Should pizza places disclose the fact that they use lard?

Here's honesty: I actually couldn't care less what anyone's answer is to this question, but I'm hoping that people who care to debate it will get out of the Pizza Rustica thread.

Kennyz wrote:Here's honesty: I actually couldn't care less what anyone's answer is to this question, but I'm hoping that people who care to debate it will get out of the Pizza Rustica thread.

You'd be surprised how many vegetarians are shocked when I tell them about refried beans containing lard. "But it's just beans!" they say. "Yeah, beans fried in lard".

Like Kenny said, if you have a restriction that matters to you, ask. I semi-regularly eat with a guy with a serious dairy allergy. He always asks, even if he's ordering a bowl of chicken broth.

eatchicago wrote:Like Kenny said, if you have a restriction that matters to you, ask. I semi-regularly eat with a guy with a serious dairy allergy. He always asks, even if he's ordering a bowl of chicken broth.

What Michael said. If a dietary restriction is important to you, don't assume anything -- always ask. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that a salad had a little bacon fat in the vinaigrette, or that a mayonnaise is made with a little bacon fat, or that some vegetables were otherwise cooked with pork. If I don't want to eat pork, or don't want to eat meat, or have a food allergy it's my responsibility to make sure what I'm about to put in my mouth meets my requirements, and it's the restaurant's responsibility to either answer my questions honestly or tell me they don't want my business.

spinynorman99 wrote:As for using examples of hot dog places cooking fires in lard or grilling veggie burgers on the same grill, that's a caveat emptor situation. You EXPECT contamination and assume the risk. But if, for example, you went out for a salad and discovered that the vinaigrette used beef fat -- that's not within usual expectations.

That's not quite the example I gave. Let's take a place like Polk & Western Hot Dogs. All of their hot dogs and polish sausages are steamed, and no other item on the menu is likely to ever be deep fried (italian beef, tamales, chili mostly) except the french fries, which are cooked in vegetable oil. You can look at the menu and the operation and reasonably assume that the oil the fries are cooked in has never been tainted with meat.

But no, it has, because P&W will, on request, deep fry the polish sausages. They don't tell you they'll do this, and it might take you a dozen visits before you see someone else request it, but it happens frequently enough that their oil is very likely to have trace amounts of beef in it at any given point. I don't think 99% of people would expect contamination on visiting it once. If you don't want meat in your food, don't assume anything. Common sense.

Another Jewish pork fan here, and I've faced this question with a couple Jewish friends of mine who won't eat pork . . . but my feeling is that if you have any food restrictions, it is your obligation to let the restaurant know of your restrictions. You just never know exactly what ingredients restaurants use so if it matters, speak up or face the consequences.

I just came back from dinner at Irazu and noticed that when one of my dining companions ordered the potato tacos and was offered the option of mole sauce, the waiter offered up that the mole sauce had chicken stock in it. The dining companion wasn't a vegetarian (just happened to be ordering one of the veggie entrees), but it was nice of the waiter to mention it just in case.

I'm not saying that restaurants should have to, I'm simply saying that when meat products are in unexpected places, it's certainly nice that they do disclose it.

-Dan

Speaking up of warning (and over-warning): The friendly staff at Chipotle always warn me when I get a burrito (sue me) with carnitas and pinto beans that the pinto beans have bacon in them. I don't really understand why they're warning me that I'll get extra pork on my pork, so I usually just say "that's why I want them."

gleam wrote:extra pork on my pork

Mmm...

-Dan

dansch wrote:I just came back from dinner at Irazu and noticed that when one of my dining companions ordered the potato tacos and was offered the option of mole sauce, the waiter offered up that the mole sauce had chicken stock in it. The dining companion wasn't a vegetarian (just happened to be ordering one of the veggie entrees), but it was nice of the waiter to mention it just in case.

I'm not saying that restaurants should have to, I'm simply saying that when meat products are in unexpected places, it's certainly nice that they do disclose it.

Sure, it's nice. I don't think you'll find much argument there. If someone is ordering an otherwise vegetarian dish, it's a nice thing to do to point out a meat ingredient that might not be obvious. But I won't fault a restaurant for not doing it.

This is another lesson I've taught my vegetarian friends: If there's a sauce, there's a good chance there's some kind of stock involved. Ask.

"This is another lesson I've taught my vegetarian friends: If there's a sauce, there's a good chance there's some kind of stock involved. Ask."

"Ask" is always appropriate, however, my point was that there are just some areas where most people wouldn't consider asking, pizza being one. If you randomly polled most vegetarians (I am not one, but have several in my family and numerous friends who are) pizza would be a relatively safe product to order. As far as I'm aware Pizza Rustica is the only place that uses lard in their crust -- and frankly, there's no way anyone would have known were it not for the thread on its lardy goodness. So I'll alert my non-lardy friends to add to the "ask" category. I just thought that a restaurant might want to alert people when they're non-conformist in their food prep.

One thing I've never understood: don't most vegetarians know that unless "animal rennet free" is explicitly stated, cheese is not vegetarian? This would make most pizza problematic.

One thing I've never understood: don't most vegetarians know that unless "animal rennet free" is explicitly stated, cheese is not vegetarian? This would make most pizza problematic.

There are different types of vegetarians. Some are OK with milk products, some also with eggs.

rickster wrote:

One thing I've never understood: don't most vegetarians know that unless "animal rennet free" is explicitly stated, cheese is not vegetarian? This would make most pizza problematic.

There are different types of vegetarians. Some are OK with milk products, some also with eggs.

Avoiding dairy or eggs because they're by-products of animals is not the issue raised here. Mhays is not talking about animal by-products (if you're not ok with those things, you're a vegan), she's talking about a part of an animal, rennet, that exists in many cheeses. It's an enzyme coagulant that is taken from the animals stomach. A vegetarian that does not want to consume any part of an animal would not want to consume rennet.

Of the vegetarians that I know, all of them know about rennet and most of them ignore it. They don't want to stop eating cheese and feel that it's impractical for them to totally go rennet-free without basically becoming vegan while eating out. Since eating cheese made with rennet in no way gives them the sensation of eating meat, they ignore it.

One thing I've never understood: don't most vegetarians know that unless "animal rennet free" is explicitly stated, cheese is not vegetarian? This would make most pizza problematic.

Mozzarella (fresh and otherwise) and softer domestic cheeses are not typically animal rennet (never say "never") but it's rare. Animal-sourced rennet is more prevalent in imported cheeses and cheddars. Some vegetarians take issue with it, for others because it's basically just a chemical extract by the time it gets to them, it's not a big issue. If any cultural or subcultural belief system is unified and/or consistent, please let me know. I've found that it religion and religion-like food cultures, everything operates on a continuum.

A large number of pizzas are also made with parmesan cheese, which is made using rennet, and is usually made using animal rennet.

Kennyz wrote:Should pizza places disclose the fact that they use lard?

No. They should disclose if they DON"T use lard.

SSDD

My mom is a strict vegetarian from birth and you'd be surprised at how many places use beef or chicken stock in their vegetable soup. The rule of thumb is ask, ask, ask. Unfortunately, meat by-products turn up in many supposed vegetarian items. Before vegetarianism started taking off in this country in a mainstream way, I remember her telling the waiter that she's a vegetarian and the response would be to suggest a fish item. People are much more educated about vegetarianism nowadays but there is still a long way to go.

spinynorman99 wrote:

One thing I've never understood: don't most vegetarians know that unless "animal rennet free" is explicitly stated, cheese is not vegetarian? This would make most pizza problematic.

Mozzarella (fresh and otherwise) and softer domestic cheeses are not typically animal rennet (never say "never") but it's rare. Animal-sourced rennet is more prevalent in imported cheeses and cheddars. Some vegetarians take issue with it, for others because it's basically just a chemical extract by the time it gets to them, it's not a big issue. If any cultural or subcultural belief system is unified and/or consistent, please let me know. I've found that it religion and religion-like food cultures, everything operates on a continuum.

I guess my point is that, while I find the distinction between rennet and lard a bit dubious, it's not my distinction - but if you have a dietary restriction, you either assume things to be what they visually appear or you don't, in which case you should probably not assume any food prepared outside of your sight is "safe." I'd also agree that you need to ask about "vegetable soup," although I'd agree that "vegetarian vegetable" by definition, should require no further questioning.

I've also seen many cheese pizzas prepared with cheddar or cheddar variants "four-cheese" is the most common vegetarian option - usually with Parmesan or sometimes Cheddar.

Which leads me to say "no" to the question posed in the OP. Caveat emptor. However, if you run a restaurant, it should be on you to answer accurately if somebody says "I'm a vegetarian, are there any animal products in your _______?"

Even asking doesn't work. When asked "is there any meat in this soup, or meat products, or meat stock?" the waiter says "no" - dish comes with sausage chunks.

leek wrote:Even asking doesn't work. When asked "is there any meat in this soup, or meat products, or meat stock?" the waiter says "no" - dish comes with sausage chunks.

Right - then it would be on the restaurant. I'm surprised, considering all the various dietary restrictions there are in this metropolis, especially since so many involve public health, that some kind of training about ingredient disclosure isn't required with a sanitation certificate.

So, may I clarify: I don't think a restaurant should have to disclose anything up front, other than what's legally required of them (e.g. their inspection status, their alcohol policy, etc.) unless a customer asks a specific question. Then, they should either answer accurately or find someone who is able to answer accurately.

I also think that if you've got a dish description in your menu, the dish should contain what's listed (or the waiter should disclose that changes have been made before it's ordered,) though it should also be assumed that a menu description is not a full ingredients list.

eatchicago wrote:Of the vegetarians that I know, all of them know about rennet and most of them ignore it. They don't want to stop eating cheese and feel that it's impractical for them to totally go rennet-free without basically becoming vegan while eating out. Since eating cheese made with rennet in no way gives them the sensation of eating meat, they ignore it.

Fyi, there are some lovely vegetarian rennet or microbial rennet based cheeses available.. just requires some label reading. Trader Joe has a good selection. In a restaurant setting, I would just assume that the cheese has animal rennet in it unless it specifically states otherwise.
Separately, what's in the norm in some food cultures is not the norm in other food cultures, ie. lard in dough issue. The only way to know what is truly in your food is to prepare it yourself at home.

na wrote:

eatchicago wrote:Of the vegetarians that I know, all of them know about rennet and most of them ignore it. They don't want to stop eating cheese and feel that it's impractical for them to totally go rennet-free without basically becoming vegan while eating out. Since eating cheese made with rennet in no way gives them the sensation of eating meat, they ignore it.

Fyi, there are some lovely vegetarian rennet or microbial rennet based cheeses available.. just requires some label reading. Trader Joe has a good selection. In a restaurant setting, I would just assume that the cheese has animal rennet in it unless it specifically states otherwise.

Yes, and at home, this is the stuff that the vegetarians that I know specifically go for. When out, they just don't worry about it.

For me, this is a really interesting thread because it brings up a myriad of issues and affects people that I’m close to.
Knowing if lard is in the dough or if there is beef stock in the vegetable soup is important to people for different reasons whether it be for cultural, religious, lifestyle, or even just taste reasons.
I am not a vegetarian but lard in my dough makes me want to vomit. I don’t like the taste and I won’t eat it. I’ve driven to three different stores until I find pie crusts that don’t contain lard. Dominick’s brand pie crusts changed from vegetable oil to lard. On the other hand, I could care less if there is animal rennet in my cheese. I love all kinds of cheese.
I eat out with vegetarians frequently, so I am used to the types of issues that they have to deal with.
Getting back to the original question, it’s hard to say if a list of ingredients in the dough should be provided by the restaurant for people of various dietary restrictions such as vegetarian, vegan, kosher, halal, etc…Asking doesn’t always provide clear answers either.

There are so many different cultures and culinary customs on this planet and so many different dishes and recipes from each, too (not to mention the uncountable combinations between them). Into that already gigantic range of items, go a nearly infinite quantity of ingredients. So, it seems a lot more efficient for those who have concerns about given ingredients to ask about them, rather than have a provider of a given food try to warn the consumer about every possible conflict or issue with that food.

Sure, right now we're just talking about whether there's lard in pizza dough. To some of us, it may seem obvious that such a detail that should be disclosed to diners but as a restaurateur, if you don't know that, you don't know that. And since 'obvious' is such a subjective thing, it doesn't seem unreasonable to put the responsiblity on the person doing the eating. That way, there can be no confusion, and the preparer of the food doesn't have to learn about and anticipate everyone else's requirements and restrictions. He or she only has to worry about every other aspect of running a successful establishment.

=R=

eatchicago wrote:

dansch wrote:I'm not saying that restaurants should have to, I'm simply saying that when meat products are in unexpected places, it's certainly nice that they do disclose it.

Sure, it's nice. I don't think you'll find much argument there. If someone is ordering an otherwise vegetarian dish, it's a nice thing to do to point out a meat ingredient that might not be obvious. But I won't fault a restaurant for not doing it.

While I agree with the first part of this reply, I'd differ from the last sentence in that I think the "nice" issue is a big issue and not a trivial one. Restaurants that are not nice are not restaurants I care to frequent. While restaurants may have no "obligation" to point out ingredients that a reasonable person would not expect to find, and while a policy of "eater-beware" may always be prudent, niceness (of the sort that would cause a restaurant to proactively disclose an unexpected ingredient) is a quality I appreciate in a restaurant, and non-niceness is a reason I would shun one.

headcase wrote:

Kennyz wrote:Should pizza places disclose the fact that they use lard?

No. They should disclose if they DON"T use lard.

SSDD

Although most pizza doughs I use do not use lard (actually, all the pizza doughs I make do not contain lard--I generally think of lard only for stuff like flour tortillas, tamales, and fluffy biscuit-type doughs and pastries), I do remember one Mexican restaurant on the Upper West Side of Manhattan that proudly proclaimed they don't use lard, only 100% vegetable oil. Needless to say, I didn't find that a particular selling point for me (and, yes, their food was pretty much bland Americanized Mexican.)

Although most pizza doughs I use do not use lard (actually, all the pizza doughs I make do not contain lard--I generally think of lard only for stuff like flour tortillas, tamales, and fluffy biscuit-type doughs and pastries), I do remember one Mexican restaurant on the Upper West Side of Manhattan that proudly proclaimed they don't use lard, only 100% vegetable oil. Needless to say, I didn't find that a particular selling point for me (and, yes, their food was pretty much bland Americanized Mexican.)

That was pretty much my point. There are some cuisines and dishes in which lard is expected and others where it's just not expected. Lard in pizza dough is a rarity. Even in Italy it's the exception rather than the rule and even then it's a regional preference. Mexican is another matter entirely, lard appears in nearly all their baked goods and many traditional dishes. So, for example, skimming reviews of Rustica on yelp, there are a number of comments about the "butter" crust or the crust being "buttery." I couldn't find a single one where they said "tastes like there's lard in the crust" because that wouldn't even show up on the radar. And there are many Mexican places in Chicago that mention they don't use lard in their menus because it is a selling point. It broadens their appeal to people who avoid lard for any number of reasons.

Well then, to expand my answer, while lard is not a common ingredient in pizza dough, I'm with those that think it's on the customer with dietary restrictions to ask about it. Now, if you advertise your product as being "vegetarian" and it contains lard, that's another thing. That said, if I were running such a restaurant, I would probably disclose the animal fats fact as a courtesy, because I'm used to cooking for folks with vegan or vegetarian restrictions and, like others have said, the lard is a non-obvious ingredient.

As for the no-lard/Mexican thing, of course I know it's a selling point for some people--headcase's post just reminded me of a real-world instance where I've seen his "warning" posted. I used New York as an example, because I've never seen it here in Chicago. I believe such places exist, of course, but I guess I must have self-selected them out.

As for the no-lard/Mexican thing

I'm not making a case either way for the Mexican lard/no lard thing, merely showing the prime example of a cuisine that uses lard in all types of courses, so caveat emptor. However, a great many cuisines (or subsets thereof) don't traditionally use lard. So if, for example, a non-vegetarian Indian restaurant decided to add lard to its dishes for some degree of unctuousness it would be a totally unexpected turn where most patrons would never even consider its use.

Or, hypothetically, if a vegetarian went into The Chicago Diner ("love animals, don't eat them") and were served a soup made from beef stock, would he have a right to be upset? I'd say yes. Should it really be necessary to ask a waiter at The Chicago Diner, "Okay, just to be sure, this product is meatless, right?" I'd say no, it shouldn't be necessary to ask a waiter at The Chicago Diner that. There is such a thing as an implied contract (I'm not talking legally, but in a "social contract" way) that entitles one to assume in a restaurant that has been 100% vegetarian for more than 25 years that the food one is served will be vegetarian. Every single day of our lives we enter into a thousand such unspoken but understood social contracts; without them we'd have no society.

(Just wanted to add that the issue that interests me here is not Pizza Rustica's use of lard, about which I have no opinion, but the bigger question implied by the ongoing discussion.)

The place is an Italian restaurant. The fact that there are pork products in their dough, bread, sauce, or whatever, should not be that surprising.