"I'll Never Go Back To That Place Again!"

In the past few days there have been a flurry of posts around service "issues" at both Patty's & TAC. Rather than have those threads or any other derail around those subjects, I figured a discussion on make-or-break moments in a separate thread would be worthwhile.

It seems (to me, at least) that there are three schools of thought on service and how it regards to the complete experience.

A) No amount of horrible treatment could get me to stay away from Chef X's ____.

B) I'm willing to accept a certain amount of inconsistency or disappointment in my experience at _____ up to a point, as long as the cuisine remains the focus.

C) This place just ain't worth the trouble and one bad experience will sour me for life.

...and all the sliding points in between.

In terms of personal experience, about 4 years ago I was having drinks at [REDACTED BUT NEVER MENTIONED ON LTH]. Two proprietors were working the bar, but not at the same time. My companion and I had a few drinks, ordered another round, recieved it, paid for it, and Proprietor A went back to the kitchen. Proprietor B started working the bar.

We finished our drinks and got up to leave. As we were halfway to the door, Proprietor B started screaming at us and accused us of theft. Why? Because we hadn't paid him for our drinks. I tried explaining that we had paid earlier, and because his outburst was so unexpected and violent I found myself doubting myself and thought, maybe he's right. I'll just pay for the drinks. So fine, I paid for the beers.

Walking home, I realized that I paid Proprietor B from the pile of bills that Proprietor A left me as change, and that I had paid twice for two beers from the same $20. I felt pretty robbed and as a result, haven't been back since. Nor would I go back.

It was a simple service problem which probably would have been handled differently by someone else, and could have ensured my return to the establishment. For want of a couple beers, their future dining income stream from myself and others was lost. It crossed my line.

Yes, this example doesn't take into account the food at the place but it served to prove to me that I had no interest in trying it, no matter how heralded it was or wasn't. I'm not the kind of person that would let Thomas Keller spit in my wife's face or kick my dog as long as the French Laundry was the best food I'd ever experienced in my life. And yet, I expect and understand a certain level of gruffness at places like Jimmy's, and am willing to make the tradeoff, up to a certain point. Service and treatment does matter everywhere, despite claims to the opposite. The question is...where is the line drawn for you?

Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm just easy to please, but I've never had a service experience at a restaurant that was so bad that I vowed never to return.

I draw the line at the management mishandling the issue when it's obviously their fault and they're well aware i.e. food cooked incorrectly, brought to their attention and ignored. Too many other places to go where at least besides the requested food, justice is served.

I fed the flames a bit in the TAC thread because this happened to me @ a well regarded place and I was wondering how others felt. I also feel that price point does come into play. I don't expect the world for $30, but for $250, it better be damn wonderful all around. Too expensive to give another try to (which I did) and have fail again (which it did). I just won't go back and my friends know not to get me on that subject as I take any opportunity to tell the saga.

I also feel this question is something that works in theory ("I don't care if I'm insulted as long as the food is good"), but when you're actually paying for it, you may think twice. Particularly on a high ticket cost, actually pulling that money out of your pocket, as opposed to thinking how you'd respond. Taking it from the hypothetical to the real may make you feel a bit differently. Lots of analogies to be had here.

I'm the first to admit I'm hypersensitive to the inner workings of restaurants, to the point that certain seemingly innocuous missteps become deal breakers to me. I'm from the Danny Meyer old school of restauranteurs. Knowing full well that it's a people business and mistakes will inevitably occur, it's not so much about the mistake, it's how you respond to it. In his words, "a mistake is a way to write your own ending". Turn it around by being gracious and error on the generous.

The root of the word restaurant derives from the French verb "restaurer", meaning to restore. They're not called "antagoraunts" although clearly some should be.

I'm comfortable with excluding a few places I feel don't live up to my principles. Some places will never get another dime of my money or a kind word from me and I'm fine with that.

Absolutely price comes into play, for two reasons. One, at $250 you are paying for an objectively higher level of service than at $30 or less. So if service is genuinely bad, not just not as good as it could be but offensive, then they've fallen a lot farther to reach that point than a neighborhood Thai joint would.

Second, look at a place like TAC, where the ratio of cuisine to price is so insanely favorable. I believe that, absolutely and objectively; TAC has better, finer, more artful food for $9 than 90+% of the places charging $30 a plate. So the service would have to be insanely bad (possibly involving actual felonies) to completely counteract that. (I hasten to add all this is hypothetical; I've generally had good service at TAC.)

I won't put with ANYTHING at a place I love, but I certainly cut them slack. I had a couple of bad experiences at Burt's, of the sort people talk about, getting grief at 4:30 (!) on a Saturday for not having called ahead, but what that taught me is not to slam the door on Burt's but to only go there when the circumstances are favorable, ie, when someone has arranged an event there and so Burt and Sharon will be friendly and welcoming, not stressed out. Should I have to adjust my behavior to the restaurateur's like that? Perhaps not, in a perfect world, but living in the vale of sorrow and tears that we do, it seems a small enough thing to enjoy a fine pizza. If it's too much for you, then don't do it.

Antagoraunt! I like that. I've definitely eaten at a few in my time.

It's not always about price and food quality alone. For most I'd imagine, perceived value and vibe/attitude rightfully come into play and affect how we feel about a place. While certain experiences tend to detract but are forgivable by those of us rationalizing on the receiving end, others may not. We all do it to a certain extent but most people don't like feeling chumped or unheard.

In those relatively rare instances, I have no problem saying enough, no more. Food or dining that boarders masochism is just not what I choose to support.

The other side of this argument is the "sacred cow" bit. I try to post honestly about wherever I eat, board favorite or not (though I suppose I've held back when I just wasn't that impressed, which is something else.) If someone posts a negative about the service/atmosphere to post about it, it generally doesn't change my impression of a place and I might say so. This is not to defend the place, just to reiterate that there are some things that come with the package at that particular place that might not be for everyone. I do think it's useful to hear these experiences to help differentiate between places I'm better off visiting on my own, and places where non-foodies (or my tolerant semi-foodie family) will enjoy themselves.

I had written earlier in a post that got lost: I consider value when I'm thinking about a restaurant: after a certain point, the cost of the food decreases in proportion to the cost of service, plating and atmosphere. Though I am admittedly biased against more formal places, if that's what I'm paying for, it ought to be there - and if it's a higher price point, the food had damn well better be really good, considering so much good food is out there for so little money (and how little I care about atmosphere and service.)

Yet another piece of this, especially with places that are written about a lot, is reading up and finding out what you have to do to avoid a bad experience. I'm aware that many people - justifiably - feel it's silly to change their behavior to get a good experience anywhere in the service industry; but for good food, especially for good food that I can learn something from, I'm willing to do that.

PS. Thanks, whiskey - this will be useful thread to refer to.

jesteinf wrote:Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm just easy to please, but I've never had a service experience at a restaurant that was so bad that I vowed never to return.

Seriously? I can think of 4 different places in Chicago off the top of my head that I can recognize as having treated us so poorly that I'll never return. I can think of about 12 or so different places that make my mouth water and make me wish I still lived in Chicago. That said, I'm different than most of the board- great food coupled with terrible service will make me never return someplace.

jpschust wrote:

jesteinf wrote:Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm just easy to please, but I've never had a service experience at a restaurant that was so bad that I vowed never to return.

Seriously? I can think of 4 different places in Chicago off the top of my head that I can recognize as having treated us so poorly that I'll never return. I can think of about 12 or so different places that make my mouth water and make me wish I still lived in Chicago. That said, I'm different than most of the board- great food coupled with terrible service will make me never return someplace.

Yeah, seriously. Probably the worst service I've had was at Takashi (given a hard time about showing up late even though there was a snow storm and we called ahead, server somewhat impatient about taking our order, etc), but I'd still give it another shot. I honestly can't think of any example where we were treated "poorly". What are some examples of your being treated poorly?

Mirai is probably the only restaurant I have been to that I will never revisit. I went in there with a group of 8 persons. We spent more than $700 on food and alcohol and when I offered a $25 restaurant.com gift certificate the waitress said that they don't participate in that program anymore and wouldn't accept it.

I understand that the certificate had expired, but we asked if they'd make an exception, especially given the amount of money we were spending. The answer was still "no." I then politely asked if we could speak to the manager about the situation . . . our waitress disappeared, then returned a few minutes later to tell us that the manager was too busy to come over. Food was great, service was fine up until that issue . . . but I will never return. As a group, we were all stunned . . . and the amazing thing is that I was only trying to get rid of the $25 certificate which I purchased . . . it wasn't going to make a noticeable dent in the check. But I felt so unappreciated that I would rather not return and give them my $$$.

When I first moved to Chicago, we went to the Stefani's on Fullerton before a movie at Facets, I think.

I tried to order this dish I'd heard about in Chicago, chicken Vesuvio.

"It takes 20 minutes."
"That's okay, we have time."
"IT TAKES 20 MINUTES."

Even innocent, naive me-circa-1988 got that the guy was eager to see us gone quickly so he could turn the table at least once or twice more that night, hopefully for someone older and, presumably, a better tipper.

I didn't make a resolution never to eat there again. But I've never eaten there again. (I believe it's long gone, but there are other Stefani's, of course.)* Too many other fish in the sea, who needs them? It's not so much a matter of vowing vengeance, as simply checking a place off the list of future possibilities. That can happen for either food or service reasons (though far more the former**, I'm sure). I'm not out to get them-- they just don't exist any more, at that point.

* Oops, looks like Riva is one of theirs, and I eat there once a year, after taking my kids to the Winter Wonderfest at Navy Pier. Okay, so they got three or four meals out of me in the subsequent 20 years, thanks to treating me like a schmuck from Kansas the first time.

** Just noticed I said service was the more important, I meant food. Obviously I write off food for being uninteresting more often than service for being a dealbreaker.

Maybe I'm becoming a curmudgeon in my old age, but I think there are far too many people in the restaurant business who haven't gotten the memo they're in a service business and if they're not willing to please their customers then find some other line of work. I'll take occasional sullenness from a cashier at Burger King, but that's as far as it goes. Eye contact. Smiles. Tone of voice. They're rapidly becoming lost arts, and it's a damn shame. Yeah, you can take it a bit too far as in the Applebee's "hi guys, I'm going to kneel or sit at your table so we're at eye level and I'm going to act like I'm your new BFF" style of service, but attentiveness really does cover up a multitude of culinary sins (case in point, the half-dozen Wisconsin supper clubs in the northwoods we were at this holiday were all bustling, and their menus and preparations were all interchangeable.)

And I agree with Mike, it's a cardinal sin to make someone feel they matter less to the server than another table with presumably better tippers or more alcohol being consumed. Although years ago in Indianapolis (restaurant name escapes me) we found ourselves being ignored with our iced teas while the table with the drinkers got all the service. This was the one time I tried the ol' "leave a nickel for the tip" routine, thinking that would put her in her place. As we walked to our car in the parking lot, the server actually ran out the door and up to us, holding out the nickel and shouting "hey, sir, you forgot your five cents!" I think I stood there in shock as she gave us the nickel back, and I've never tried that again (preferring to say something to the manager as I leave.)
>>Brent

You're not in Kansas anymore.

No one needs to encourage bad food or behaviour by supporting it.

jesteinf wrote:

jpschust wrote:

jesteinf wrote:Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm just easy to please, but I've never had a service experience at a restaurant that was so bad that I vowed never to return.

Seriously? I can think of 4 different places in Chicago off the top of my head that I can recognize as having treated us so poorly that I'll never return. I can think of about 12 or so different places that make my mouth water and make me wish I still lived in Chicago. That said, I'm different than most of the board- great food coupled with terrible service will make me never return someplace.

Yeah, seriously. Probably the worst service I've had was at Takashi (given a hard time about showing up late even though there was a snow storm and we called ahead, server somewhat impatient about taking our order, etc), but I'd still give it another shot. I honestly can't think of any example where we were treated "poorly". What are some examples of your being treated poorly?

If you go back to the Naha thread you'll see a LONG description of our crappy service.

bad food gets a place on my DNR(do not return) list alot quicker than questionable service.

If the food is really good and unique, I can overlook some service issues(other than an empty drink - unacceptable). Grumpy owners of small mom & pop joints rub me the wrong way as well(no one forced these people to open a restaurant, so there is no reason to act like crab asses other than their own issues), but it is not necessarily a deal killer.

With that said if any restaurant took crayons away from my daughter, as reported in another thread, I would never return, and walk out.

jpschust wrote:If you go back to the Naha thread you'll see a LONG description of our crappy service.

The Naha example brings up an interesting point.

Naha is widely considered to be a pretty solid restaurant both in terms of food and service (goofy menu quotation marks notwithstanding). What you experienced obviously shouldn't happen at a restaurant of Naha's level, so you were justifiably upset. Now, the question is, was this a one-off occurrence (bad server, off night for the restaurant, poor communication among the staff) or some other more serious structural problem (bad training and bad management leads to bad service that isn't likely to change anytime soon)? What you experienced at Naha probably falls into the first category. The restaurant made a public apology and also let us all know that the specific issue was addressed in a pre-service meeting with the staff.

If you experience a one-off service issue that would ordinarily be bad to the point where you vow to never return to a restaurant, would you reconsider based on some combination of the restaurant's reputation and subsequent actions taken by the restaurant to make things right? I would imagine the answer to this question would dictate how likely a person is to swear off a restaurant based on service.

jesteinf wrote:

jpschust wrote:If you go back to the Naha thread you'll see a LONG description of our crappy service.

The Naha example brings up an interesting point.

Naha is widely considered to be a pretty solid restaurant both in terms of food and service (goofy menu quotation marks notwithstanding). What you experienced obviously shouldn't happen at a restaurant of Naha's level, so you were justifiably upset. Now, the question is, was this a one-off occurrence (bad server, off night for the restaurant, poor communication among the staff) or some other more serious structural problem (bad training and bad management leads to bad service that isn't likely to change anytime soon)? What you experienced at Naha probably falls into the first category. The restaurant made a public apology and also let us all know that the specific issue was addressed in a pre-service meeting with the staff.

If you experience a one-off service issue that would ordinarily be bad to the point where you vow to never return to a restaurant, would you reconsider based on some combination of the restaurant's reputation and subsequent actions taken by the restaurant to make things right? I would imagine the answer to this question would dictate how likely a person is to swear off a restaurant based on service.

I think you hit the nail on the head. This goes back to the price point issue- at Naha's price point I expect things to be perfect from start to finish and an abysmal experience like this will lead me to never return. That said, if you want a few other examples, Everest in Chicago, Minibar in Washington, DC, the restaurant where L20 is now (I can't think of their name off the top of my head))

I've got a little bit different angle on this topic in that, most restaurants I visit, I expect never to return to. It's not so much that bad experiences make me vow never to go back, I just don't usually return unless it's really good. And if it's a pricey place, even say $30-50pp--there are just so many places at that price point that I've got to be really taken with a place to go back instead of continuing to search for the few that are most compelling.

If visit number one is less than very good, I'm unlikely to return, but not really in an "I'll never go back there!" sort of way. If the food/service snafu is after the first visit, then in all likelihood, I've got one "very good" experience in the bank, and I'm hard-pressed to think of an example where a single bad visit has outweighed the value of an excellent visit that begat a return trip in the first place. Maybe that's a little confusing, but I am also perplexed at those who write off a place after a stretch of regular patronage based on a single negative experience.

I have only had horrible service once, at Mia Francesca's back in 2004. It was a weekend (yes I know they are busy), but we had reservations for 6, for a birthday which they were aware of, and kept telling us "It will be a few minutes." This continued for 45 minutes. No apologies, no comped drinks while we waited, just complete indifference.

We eventually called over to (Was it Pepper Cannister - RIP - around the corner) and were seated immediately.

My nemesis

Jazzfood wrote:My nemesis

Just won a $10 bet with myself.

Since you're up $10. you can buy me a drink to help ease the pain of taking the hook out of my mouth.

Until I've tried every restaurant in Chicago, I won't go back to a place where I've gotten bad service. Thankfully, it doesn't happen all that often.

We don't go to a whole lot of high end places, I indeed think my experiences are linked directly to certain expectations at a given price/reputation/occasion point.

My husband and i once went to a sushi place not far from our house in the northern burbs, we went after a movie. We ordered a considerable amount of sushi cuz we were really hungry. We asked a few questions about some of the rolls IIRC and ordered something that was described on the menu as having sesame seeds WITHOUT the seeds (diverticulitis issue at the time).

When the rolls came out, other than the one that was specifically requested without the seeds, ALL had sesame seeds. We asked to see the menu and not one of the descriptions of these rolls included the seeds. The waitress was totally ineffectual and we asked to speak to the manager. Really don't recall exactly what we wanted at the time, just some acknowledgement, an offer to remake, dont remember.

Anyway, the owner/manager was so unbelievably rude to us, challenging us that she'd been in the sushi biz for years and such &such ALWAYS has sesame seed, essentially she not only ignored our situation but actually fanned the flames by implying we were idiots. Never came back to see if we were managing ok with the unwanted rolls. And when we turned in our movie tickets for the free coconut ice cream or whatever it was, they refused to provide it since we hadn't ordered entrees. Even t hough our sushi bill was much higher than entrees would have been. And we were clearly unhappy customers.

We never returned AND I will confess to telling pretty much everyone we knew about our experience there and encouraging them to avoid the place as well. Maybe we went too far, but that restaurant did eventually close. LOL

That's my signature example.

For me, it's independent of price point. Respect is respect. I treat others with it, and when it's not reciprocated, I feel violated. Just as others may not be able to understand why I wouldn't tolerate being violated for the sake of some killer biscuits (or whatever--I'm just picking that example out of the air), I can't understand why they would tolerate being violated just for the sake of killer biscuits. I guess food, much as I love it and want to eat great food when I can, isn't that important to me. Add in the point Jazzfood and teatpuller have made, that there are any number of places one can go in Chicago to get good food and respectful treatment (respect, after all, is the norm, and not the exception, thank goodness), and putting up with mistreatment makes even less sense to me.

riddlemay wrote:For me, it's independent of price point. Respect is respect. I treat others with it, and when it's not reciprocated, I feel violated. Just as others may not be able to understand why I wouldn't tolerate being violated for the sake of some killer biscuits (or whatever--I'm just picking that example out of the air), I can't understand why they would tolerate being violated just for the sake of killer biscuits. I guess food, much as I love it and want to eat great food when I can, isn't that important to me. Add in the point Jazzfood and teatpuller have made, that there are any number of places one can go in Chicago to get good food and respectful treatment (respect, after all, is the norm, and not the exception, thank goodness), and putting up with mistreatment makes even less sense to me.

But do you classify mistreatment and errors similarly? For purposes of this discussion, I don't.

=R=

No, if someone's being genuinely offensive, sheesh, they should be taken out and horsewhipped, or at least mocked back to their face.

If they're inept, well, then there's a sliding scale based on price.

It's interesting to note that I went back to both of the places I just linked above, though. Scylla, I went back and had a perfectly okay time with a non-attitudinous server, Hopleaf, well, I'm not going to the bar ever again but I have no beef with the restaurant part.

Mistakes are not necessarily mistreatment, obviously. A pleasant disposition can make up for a lot of mistakes.

Mike G wrote:It's interesting to note that I went back to both of the places I just linked above, though. Scylla, I went back and had a perfectly okay time with a non-attitudinous server, Hopleaf, well, I'm not going to the bar ever again but I have no beef with the restaurant part.

I think I'm generally pretty forgiving unless the price point is seriously off. I do have a few pet peeves though that annoy me almost to the point of offense. The main one, to which anyone who's dined with me one-on-one can attest, is that I cannot stand, when dining with only one other person who happens to be a man, the waitperson gives the check incontrovertibly not to me. That is my hot button. I know I'm in the minority, and it makes me sound like a curmudgeonista, but I consider it disrespectful service. I haven't made it a deal breaker, but I keep a running mental list of establishments at which I have had that experience.

In all of Chicago, Hopleaf is my test. (Actually, if I remember correctly, my inner conflict with Hopleaf might have been what compelled me to post on LTH for the first time. I was looking for alternatives.) In my book, Hopleaf is perhaps the most consistent restaurant in our fine city for the attitudinousness of the restaurant waitstaff (have no problem with the bar area). It galls me to no end. I definitely go there less than I would if I thought they cared an iota about my business, but I have not been able to give it up completely. Sometimes I just need their food, and the value makes it just easy enough to go back. Arrrgh. I will reach a perfect state of peace and enlightenment when I can give up those damn frites.

I can't think of too many occasions of having such a terribile time of the food or service that I say that I'll never go back, with any vehemence. More often it's something like, "They took my favorite items off the menu, I don't see the point in coming back" (happens more often than I can count in chain restos, but I'm eating at those less often anyway), or "Meh. Let's not eat here again."

There was one case where it wasn't the staff or the food, but a customer that made me not want to come back. It was back in the stone ages when they still allowed smoking in restaurants, and the division between smoking and non smoking was an imaginary line drawn between tables. I ended up with my back to a big-hair deb who talked loudly all evening with a cig held over her left shoulder for quick access to lips, resulting in a cloud floating around her and my head.

I asked politely, "Could you hold your cigarette somewhere else please?" (really, I was polite), and was told, "I can't help where the smoke goes!" (The staff wasn't able to move us either -- they were full up). For some reason my wife thinks that spitting on such people is inappropriate, but sometimes I'm certain that I can't help where my expectoration goes. I was able to control it in that instance, but it was a near thing.

Nevertheless, I haven't been back there since... but I wasn't impressed by the menu either (better Mex food could be had within the same radius to home).

teatpuller wrote:Mistakes are not necessarily mistreatment, obviously. A pleasant disposition can make up for a lot of mistakes.

Well, I'm not so sure it's obvious. In the one of original posts, which spurred this thread, I think the line between errors and mistreatment is subjective and blurry, to say the least. I suppose it comes down to perception but one diner's mistreatment is another's regrettable (and easily forgettable/forgivable) mistake.

=R=