Newspapers and hypertext--the Trib on secret menus

Maybe this bit about secret menus has been on metromix for a long time...I couldn't find a date. Actually, today's date is part of the URL, so I suppose it's new. Anyway, it's nice to get this info out, but it seems like the Trib is about 15 years behind in terms of Internet functionality. I mean, it's cool to tell people about secret menus, but why not show them as well? Say, here, here, here, or here. Instead, the story cautions:

(Be patient, some of these eateries have a limited amount of translated menus on hand.)

Are they worried about losing readership by directing them off the site--maybe it's just standard Trib policy not to link to other sites? Since some of these have showed up here and on Chowhound--and probably other places--is there an issue of attribution?

My issue isn't "why not mention LTH" (though at least the Reader had the courtesy in print to credit Erik M.), as much as why not provide the obvious service to your customers? I'd really be interested in feedback from Bill Daley, or any other Tribune Co. readers of LTH. I realize there is probably a good degree of separation between the workings of the printed and online services, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks,

Aaron

I agree. Their opaque mention of "Food chat sites" must leave some readers screaming "WHAT FOOD CHAT SITES???" This place sure doesn't come up in the top google search results for "chicago food chat". I don't know if the regulars/mods want this site to be a secret, but perhaps some Search Engine Optimization is in order?

Considering that most of these secret menu translations are really the hard work of one or two people (Erik M. and Foodfirst, along with folks like RST and GWiv in finding the menus), it's wrong to just act as if they're a natural phenomenon which the Tribune discovered sitting out there.

I am less concerned about LTHForum getting a pat on the back for spreading the word about their existence-- though I am all for that, not for any reason other than it brings more swell folks to the site and expands the conversation and knowledge base ever more-- but really, these represent the hard and serious work of individuals who deserve public credit for creating them as surely as an author for a book or a photographer for his pictures.

[This from] a publication [that] gives 3 forks to the nasty 'cue at Hecky's of Chicago? The assessment: "This is good `cue."

Anyway, the secret menu item clearly does not advance the ball for the general eating public, especially given the documented problems folks have had getting the correct translated menu from often inexperienced young staff. It's pointless to have an article like this that doesn't direct readers to the valuable information discussed, and unprofessional not to mention the authors of these resources. This is the food writing equivalent of a 5th grade book report based on a quick look at the Cliffs Notes. It gets a D-.

Plus, it contains misinformation. To wit, the idea that pla chon, or mudfish, is not the same thing as snakehead. Instead, the author tells us,

"whole mudfish (a.k.a. snakefish, a tropical, large-mouthed fish not to be confused with the rapacious northern snakehead)"

Wrong.

In fact, the fish called pla chon or similar (as in plaa chawn thawt ma-muang) is a type of snakehead. The term mudfish seems to come from the practice of coaxing the critters from the mud where they hide during dry periods. There are several varieties of Channidae, some more prized by fishers and chefs than others. (Below, you can see that one of the rarest and most prized in N. Thailand seems to like Florida waters pretty well.) The term seems to have taken hold in Asian markets here, as noted on various state and federal websites where instances of seizing live specimens are documented.

Again (like Al Roker repeating a Chicago cafe owner's folkloric misinformation about platanos being the "male" version of a common sweet banana) the "journalist" publishes an incorrect, yet easily checked and discounted, statement of fact simply because an expert in cooking the thing discussed said so. It took me about 2 minutes to find better information.

In the end, so what if the snakehead is a scourge. At our favorite Thai eateries, I assume that they come frozen, and dead.

All you want to know about Pla Chon fishing in Thailand.

www.carpecarpio.com/snakeheadfishing.html

http://www.dreamlake-fishing.com/fish11.html

http://fisc.er.usgs.gov/Snakehead_circ_1251/index.html

PS, an angler's site points out that one easy way to tell a snakehead from a native bowfin (also sometimes called mudfish for the same reasons) is that snakeheads have an underbite, while bowfins have an overbite.

doesn't credit the translator at all???

http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/dini ... op_hedsh2o

nor does it mention the "Internet food-chat" sites...

By the way, I merged the above comment into the existing thread on this topic.

^^ hah!

thanks! duh! to me!

JeffB wrote:What do you want from a publication with a new-ish food editor who gives 3 forks to the nasty 'cue at Hecky's of Chicago? Her assessment: "This is good `cue."

Normally, I try not to reply to snark but this JeffB comment can't stand unchallenged. Whether he agrees with Carol Mighton Haddix's assessment of Hecky's is not important, he is entitled to his opinion, but he grievously insults this fine food editor, my boss, who has worked at the Chicago Tribune as food editor for 30 years. Carol knows 'cue and knows Chicago. She ain't "new-ish"

billdaley wrote:

JeffB wrote:What do you want from a publication with a new-ish food editor who gives 3 forks to the nasty 'cue at Hecky's of Chicago? Her assessment: "This is good `cue."

Normally, I try not to reply to snark but this JeffB comment can't stand unchallenged. Whether he agrees with Carol Mighton Haddix's assessment of Hecky's is not important, he is entitled to his opinion, but he grievously insults this fine food editor, my boss, who has worked at the Chicago Tribune as food editor for 30 years. Carol knows 'cue and knows Chicago. She ain't "new-ish"

As they say in the South, "Maybe she just don't know no better." I mean, compared to a place like Twin Anchors or Gale Street Inn, the New Hecky's stacks up pretty well. Once she visits a place like Honey 1 or Lem's she'll have a point of reference and recognize Chicago Hecky's for what it is.

Respectfully, I gave an opinion of an opinion. I said nothing "grievous" about any individual. Here's what I meant: I think that the BBQ at Hecky's in Chicago was pretty terrible when I tried it. Apparently, others here have had similar experiences. I was surprised to see it proclaimed in print as "one of the best" , three forks (like, eg, TAC Quick) and great BBQ. Even at its best, I don't feel that Hecky's in Evanston has great or even good 'cue. While the author knows 'cue in your assessment, I respectfully don't see it. Further, I don't see how a brand new chain place on the North Side gets a Cheap Eats review, when Metromix lacks any real information about places such as Lem's and Honey One (though the latter got well-deserved props from John Kass in the tradition of Royko).

More important, to the extent my "snark" bled over from criticizing the opinion of Hecky's to criticizing the person and the professional, I'm sorry.

And you did point out a factual error. Your boss clearly is not a new-ish editor. I should have described your boss as a new-ish cheap eats contributor. I had not seen her as the author of previous cheap eats columns before.

You are entitled to disparage my comment as a "snark," as you know. I wouldn't want it any other way. I do hope that you will take my comments in this forum in their entirety and understand that this is not a journalistic enterprise, but a voluntary forum. Clearly, I could use a good editor from time to time.

Snarks aside, I sincerely think that the Tribune can and should do better in its food writing. Peer papers, and even more regional publication (The St. Pete Times is my favorite example) do much more, in my opinion. Also, I admire you for sticking up for someone whom you know and respect.

I'd also be interested in what you think about the real topic of this string --why no credit goes to the "secret menu" translators and no link or other information regarding the site(s) mined by the writer for the column is mentioned.

I will be editing my prior post to address the problems on which we agree. Thanks.

Thanks for writing, JeffB.
Carol Haddix has been writing cheap eats since at least 1995, when Good Eating began, so she is not a newbie in that assignment, either.
I am not troubled by your comments about the Good Eating section. I thank you for voicing them. Whether the comments are positive or negative, i think the staff as a whole relishes reader reaction. I hope you also filled out the Good Eating survey that's now on-line at the Tribune web site. I think these surveys will be very important as the editors determine the future direction of the section.
As to the question of secret menus as such and whether Metromix overstepped bounds in writing about it, I think that's something the Metromix folks need to respond to...
All I can tell you is that I try to always credit sources when I write a story. At the Trib, my editors want us to do that. But not all papers and all editors feel that way....
Another thing I have found interesting over the years is that no one person or forum or book or tv show has a monopoly on good story ideas. Good stories are everywhere, you just have to keep your eyes open and look. That said, sometimes people have the same idea at the same time and that's where the potential for bruising egos come in. And that's when people start pointing fingers about who thought up what and when. I feel that if I get a story from LTHforum or eGullet or Chowhound, I will credit it - especially since I'll probably be quoting from that source. But if eGullet, say, just coincidently has a similar story at the same time as I do I won't give credit where it isn't due. Does that make sense?
As for being snarky on e-forums; I really don't think that's necessary. It clouds the msg the writer is trying to make, leaving others needlessly angry or annoyed. But people do it; I sometimes wonder if it's because we in the media are in their homes every day and we've become sort of like family, meaning people can say whatever they want in whatever tone they choose.

Bill Daley

billdaley wrote:As to the question of secret menus as such and whether Metromix overstepped bounds in writing about it, I think that's something the Metromix folks need to respond to...

Bill, thanks for writing, and for participating here at LTH Forum.

Could you explain what the relationship is between Metromix and the regular sections of the Tribune? I think you are getting comments directed at you about the lack of attribution because we outsiders don't know how to engage "the Metromix folks." Perhaps you could pass along the concerns expressed here to your colleagues in the Metromix department.

(And, if you do talk to Metromix, can you encourage them to periodically check that places they list are actually still in business? Mannino's, for example, (741 S. Western) is not only out of business but its successor in that same location has been out of business for more than a year...)

"Could you explain what the relationship is between Metromix and the regular sections of the Tribune? I think you are getting comments directed at you about the lack of attribution because we outsiders don't know how to engage "the Metromix folks." Perhaps you could pass along the concerns expressed here to your colleagues in the Metromix department."

Bill: Well, I have passed along the concerns....but, you know, you folks can do the same. Send them an e-mail. I"m sure there's a contact point on the Metromix website.
As for Metromix's relationship with Tribune, I've been with this company less than a year (and I have to tell you I've had the best time here) and I may screw this up...but this is how I understand it. Metromix is an on-line arm of the Tribune, a subsidiary so to speak with its own capacity to come up with original material.

"And, if you do talk to Metromix, can you encourage them to periodically check that places they list are actually still in business? Mannino's, for example, (741 S. Western) is not only out of business but its successor in that same location has been out of business for more than a year...)

Bill: I do talk to Metromix's Chris LaMorte, the dining producer. I will forward this closing to him. And thanks for letting us know. I have to tell you with 1000's of listings on the server it's hard to weed out those that are gone.

Amata wrote:(And, if you do talk to Metromix, can you encourage them to periodically check that places they list are actually still in business?

Veering rather off-topic ...

I have the same comment about Reader listings. They're still showing Ed's Japanese Steak House, which was replaced by the excellent, overlooked Papillion at least two or three years ago.

I have the same comment about Reader listings. They're still showing Ed's Japanese Steak House, which was replaced by the excellent, overlooked Papillion at least two or three years ago.

Well, let 'em know!!! I used to do some restaurant listing work in San Francisco, it is impossible to catch every single restaurant closing and opening. That's why I was always grateful to hear from eagle-eyed readers....so, don't be shy or sit and stew. Pick up the phone or e-mail -- they'll appreciate it.[/quote]

Hi Bill,

Maybe you could direct everyone to the correct e-mail --- we're not lazy -- we just want to direct it to the correct location.

Thanks for your feedback.

Regards,

Bill, this is not at all directed at you personally, just continuing the sub-topic here:

I think it would be worth while for the Reader and Metromix and any other online resource to hire someone -- call him/her a "fact-checker", let's say -- whose job is just to go through calling every listing and verifying the facts. When they get to the end of the thousands of listings, start all over again. (Kind of like painting the Golden Gate Bridge...) I've had enough disappointing experiences -- not just finding out that a promising-sounding place in an unfamiliar neighborhood is actually closed, but also, with still open places, that the hours listed in Metromix are no longer accurate -- that I've cut back on how much I use Metromix as a resource. And surely the only way Metromix can succeed is to maintain its reputation as a RELIABLE source of information.

But if Metromix instead wants to rely on its readership to do its updating work for it, they should at least make it easy by adding a prominent link on each "detail page" inviting readers to correct errors. (And while they're at it, a link to the restaurant's own webpage, if any.)

Amata wrote:But if Metromix instead wants to rely on its readership to do its updating work for it, they should at least make it easy by adding a prominent link on each "detail page" inviting readers to correct errors. (And while they're at it, a link to the restaurant's own webpage, if any.)

Web addresses would be great. I was doing homework on Moto yesterday, and I checked out the Metromix listing, couldn't find a web address and assumed, erroneously, that Moto didn't have one. They do, of course.

David

Cathy2 wrote:Hi Bill,

Maybe you could direct everyone to the correct e-mail --- we're not lazy -- we just want to direct it to the correct location.

Thanks for your feedback.

Regards,

HI Cathy2, I don't know where to start with that. the metromix website has a contact us button in the upper right hand corner -- it's an e-mail conduit for them. You put in your email, write down your question, comment, complaint. I'd begin there.

Amata wrote:Bill, this is not at all directed at you personally, just continuing the sub-topic here:

I think it would be worth while for the Reader and Metromix and any other online resource to hire someone -- call him/her a "fact-checker", let's say -- whose job is just to go through calling every listing and verifying the facts. When they get to the end of the thousands of listings, start all over again. (Kind of like painting the Golden Gate Bridge...) I've had enough disappointing experiences -- not just finding out that a promising-sounding place in an unfamiliar neighborhood is actually closed, but also, with still open places, that the hours listed in Metromix are no longer accurate -- that I've cut back on how much I use Metromix as a resource. And surely the only way Metromix can succeed is to maintain its reputation as a RELIABLE source of information.

But if Metromix instead wants to rely on its readership to do its updating work for it, they should at least make it easy by adding a prominent link on each "detail page" inviting readers to correct errors. (And while they're at it, a link to the restaurant's own webpage, if any.)

As a fact checker, I can vouch that going through 1,000+ listings repeatedly isn't really feasible for one person. And besides, maybe I call Sid's House O' Spumoni just before 5 on Friday, over the weekend Sid decides he'd rather be an organic snail farmer outside Seattle and shuts the place down on Monday -- that's more than a thousand calls before the listings will reflect it.

Every listing contains the phone number and often the email address -- don't wait until you're outside a dark, empty storefront to use 'em.

Amata wrote:Bill, this is not at all directed at you personally, just continuing the sub-topic here:

I think it would be worth while for the Reader and Metromix and any other online resource to hire someone -- call him/her a "fact-checker", let's say -- whose job is just to go through calling every listing and verifying the facts. When they get to the end of the thousands of listings, start all over again. (Kind of like painting the Golden Gate Bridge...) I've had enough disappointing experiences -- not just finding out that a promising-sounding place in an unfamiliar neighborhood is actually closed, but also, with still open places, that the hours listed in Metromix are no longer accurate -- that I've cut back on how much I use Metromix as a resource. And surely the only way Metromix can succeed is to maintain its reputation as a RELIABLE source of information.

But if Metromix instead wants to rely on its readership to do its updating work for it, they should at least make it easy by adding a prominent link on each "detail page" inviting readers to correct errors. (And while they're at it, a link to the restaurant's own webpage, if any.)

I've seen links to the restaurant's webpage somewhere, perhaps not in Metromix. I think your idea of hiring a proofreader to check all listings is a good idea but the job would be so foul the person would go mad. Also, you'd be surprised at how often restaurants can change hours, close days, etc. I mean, I've talked to owners who don't have a clue- they'll say sometimes we close at 10 or we close between 10 and 11. My reply: choose 1 and stick with it, because I don't want my readers being told 11 and you've decided to do 10.
And I don't think Metromix is relying on readers to do all of its updating for them, I mean they are professionals who know the city very well, but again a heads up now and then won't hurt. Better for you to spend 15 seconds typing out an e-mail than spending days being annoyed at the mistake.
Lastly, you can't be a passive consumer. Knowing that hours change, that owners get moody, typists make mistakes, the karma is wrong, whatever, I always call a new place before I go to make sure it's open, takes credit cards and actually the place I want to visit. The last one can be hard....I've gone to two Pakistani places in this town where I specifically asked if this was restaurant X and restaurant Y. I was told yes and in both cases they weren't those restaurants any longer.
Be empowered! Always check the sources, whether its metromix, LTHForum or the New York Times.

The phpBB software wrote:Bob S.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:00 pm

Hey, according to this, I am already at Moto! Perhaps I can knock over a bank on the way, since I have an ironclad alibi on the timestamp...

David Hammond wrote:

Amata wrote:But if Metromix instead wants to rely on its readership to do its updating work for it, they should at least make it easy by adding a prominent link on each "detail page" inviting readers to correct errors. (And while they're at it, a link to the restaurant's own webpage, if any.)

Web addresses would be great. I was doing homework on Moto yesterday, and I checked out the Metromix listing, couldn't find a web address and assumed, erroneously, that Moto didn't have one. They do, of course.

David

Okay, send a note to Metromix and ask them to include web addresses from now on. they'll either say yes or no. And if they say no, ask why.

Bob S. wrote:Every listing contains the phone number ...

um, if I can't believe what's in Metromix and I have to make a phone call first, I'll just use the phone book and not bother linking to Metromix. I think that is something that Metromix (and similar sites) should worry about.

Amata wrote:

Bob S. wrote:Every listing contains the phone number ...

um, if I can't believe what's in Metromix and I have to make a phone call first, I'll just use the phone book and not bother linking to Metromix. I think that is something that Metromix (and similar sites) should worry about.

Well, I think Metromix and similar sites worry about getting it right and getting it right the first time. But Metromix can't tell a restaurant owner what to do or how long he/she should stay open on a given day, Amata.
I mean, be reasonable...Metromix and sites like it should be seen as a resource, as sites where you can find ideas for activities, new places to dine, or just have fun. I don't think the phone book offers the same opportunity for exploration. that said, you have to be responsible for your own good time which means, unfortunately, calling up the place to make sure their hours haven't changed - a week ago, a day ago, 15 minutes ago. And, if not and you go to that restaurant and find it closed, you need to put the blame on yourself, not the poor website. C'mon, be fair.

David Hammond wrote:

Amata wrote:(And while they're at it, a link to the restaurant's own webpage, if any.)

Web addresses would be great.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if metromix was particularly uninterested in linking off site. I have to think some sort of policy to that effect is why they chose not to link to the translated menus.

billdaley wrote:Another thing I have found interesting over the years is that no one person or forum or book or tv show has a monopoly on good story ideas. Good stories are everywhere, you just have to keep your eyes open and look.

Completely true, of course. I never take care to make public note when a Forum or Chowhound favorite shows up in Cheap Eats, or when an article on a recently discussed topic appears. To me, mining online forums for stories isn't too big a deal. Mostly, I'm happy to have interesting stories get wider publicity. Sure, credit's nice, but as far as LTH Forum the entity, I think that's pretty low on our list of priorities.

I pointed out the "secret menu" piece because I think it was of an entirely different character. It's not taking or borrowing or simultaneously, serendipitously developing a similar story idea; it's missing and misrepresenting the story itself. As Mike G said: "It's wrong to just act as if [these translated menus] are a natural phenomenon which the Tribune discovered sitting out there."

Obviously, a metromix editor is not going to be as sensitive to this as a board participant who has followed the whole organic development of the secret menu identification and translations. But the piece itself revealed a sufficient level of detail that I have no doubt the reporter knew quite a bit more than was written. Whether the decision not to publish it and not to provide the obvious links was the writer's or the editor's, I don't know, but it just seems like sloppy journalism. I guess my real question is whether the sloppiness is accidental and careless or whether it is purposeful and policy-driven.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Bill, and for participating actively in the forum. Much as it's nice to be credited when appropriate, it's also nice to have users of the forum interact with the community.

Oh, and thanks for reminding me about the Good Eating survey. I encourage everyone to fill it out. Here's the link.

Upon locating and pasting this link...as a further example of the Tribune's apparent reluctance to embrace technology, the Good Eating survey cannot be filled out online. Rather, they ask you to copy and paste the survey into an email program and fill it out there.

Cheers,

Aaron

Amata wrote:

Bob S. wrote:Every listing contains the phone number ...

um, if I can't believe what's in Metromix and I have to make a phone call first, I'll just use the phone book and not bother linking to Metromix. I think that is something that Metromix (and similar sites) should worry about.

But if you're going to assume everything on the site is wrong, why are you going there?

Other than that, I think Bill nailed it:

Well, I think Metromix and similar sites worry about getting it right and getting it right the first time. But Metromix can't tell a restaurant owner what to do or how long he/she should stay open on a given day, Amata.
I mean, be reasonable...Metromix and sites like it should be seen as a resource, as sites where you can find ideas for activities, new places to dine, or just have fun. I don't think the phone book offers the same opportunity for exploration. that said, you have to be responsible for your own good time which means, unfortunately, calling up the place to make sure their hours haven't changed - a week ago, a day ago, 15 minutes ago. And, if not and you go to that restaurant and find it closed, you need to put the blame on yourself, not the poor website. C'mon, be fair.

Aaron Deacon wrote:Obviously, a metromix editor is not going to be as sensitive to this as a board participant who has followed the whole organic development of the secret menu identification and translations. But the piece itself revealed a sufficient level of detail that I have no doubt the reporter knew quite a bit more than was written. Whether the decision not to publish it and not to provide the obvious links was the writer's or the editor's, I don't know, but it just seems like sloppy journalism. I guess my real question is whether the sloppiness is accidental and careless or whether it is purposeful and policy-driven."

Bill: I think this is something you need to share with the editors at Metromix, Aaron.

"Oh, and thanks for reminding me about the Good Eating survey. I encourage everyone to fill it out. Here's the link.

Upon locating and pasting this link...as a further example of the Tribune's apparent reluctance to embrace technology, the Good Eating survey cannot be filled out online. Rather, they ask you to copy and paste the survey into an email program and fill it out there. "

Bill: I know I know, When I go mad I'm going to point to that "copy and paste direction." that said, we've received 100's of e-mails, dozens of faxes and now hundreds of letters - all with proper postage. it's very impressive and very inspiring that readers think of the section as theirs.

billdaley wrote:I know I know, When I go mad I'm going to point to that "copy and paste direction." that said, we've received 100's of e-mails, dozens of faxes and now hundreds of letters - all with proper postage. it's very impressive and very inspiring that readers think of the section as theirs.

Hey, clearly you're not the technophobe on staff...does Eric Zorn know about this?

Hey, Bob S and Bill D,

I apologize if what I said above antagonized either or both of you. Coming from an academic background, I take the position that everything published -- on paper and on the web -- should strive for 100% accuracy. Otherwise what's the point? The fact that this ideal is seldom completely achieved doesn't mean that we should stop trying, or that it's wrong to desire accurate information.

I actually like Metromix: the idea of it is great, the execution is pretty good (certainly miles above a lot of the garbage out there on the internet). I love the feature of finding out what's within .25 mile, etc. If I didn't like it as much as I do, I wouldn't bother making suggestions for improvement. I just wish it were better, that's all.

Bill, let me echo Aaron's sentiments and say again that I'm really glad you are participating in this forum. Hearing about issues from your point of view is quite enlightening, and I hope others from the Tribune (and elsewhere) will join the conversation as well.

Amata