of 30). 18 would be decent and 27-30 would be your euphoric, orgasmic, out-of-this-world food experiences. I, and quite a few of my friends, would as a rule check the Zagat rating before going out to a new place in New York. Here, in Chicago, I find that majority of the restaurants rated below 22 are simply horrific and some that rate higher are wholly undeserving of the rating. Examples: Catch 35 being much much worse than Hot Chocolate (both rated 23) and Bin 36 being at least on the same level of Catch 35 if not better and yet rated a 20. What's the deal? Do the locals use this guide here or is it a waste of time and money? Does anyone know of better guides?

Za-gat?

Seriously, I'm surprised you even relied on Zagat in NYC. I think the Chicago guide generally gets the top top places right (although not entirely IIRC), but the rest is a bit of a mess.

I think that here you have to rely on a bunch of sources with some being more useful than others for different purposes (i.e., if you're looking for info on ethnic/neighborhood places you will not do any better than LTHForum). The Trib, Chicago Magazine, egullet, the Reader, and Time Out all serve various degrees of useful purposes.

One final thought - try to limit your NYC/Chicago comparisons as much as you can. It will help you enjoy your new city far more than trying to replicate experiences in your old city.

hungryinchicago wrote:Do the locals use this guide here or is it a waste of time and money? Does anyone know of better guides?

I've found LTH Forum to be the best source of restaurant information in the city by a long shot. I haven't looked at Zagat in years. As Jestinf says, LTH is particularly strong in the small ethnic food types of places, but also has very good reviews (including fabulous photography, if I do say so myself) on most of the worthy high end places in town as well.

Hungryinchicago-

I personally don't know anyone in town who uses the Zagat guide. In my opinion, your best resource is the LTHForum website. I would like to assure you that the dining in Chicago is not as bleak as you seem to have painted it on your website. Explore this site, explore the city and let us know what you find!

-The GP

Count me among those who are surprised you rely on Zagat at all, hungry, even in New York. Do yourself a favor and just throw that rag away (or delete the bookmark). If you check out the places on this list that look interesting to you, and lose the "I'm from New York and I expect to be disappointed" attitude, that's a great start and you'll most likely be pleasantly surprised. What's more, it would help to go to the city's strengths rather than picking at its weaknesses. If you're coming from NY and you insist on looking for great sushi, you're just looking for something to complain about (which isn't to say there aren't some decent spots here, but not like you're accustomed to). If you start exploring Thai and regional Mexican, though, you're going to quickly discover there are a lot of things here that are -- believe it or not -- better than NY.

Zagat is useful to keep in the car, in case you need an address or phone number for an eatery that is not a Great Neighborhood Restaurant. Other than that, it's pretty much useless . . . but the cover sure is a pretty color.

=R=

Hungry,

A quick look at your blog tells me that your restaurant-choosing methods need some work. I'm a NYer too, and Zagat is as useless there as it is here.

But, kudos to you for finally finding the right way to figure out where to dine. Welcome to LTHForum.

Kennyz

Kennyz wrote:Hungry,

A quick look at your blog tells me that your restaurant-choosing methods need some work. I'm a NYer too, and Zagat is as useless there as it is here.

But, kudos to you for finally finding the right way to figure out where to dine. Welcome to LTHForum.

Kennyz

Put me in the camp who uses Zagat quite often, but with a grain of salt. If you just look at restaurants as being in categories (say 25-30 for food vs 10-15 for food) then for the most part it's pretty right.

jpschust wrote:Put me in the camp who uses Zagat quite often, but with a grain of salt. If you just look at restaurants as being in categories (say 25-30 for food vs 10-15 for food) then for the most part it's pretty right.

Perhaps, but if the best that can be said about Zagat is that, for the most part, it accurately separates the okay and well-known from the good and well-known, is that really a ringing endorsement?

(To say nothing of all of the places that a guide like Zagat wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.)

Thanks to everyone who responded for your great tips. I knew there was something wrong with Zagat! Somewhat surprising that - since it is quite useful in NYC. I wonder why it is so unpolished here. In any case, I am glad I found this forum - things are certainly looking up.

I must respond to Josh's comment:

jesteinf wrote:
One final thought - try to limit your NYC/Chicago comparisons as much as you can. It will help you enjoy your new city far more than trying to replicate experiences in your old city.

I hope you're not trying to say that the food in Chicago is that much worse than the food in NYC. Of course I'll be comparing and judging all of my future experiences by my past ones! That's simply human nature. I'll try to be open-minded about it and will follow the tips that I get from the local connoisseurs, but if Chicago's food turns out to be worse than NYC's, well then Chicago will just have to step things up before the 2016 Olympics or I'll just have to learn to cook.

Dmnkly wrote: What's more, it would help to go to the city's strengths rather than picking at its weaknesses.... If you start exploring Thai and regional Mexican, though, you're going to quickly discover there are a lot of things here that are -- believe it or not -- better than NY.

Dmnkly, I resent the implication you are making re me dissing Chicago generally. My blog focuses on the food and not on other aspects of the city, some of which (like the greenery, the theater offerings, the free concerts in the park, the architecture) I admired from the start. The food offerings, or at least those I've come across thus far, were sub-par. Hence my appeal to the public on this forum to steer me in the direction of something better. If you believe Chicago's got something to offer in the food department, then by all means, convince me - let me know where to go and what to try and I will. Where are those Thai and regional Mexican places you speak of? Please be more specific. And there's no need to be all snippity about it.

hungryinchicago wrote:Thanks to everyone who responded for your great tips. I knew there was something wrong with Zagat! Somewhat surprising that - since it is quite useful in NYC. I wonder why it is so unpolished here. In any case, I am glad I found this forum - things are certainly looking up.

I must respond to Josh's comment:

jesteinf wrote:
One final thought - try to limit your NYC/Chicago comparisons as much as you can. It will help you enjoy your new city far more than trying to replicate experiences in your old city.

I hope you're not trying to say that the food in Chicago is that much worse than the food in NYC. Of course I'll be comparing and judging all of my future experiences by my past ones! That's simply human nature. I'll try to be open-minded about it and will follow the tips that I get from the local connoisseurs, but if Chicago's food turns out to be worse than NYC's, well then Chicago will just have to step things up before the 2016 Olympics or I'll just have to learn to cook.

With all due respect, saying NYC's food is "better" or Chicago's food is "better" is far far too simplistic of an analysis. NYC does a lot of things well. Chicago does a lot of things well. From reading your blog it looks like you've been to Tsuki, VTK, and Girodano's. Based on those choices I'm not surprised you don't have a very high opinion of the food here.

Get to some GNR's. Have some authentic Thai and Mexican food. Go to Alinea and Schwa. Got to Burt's Place. Then let us know what you think.

hungryinchicago wrote:

Dmnkly wrote: What's more, it would help to go to the city's strengths rather than picking at its weaknesses.... If you start exploring Thai and regional Mexican, though, you're going to quickly discover there are a lot of things here that are -- believe it or not -- better than NY.

Dmnkly, I resent the implication you are making re me dissing Chicago generally. My blog focuses on the food and not on other aspects of the city, some of which (like the greenery, the theater offerings, the free concerts in the park, the architecture) I admired from the start. The food offerings, or at least those I've come across thus far, were sub-par. Hence my appeal to the public on this forum to steer me in the direction of something better. If you believe Chicago's got something to offer in the food department, then by all means, convince me - let me know where to go and what to try and I will. Where are those Thai and regional Mexican places you speak of? Please be more specific. And there's no need to be all snippity about it.

Who said anything about anything other than food? Certainly not me.

Regarding food, however, if I've misread your attitude, you have my sincerest apologies, but surely you must realize how this comes across:

Hungry In Chicago wrote:I am a New Yorker, an avid restaurant-goer who has recently made the much dreaded move to Chicago. In this blog I will explore and share my Chicago culinary experiences. Let's see how Chicagoland stacks up against the good old NYC.

To say nothing of this:

Hungry In Chicago wrote:I am a New Yorker who has recently moved to Chicago and my first question is why?!!! Why are there no good restaurants in this city?!

After reading this on your blog, how is one to take your attitude other than "I'm from New York and I expect to be disappointed"?

I'm all too happy, as is everybody here, to point you towards all kinds of great places (in fact, I believe I did just that, pointing you towards the GNR list with a suggestion to start with Thai and regional Mexican). But this is not exactly getting off on the right foot. You've already implied on your blog that to find something worth eating in Chicago is going to require an exhaustive search. Intentionally or not, that's more than a little insulting.

As said by somebody else above, kudos for searching. We're happy to help. We'll be happier to help if you drop the condescending tone and the hyperbole and not make sweeping generalizations about how awful the restaurant scene is in Chicago based on very, very limited experience and some really poor restaurant choices*. If I went to New York, ate at a couple of chain restaurants and a couple of mediocre midscale joints and declared that there are no good restaurants in the city, you wouldn't think much of my attitude, either.

(* - Not your fault... unless you can be faulted for reading Zagat )

Dmnkly wrote:I'm all too happy, as is everybody here, to point you towards all kinds of great places (in fact, I believe I did just that, pointing you towards the GNR list with a suggestion to start with Thai and regional Mexican). But this is not exactly getting off on the right foot. You've already implied on your blog that to find something worth eating in Chicago is going to require an exhaustive search. Intentionally or not, that's more than a little insulting.

As said by somebody else above, kudos for searching. We're happy to help. We'll be happier to help if you drop the condescending tone and not make sweeping generalizations about the restaurant scene in Chicago based on very, very limited experience.

Agreed - as to not getting off on the right foot. The first few posts on my blog were the direct result of Giordano's and the like (I must have been in shock). I did write about more positive experiences in my subsequent postings (http://hungrynchicago.blogspot.com/2008 ... n-ham.html) and (http://hungrynchicago.blogspot.com/2008 ... art-i.html). In fact, my next post is going to be about Hot Chocolate, which I thought was awesome for dessert. In any case, I don't mean to offend anyone here and will certainly take you all up on your suggestions re GNR list, etc. Thanks again for the prompt responses everyone. Will report back after I explore a few more places. Hungry.

As a Chicagoan since 1971--a Baltimorean before then--color me unoffended by hungryinchicago's remarks. There is amazing food here. But there is food in Baltimore--and not just seafood--that I have yet to encounter the equal of here. I have yet to eat a Caesar salad as good as the one at the late, lamented Chesapeake Restaurant, or a burger as great as the griddled ones from "The Shack" at the Woodholme Country Club. (And I don't think it's just nostalgia talking.)

We (in Chicago) either have better food than NY, worse food than NY, or six-of-one, half-dozen-of-the-other. Whatever it is, it is what it is. To be irritated by an outsider's parochialism is to betray a certain defensiveness, a certain insecurity, which doesn't help make the case.

Now, my main problem with you from reading your blog, hungryinchicago, is that apparently you have a problem with Sinatra music in restaurants! What's your problem?

Hungy, I'm in NY all the time, as are many people here. Why not tell me and others about some places you think are "must try" restaurants that we can't find out about in Zagat or Time Out. For my own selfish purposes, I'm usually in Midtown in the vicinity of Grand Central and Rockefeller Plaza etc. I'm not above jumping in a cab or train downtown, but am unlikely to have time for, say, Russian in Queens or pizza on Staten Island. Looking forward to it. That's, in my opinion, the sort of info that's the strength of this forum, and it certainly is not limited to Chicago. Welcome.

riddlemay wrote:
We (in Chicago) either have better food than NY, worse food than NY, or six-of-one, half-dozen-of-the-other. Whatever it is, it is what it is. To be irritated by an outsider's parochialism is to betray a certain defensiveness, a certain insecurity, which doesn't help make the case.

Really? I'd say an outsider who goes to a city, then starts complaining about the food after going to 2 restaurants, is worthy of defensiveness.

I'll go out on a limb and say hungry, the Zagat-loving New Yorker, will be unfulfilled in his blog-driven effort to find decent food in chicago.

ab wrote:I'll go out on a limb and say hungry, the Zagat-loving New Yorker, will be unfulfilled in his blog-driven effort to find decent food in chicago.

I disagree. I get the distinct impression that Hungry is coming around - just had some bad experiences based on flawed, NYC-based restaurant exploration techniques. I'll bet that as soon as the latest GNR list is downloaded, there'll be plenty of happy posts on the blog.

riddlemay wrote:To be irritated by an outsider's parochialism is to betray a certain defensiveness, a certain insecurity, which doesn't help make the case. Now, my main problem with you from reading your blog, hungryinchicago, is that apparently you have a problem with Sinatra music in restaurants! What's your problem?

Riddlemay, good point about people being defensive around here. As to Sinatra - I can take a song or two, but not a constant barrage of them. Seriously, it just gets boring to hear it over and over again in every place you go to in the Loop. I think a bit more variety wouldn't hurt. But judging from the tips I'm getting, I should just stop going to restaurants in the Loop and all my problems will be solved.

JeffB wrote:Hungy, I'm in NY all the time, as are many people here. Why not tell me and others about some places you think are "must try" restaurants that we can't find out about in Zagat or Time Out. For my own selfish purposes, I'm usually in Midtown in the vicinity of Grand Central and Rockefeller Plaza etc. I'm not above jumping in a cab or train downtown, but am unlikely to have time for, say, Russian in Queens or pizza on Staten Island. Looking forward to it. That's, in my opinion, the sort of info that's the strength of this forum, and it certainly is not limited to Chicago. Welcome.

Oh absolutely - I couldn't be happier to share. Here's a list for midtown at least (in no particular order):

1. You'll never be disappointed by Remi for northern Italian although for a quick (and much less expensive) outing I would recommend Remi To Go (right across from the main restaurant). Here's the link: http://local.yahoo.com/info-11103484-re ... o-new-york.

2. Chinese - Tang Pavillion. http://www.menupages.com/restaurantdeta ... isineid=18

3. Japanese Sushi - there are too many to list, but a little known hole in the wall that I really like for lunch is Ise on 56th bet. 5th and 6th. But go either before or after the lunch hour rush since the place gets packed and you'll have to wait an hour for your table.

4. Jean-Georges in the Trump building on Columbus circle http://www.jean-georges.com/ is spectacular. Try the shrimp salad - I bet you never had anything that good. I think they still have their $21 3-course lunch, which is an excellent deal.

4. My absolute favorite for Thai - although it may be a bit out of your way - is Land http://www.landthaikitchen.com/landEast.html (the one on upper East is better than on upper West). The food is great and they have a 2 course lunch for $8 (yes $8 - it's insane).

5. If you're feeling adventurous, here's a list of the best street food carts - a few are in midtown. http://nymag.com/restaurants/features/33527/. A warning though - for #6, there's usually a line around the block.

Start with these and let me know if you want more. Happy munching.

P.S. A bunch of these are in Zagat's 'cause, as I said, Zagat's is not bad in NYC. Russian in Queens?! You gotta go to Brooklyn man. Really!

hungryinchicago wrote: Oh absolutely - I couldn't be happier to share. Here's a list for midtown at least (in no particular order):

A few more of my favorites:

6. Hummus Place - the best hummus in town. http://www.hummusplace.com/ Shakshuka with Halumi cheese is not bad either. I prefer the east village branch.

7. Right down the block from that is a great moroccan place - Cafe Mogador. http://www.menupages.com/restaurantdeta ... =45&home=Y
Try the tagines - they're awesome. They don't take reservations though, so you may need to wait an hour or more for a table. Fortunately, they have a bar and the wait is worth it.

8. Turkish - Pasha on upper West side. I think 63rd and Columbus.

9. Indian - In midtown, Bombay Palace on 52nd bet 5th and 6th is not bad for a lunch buffet: http://www.menupages.com/restaurantdeta ... isineid=32

10. If you like mussels and sangria - this place is great: Dublin at 575 Hudson St, Btwn W 11th & Bank St

I have quite a few more, but I better stop.

hungryinchicago wrote:

JeffB wrote:Hungy, I'm in NY all the time, as are many people here. Why not tell me and others about some places you think are "must try" restaurants that we can't find out about in Zagat or Time Out. For my own selfish purposes, I'm usually in Midtown in the vicinity of Grand Central and Rockefeller Plaza etc. I'm not above jumping in a cab or train downtown, but am unlikely to have time for, say, Russian in Queens or pizza on Staten Island. Looking forward to it. That's, in my opinion, the sort of info that's the strength of this forum, and it certainly is not limited to Chicago. Welcome.

Oh absolutely - I couldn't be happier to share. Here's a list for midtown at least (in no particular order):

1. You'll never be disappointed by Remi for northern Italian although for a quick (and much less expensive) outing I would recommend Remi To Go (right across from the main restaurant). Here's the link: http://local.yahoo.com/info-11103484-re ... o-new-york. Been there. Pretty good.

2. Chinese - Tang Pavillion. http://www.menupages.com/restaurantdeta ... isineid=18 Was there last month. I can see how some people dig it, but I didn't like it at all. Had a whole drunken fish that I expected to love, but it wasn't too great. I guess I'm just not a fan of "fancy" old-fashioned Chinese, having been to supposedly great ones in Toronto and NY. Much rather go to a dump in Chinatown or a newer place like momofuku.
3. Japanese Sushi - there are too many to list, but a little known hole in the wall that I really like for lunch is Ise on 56th bet. 5th and 6th. But go either before or after the lunch hour rush since the place gets packed and you'll have to wait an hour for your table. That sounds good. Will look it up.

4. Jean-Georges in the Trump building on Columbus circle http://www.jean-georges.com/ is spectacular. Try the shrimp salad - I bet you never had anything that good. I think they still have their $21 3-course lunch, which is an excellent deal. I think you will find such places in Chicago to be to your liking. For whatever reason, probably something to do with the economics of table turning and the organic development of such places by actual Chicago locals (not necessarily Euro imports) these high end spots tend to be better here, IME. Went to Gordon Ramsay in the London Hotel last month and was pretty bummed. Still have not been to Jean-Georges, and the lunch deal sounds good. Not really a "find" tho
4. My absolute favorite for Thai - although it may be a bit out of your way - is Land http://www.landthaikitchen.com/landEast.html (the one on upper East is better than on upper West). The food is great and they have a 2 course lunch for $8 (yes $8 - it's insane). Sorry. I have yet to be convinced that I should eat Thai ever again in the US outside LA or Chicago. Are we talking real Thai food from a specific region or regions, Americanized Thai, gussied up fancy Thai or what? I might take a chance, but need some convincing. Any fermented meats or dishes heavy on shrimp paste?
5. If you're feeling adventurous, here's a list of the best street food carts - a few are in midtown. http://nymag.com/restaurants/features/33527/. A warning though - for #6, there's usually a line around the block. Familiar with these in Midtown. Some are good. The lines give it away.
Start with these and let me know if you want more. Happy munching.

P.S. A bunch of these are in Zagat's 'cause, as I said, Zagat's is not bad in NYC. Russian in Queens?! You gotta go to Brooklyn man. Really!

Thanks for the tips. Se my comments above. Good cheap sushi is where it's at for me as something Midtown seems to offer in spades but is not too abundant here, so thanks especially for that reco.

PS, your follow up list has more of the kinds of places I am looking for. Indian is kind of like bringing coals to Newcastle, and you will know what I mean once you have visited Devon Ave., which you should. But the other stuff looks like a bunch of good options.

JeffB wrote:Sorry. I have yet to be convinced that I should eat Thai ever again in the US outside LA or Chicago. Are we talking real Thai food from a specific region or regions, Americanized Thai, gussied up fancy Thai or what? I might take a chance, but need some convincing. Any fermented meats or dishes heavy on shrimp paste?

I have been to Land, and it won't convince you, Jeff. It's "upper manhattan" Thai, all fancy-ed up and tied in with Western cooking techniques and presentations (kaffir lime creme brulee, should tell you all you need to know). It winks in the direction of Thailand but authentic Thai, it ain't.

HungryInChicago, if you have any interest in Thai, I suggest you make this a focal point of your Chicago explorations. There's more than one excellent Thai restaurant on the GNR list, and many more that are not on that list.

Best,
Michael

I lived in a couple of other places before I came to Chicago. I came here joyfully, though, and that colored my outlook in exploring the city's food as well as its other attributes. A few times I've had to consider opportunities to move elsewhere. Always, one of the considerations was that I never wanted to be one of those expatriates who hated where I lived, who always lived "back home" in spirit. As you see, I am still here.

Hungry, I don't know why you had to move to Chicago, but I'm sorry your move here was "dreaded."

You've gotten some good advice about food from others here and a little searching of this site will net you much more. I suspect that until you find yourself really happy to be here, you'll find it difficult to believe anything here exceeds your favorites from back home, whether or not it actually does. So I agree with those who suggest that you seek out the foods that Chicago does well that you can't get in New York.

I'll pass along some advice about that was given to me when I first moved here and that I've learned along the way.

Get a Turner street guide and learn at least the basics of the Chicago grid.

The lake is always east, but west can be north. (If you're going to be driving around Chicagoland, there's a lot more to learn, such as where to go when somebody says, "Get on the expressway," what the Spaghetti Bowl is, and why never to move a lawn chair you see in the street, but being from New York, I suspect you're not.)

To eat a Chicago sandwich (loaded dog, dipped beef, jibarito), lean forward, holding your body well out of drip range.

It may help you to appreciate Chicago-style pizza if you think of it as baked cheese en croute.

You'll probably hate the local version of thin-crust pizza (or "flat pizza," as it is often called here), but if you want one cut the way you're used to, order it "wedge cut." Otherwise, it will come cut in small squares like canapes (sometimes called "party cut"). Do not attempt to fold up Chicago flat pizza the way you're accustomed to fold a New York pizza -- it will crack.

Do not put ketchup on a hot dog.

Sign up for a free Chicago Greeter tour.

Wear a down coat and a hat in the winter. If you're going to be walking, add warm boots with nonslip soles. (It's colder here than New York and the wind off the lake can be very bitter. Sidewalks aren't cleared as well as one wishes they were.)

Do not attribute "The Windy City" to weather conditions.

The L is always the L, even when it's not elevated.

Praise what you love about the city and keep your disappointments to yourself. As you have by now learned, Chicagoans take it ill when you compare the city negatively to other places (even the suburbs ). You may think that's defensive insecurity, but voicing such opinions will not make you popular.

Smile and talk to people you encounter. Chicago is a friendly place.

When somebody asks, "Where are you from?" they often want to know your ethnic background or the country your ancestors came from, not the town you were born in or the place you live now.

Go see some off-Loop plays, watch some improv (go to several shows -- it's a medium that can take time to appreciate) and listen to some blues and jazz.

Frank Sinatra grows on you. Especially when the alternative is house.

LAZ wrote:Praise what you love about the city and keep your disappointments to yourself. As you have by now learned, Chicagoans take it ill when you compare the city negatively to other places (even the suburbs ). You may think that's defensive insecurity, but voicing such opinions will not make you popular.

This is a great list, LAZ, but if I may interject on one item here... I don't know anybody here who's so defensive that they don't like comparisons. We make them all the time. Hungry and I have corresponded in private and discussed this a bit already, but I don't think it's an issue of criticism, it's one of (perceived) tone. I'd amend this to say that it's best not to lend the impression (accurate or not) that you've prejudged Chicago's weaknesses. I hope nobody ever hesitates to compare cities in an intelligent and respectful manner.

Dmnkly wrote:I don't know anybody here who's so defensive that they don't like comparisons. We make them all the time. Hungry and I have corresponded in private and discussed this a bit already, but I don't think it's an issue of criticism, it's one of (perceived) tone. I'd amend this to say that it's best not to lend the impression (accurate or not) that you've prejudged Chicago's weaknesses. I hope nobody ever hesitates to compare cities in an intelligent and respectful manner.

Yes, it's tone to an extent. If you go around saying, "I tried Chicago pizza and it sucks," people will hate you at once. But it's opinion, too.

If you are constantly saying, "I like X and Y better back home than here," and "I can get Z in my hometown; why can't I get it here?" it doesn't matter how intelligently and respectfully you say it, you aren't going to win friends and influence people in Chicago. Sooner or later, people are going to think, "Well, if you like things so much better where you came from, why don't you go back there?"

At best, people will simply be convinced that there's something wrong with your taste.

Even if you mention weaknesses everyone acknowledges, and which aren't a matter of personal opinion, you can't win. Just try going into a North Side bar and calling the Cubs a bunch of losers. Most LTHers would probably concur that Chicago could stand to have many more good Jewish delis than it has, but that doesn't mean we aren't tired of hearing newcomers kvetch about the lack.

Like it or not, Chicagoans tend to be sensitive about the Second City, and even when we know our town doesn't shine, we don't enjoy hearing about it.

I guess I'll go ahead and be the only one to actually answer the OP's query.

Zagat in Chicago sucks because there are nowhere near as many users contributing reviews in Chicago and New York. That's partly why Milwaukee is included. When there aren't thousands of people submitting reviews, it's hard to get a more balanced view of restaurants in the Zagat guide.

This shows the basic scoring system issues in even starker relief here as well. When people rate restaurants in Zagat on decor, food and service, they have to give the restaurant a rating of 0, 1, 2, or 3. The average of all the ratings with a decimal place to the right becomes the score. So if you have less people rating restaurants, you're not going to get many of those "in-between" kinds of ratings like 24 or 25. I hope this makes sense.

Oh and if you already didn't figure this out, Zagat is rigged. Ratings are manipulated for better or worse depending on the kind of kickback Tim and Nina Zagat receive from the restaurant. So in general, although the Zagat guide might be a decent listing of restaurants on a neighborhood level, it is by no means a reliable or accurate source on restaurants in general. If I were you, I'd stick to LTH, Phil Vettel, Dish, Yelp, Time Out, these kinds of things, where the reviewers are somewhat accountable.

Proof that it's rigged, or is that just idle libel?

edit to note: I think the zagat guide is essentially worthless, because I don't trust the palates of people I don't know. If ronnie_suburban says a place is great, that means a lot more to me than if 30 zagat reviewers collectively give it a 2.4/3.0.

Proof?

Hmmm...I'm not quite sure how to provide proof of baksheesh or back slapping on the internet (as I'm sure you know). What I can say (that people can follow up on I suppose) is that restaurants that participate in Zagat-produced events or promotions see a bump in their ratings in the following year's guide, and those who don't see their ratings fall. There is a subtle blackmail that goes on. It's years of personal experience in the business (working for restaurants that both benefited and lost from association with the Zagats) and repeated personal contact with both the Zagats personally and their staff that taught me about this. It's not exactly a secret...

You can take this as you like, or you can leave it. I only know what I experienced, and that's hardly "idle" to me or to the people for whom I've worked.

LAZ wrote: Smile and talk to people you encounter. Chicago is a friendly place.[/list]

So you mean I shouldn't stare at people in amazement when they say hello on the street and wonder if they're about to mug me? Just teasing.
I'll give it a try. Thanks for the rest of the list too - I'm sure it'll be very helpful.

While we're all being friendly around here - can anyone point me to a good bagel place in the loop/streeterville vicinity? I can't find any and while running a search
on this forum only found suggestions for places that are an hour away on the L.