Whole Foods Vs. Wal-Mart

Did anyone else read this article in the Atlantic comparing the quality and earth/local friendliness of Wal-Mart vs. Whole Foods?

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/201003/w ... al-produce

interesting read, thanks for posting the link.

So, while nearby phamacies, tire stores, grocery stores, clothing stores, etc., etc. will have to close because of the Walmart opening, and fully half the staff will work without medical coverage, the neighborhood will at least get to revel in the consumption of locally grown green zebra tomatoes.

Within a two-mile radius of the Wal-Mart near me are at least five pharmacies (do you really think Wal-Mart's going to put Walgreen's out of business?), seven grocery stores, six tire stores, and I don't know how many clothing stores (maybe some have closed inside the mall, but hey, they're in a mall). Me personally, I'd love to be able to get some paying work, even part time, even without medical coverage, and I know dozens of my neighbors would too.

I'm not one for fierce loyalties and hatreds - Microsoft/Apple, New York pizza/Chicago pizza, big box/mom 'n' pop, political parties or personages - so it's not out of any particular loyalty to Wal-Mart that I say this, but where I live, your dire description of the consequences of having a Wal-Mart nearby haven't panned out.

Meanwhile, the butter, the milk, the bread, the eggs, the noodles, and other things we need are cheaper there, and right now, we need that. And some of the prescriptions, not all, but some, we can get there for $4. No other nearby store or pharmacy, big or small, can do that for us.

I hate the parking lot, hate how people wander all over it, in foot and in cars, without looking where they're going, and no way will I go near the Wal-Mart parking lot right before Christmas, for fear of running over someone. The inside of Wal-Mart, though ... I've had to come to be thankful for it.

All your points are valid.

Suggest that you look up the recent history of Walmart and Rubbermaid -- one time Northeastern Il company -- in order to expand your understanding of the former.

Katie wrote: your dire description of the consequences of having a Wal-Mart nearby haven't panned out.

That's because we have study after study that proves it. Are there instances? Yes. Do people get lower prices which impact their lives in a meaningful way? Absolutely.

Oh, I'm not discounting the Wal-Mart effect studies. I'm just saying this particular Wal-Mart is not surrounded by a wasteland of closed businesses. Walgreen's didn't leave the neighborhood; it opened two more stores.

Im no fan of Wal Mart(even less of a fan of WF), but shop @ Wal Mart weekely for staple items(no meat, some fresh veg., no clothes, no tires, no prescriptions). Why? because they are the cheapest around. That $20 or so a week I save @ Walmart goes to some other part of the budget. It is what it is, gotta look out for #1 and my family.

As for the organics, I really dont care about organic food one way or the other, Ive tried it, and tasted zero difference between it and conventional items(I am all about taste, not the other mumbo jumbo that can be twisted depending on who funds the research).

I do like the idea of Wal Mart beating Whole Foods at their own game though, allowing folks who dont have the grocery budget to shop @ Whole Foods, but like or care about organics the chance to buy them where they may shop & afford them. Kind of takes the elitist aura away from it, and I like that.

Katie wrote:I'm not one for fierce loyalties and hatreds - Microsoft/Apple, New York pizza/Chicago pizza, big box/mom 'n' pop, political parties or personages - so it's not out of any particular loyalty to Wal-Mart that I say this, but where I live, your dire description of the consequences of having a Wal-Mart nearby haven't panned out.

Meanwhile, the butter, the milk, the bread, the eggs, the noodles, and other things we need are cheaper there, and right now, we need that. And some of the prescriptions, not all, but some, we can get there for $4. No other nearby store or pharmacy, big or small, can do that for us.

I hate the parking lot, hate how people wander all over it, in foot and in cars, without looking where they're going, and no way will I go near the Wal-Mart parking lot right before Christmas, for fear of running over someone. The inside of Wal-Mart, though ... I've had to come to be thankful for it.

Prior to WalMart arriving in Woodstock, IL, the lone grocery store was a new Jewel-Osco store. The prices at the Woodstock Jewel were consistently MUCH higher than the Jewel in Crystal Lake. Since their arival, Wisted's bought out the shuttered Eagle store, Aldi opened a large new store. There has been one major closure - the old K-mart.

Personally, I thought that the critical passage in the story was:


“In an ideal world, people would buy their food directly from the people who grew or caught it, or grow and catch it themselves. But most people can’t do that. If there were a Walmart closer to where I live, I would probably shop there. Most important, the vast majority of Walmarts carry a large range of affordable fresh fruits and vegetables. And Walmarts serve many ‘food deserts,’ in large cities and rural areas - ironically including farm areas. I’m not sure I’m convinced that the world’s largest retailer is set on rebuilding local economies it had a hand in destroying, if not literally, then in effect. But I’m convinced that if it wants to, a ruthlessly well-run mechanism can bring fruits and vegetables back to land where they once flourished, and deliver them to the people who need them most.”


For the record, my purchases at WalMart are generally limited to the pharmacies and the gasoline. The former because I have consistently received a lot better service at the WalMart/Sam's Club pharmacies than at either Costco or Walgreen's.

Very interesting article.

Make no mistake that Wal-Mart is a game changer. They changed the way people shop for consumer durables and household goods, then later groceries, automotive work, etc and more recently, prescriptions. They have commoditized toilet paper, vitamins and prescriptions, and if they set their minds to organic produce, they'll change that game too.

I don't mean that they will put Whole Foods out of business, not at all. Certainly they have driven weaker competition out of business, particularly in smaller towns across America. But their greater impact on the retail industry is that they have forced their competitors (grocery stores, Target, etc) to innovate in other ways because it has been impossible for anyone to compete with Wal-Mart on price. Really, over time this could be a good thing for those of us whose impressions of Whole Foods' dedication to fresh, organic produce has waned considerably over the last few years.

One major difference I see between Wal-Mart vs Whole Foods as opposed to WM vs grocery, pharmacy, etc (especially locally, but also on the west coast) is that they don't compete with one another geographically as often. Wal-Mart often starts on the fringe of a market and works its way in, whereas Whole Foods will jump headfirst into more urban and suburban areas. Maybe that will change over time.

Note: In case this was not obvious, I work in retail.

Katie wrote:Oh, I'm not discounting the Wal-Mart effect studies. I'm just saying this particular Wal-Mart is not surrounded by a wasteland of closed businesses. Walgreen's didn't leave the neighborhood; it opened two more stores.

I think you misread me- I agree with you I'm a pretty big pro-Wal-Mart guy.

PitaChip wrote:Very interesting article.

Make no mistake that Wal-Mart is a game changer. They changed the way people shop for consumer durables and household goods, then later groceries, automotive work, etc and more recently, prescriptions. They have commoditized toilet paper, vitamins and prescriptions, and if they set their minds to organic produce, they'll change that game too.

I don't mean that they will put Whole Foods out of business, not at all. Certainly they have driven weaker competition out of business, particularly in smaller towns across America. But their greater impact on the retail industry is that they have forced their competitors (grocery stores, Target, etc) to innovate in other ways because it has been impossible for anyone to compete with Wal-Mart on price. Really, over time this could be a good thing for those of us whose impressions of Whole Foods' dedication to fresh, organic produce has waned considerably over the last few years.

One major difference I see between Wal-Mart vs Whole Foods as opposed to WM vs grocery, pharmacy, etc (especially locally, but also on the west coast) is that they don't compete with one another geographically as often. Wal-Mart often starts on the fringe of a market and works its way in, whereas Whole Foods will jump headfirst into more urban and suburban areas. Maybe that will change over time.

Note: In case this was not obvious, I work in retail.

I think there's a place for Wal-Mart and there's a place for Whole Foods. Some communities can't handle both due to their size, but they operate almost entirely on different product lines. That said, I've got a huge bias in that I don't tend to buy many CPG's.

jpschust wrote:

Katie wrote:Oh, I'm not discounting the Wal-Mart effect studies. I'm just saying this particular Wal-Mart is not surrounded by a wasteland of closed businesses. Walgreen's didn't leave the neighborhood; it opened two more stores.

I think you misread me- I agree with you I'm a pretty big pro-Wal-Mart guy.

You're right, I did misunderstand you. Sorry.

This all partly boils down, I think, to what the Stonyfields CEO likes to claim, that if organics capture 10% of the market, then prices go down for everyone. I doubt this will ever happen (the lower prices), but no doubt it would either ultimately help smaller producers or force larger producers to behave more responsibly/modestly, like smaller producers. It's also noted in the article that the Walmart effect works both ways. Yes, in one fast move Walmart can quickly, for better or for worse, impact a neighborhood or community. But at the same time the company's decision to skew green (in terms of lightbulbs, roofs, etc.), for example, had an instant positive impact on what and the ways Americans consume. When the behemoth changes direction, the world changes with it.

Katie wrote: The inside of Wal-Mart, though ... I've had to come to be thankful for it.

Can't leave the actual experience of shopping there out of the picture! That's most of the fun of going there.

http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/

I just read this article and I think a number of people have either not read it or missed the point. Walmart is NOT getting into the organics market, they are getting into the "Locally produced" market. they are transacting directly with small scale farmers geographically close to specific Walmart locations and carrying the farmers' products, without dealing with any distributor or other middle-men. This results in the availability of fresher produce at a lower price than most other retail outlets, including WF. A taste test was conducted and described in the article wherein chefs created identical dishes using ingredients purchased at Walmart vs WF. The dishes made with local produce purchased at Walmart won the test decisively (meat and dairy dishes made with Walmart ingredients did not fare so well).

auxen1 wrote:the neighborhood will at least get to revel in the consumption of locally grown green zebra tomatoes.

According to the article, they are not exhibiting any interest in promoting heirloom varieties at this point.

By the way, this is the first time in my life I have ever come close to defending Walmart. I am normally vehemently opposed to Walmart for all the reasons previously stated: hair-raising labor practices, negative effects on local economies and disastrous vendor relationships, etc etc... I have not set foot inside a Walmart in I don't know how many years, and I don't know if this new development will change my mind. I just thought there was a great deal of misunderstanding in this thread about the actual content of the article.

A friend just sent me this video about Whole Food's "organic" food sources. It's two years old, but according to their website, they are still sourcing from China. I find it hard to believe that anything like the rigorous standards U.S. organic foods are subjected to apply. I'm not a fan of Walmart, either, but I think I'd rather buy locally grown produce there than "organic" food from China at Whole Foods prices.

Hi- I don't like the fact that much of Whole Food's frozen organic produce comes from China. They claim that they cannot source enough of it in this country. I also get suspicious when I see wild caught frozen fish in the groceries stores, and then I find out that it comes from China. I just do not trust any food from China. Hope this helps, Nancy

From Morningnewsbeat.com:
http://www.morningnewsbeat.com/

National Public Radio has an interview with Corby Kummer, senior editor of the Atlantic, who wrote a piece for the magazine recently favorably comparing the produce sold at Walmart to that sold at Whole Foods. Some excerpts:

• Follow the yellow brick road... “It wasn't exactly like coming into Oz, but it was very surprising. I'd been told that Wal-Mart was going after high-ish-end supermarkets, and I'd better get myself to one of their so-called supercenters and have a look at the fruit and vegetables. So I did. It wasn't so easy in Boston because the closest stores in Boston are the oddly named neighborhood stores, which, of course, you know, are vast and look nothing like neighborhood stores that we think of. But I found myself in this supercenter, and I found very good-looking produce, and, in fact, one of those pick-your-own apple bags - you know, they're cute and white and have pictures of apples and handles on them - from exactly the same Massachusetts farm that I had seen at Whole Foods the day before. So, I decided I'm going to try doing a regular marketing here.”

• On a taste test he engineered... “I went armed with the exact shopping list to get the same set of ingredients at Whole Foods and Wal-Mart and bring them into the restaurant kitchen, where I can assure you the cooks were very surprised to see a parade of Wal-Mart bags coming into their walk-in ... (The guests/tasters) only knew they came from two different purveyors and that they were the same thing, and that they had to score them on sheets. They were local food bloggers and food tasters and restaurant critics and one farmer who turned out to be another contributor to the Food Channel, who turned out to be the ringer. She knew the difference. But most people found themselves routinely preferring the vegetables and fruit from Wal-Mart, and they weren't happy when it was un-blinded.”

• The Walmart initiative... “They've launched this initiative very quietly, because it's still in the test phases - but, of course, a test phase for Wal-Mart has huge implications and huge immediate results, which is that they're trying to revive agriculture in areas for staple crops, not fancy heirlooms like we think of with farmers markets, staple crops: onions, potatoes, lettuce, herbs, things that are - have really only been available from California and Florida and Texas, big-ag states.

And they're saying if you can deliver them to one of our distribution centers that's within a day's drive, we will buy from you, not California and Florida, and the money that we save on the three to five days of truck transport, we'll pay you a slight premium, as long as we can offer it at Wal-Mart at the same price we would be for produce from the big-ag states. That's their initiative.

“It is huge because, in a state like mine - I just talked about apples in Massachusetts, once an extremely important crop commercially, lost out entirely to Washington State. And now - and to an extent, New York State. And now both of those states are losing out to China, which decided 10 to 15 years ago to plant enormous crops of apples.

So the - all of this centralization doesn't pay off for farming areas, and Wal-Mart recognized this and recognized that a lot of university networks and nonprofits are trying to help farmers get access to enormous markets like Wal-Mart by helping smooth the distribution network, which is always the big sticking point in buying local produce for big supermarket chains. So they decided: Let's capitalize on this government investment, some of it from smoking settlement money in tobacco-growing states, and see what we can do to try to get farms to raise these staple crops they long ago had to give up.”

• The long-term strategy... “Everyone's suspicious of Wal-Mart. I'm suspicious of Wal-Mart. And the proof of their sincerity is going to be whether they renew these contracts year after year, because very right-minded - I'm not going to name supermarket chains that make a big deal of buying local produce - will buy it for one year from a farm, and the farm gets all excited, invests in a lot more acreage, and then the next year, the buyer has disappeared because there's a lot of staff turnover. There's no loyalty to this farmer, and this farmer is stuck with a lot of crop that she or he can't sell. The majority of farmers, at least in Massachusetts, are women.

“So the question is whether Wal-Mart is going to, you know, put its money where its mouth is - which I think it will, because it's hardly publicized this at all - and buy year after year from the farmers who do increase their acreage.”

KC's View: One of the other things that Kummer tells NPR is that he has heard anecdotal stories that Whole Foods can be tougher for suppliers to work with than Walmart...which is sort of ironic, considering the Bentonville Behemoth’s reputation.

As folks know I live in a rural ex-urb of Chicago, and do my weekely grocery shopping @ Super Wal-Mar(except meat, and seafood). Within the last few months I have been noticing a gradual increase in the ammount of organic produce available. Before it was just carrots, celery, green onions, garlic, and a couple other items. Now I see romaine lettuce, and yesterday russet potatoes.

Now I dont see a taste difference in organic products(I have done side by side blind tests), but any less chemicals my family can consume is a good thing. When priced competitively I will almost alway buy the organic version(i know thats gonna be a big surprise to a couple folks but it shouldnt be with how picky I am with the meat and seafood i buy). Competitively to me is withinn $.10 - $.30 of the non organic. I grabbed some of the orgainic russets yesterday based solely on the pack size(it was a smaller bag, and I always seem to be throwing away potatoes that I cant use(I am Irish, but come on).

I hope this trend keeps up, and I and others have more choice, and in turn pricing working class folks like myself can afford to serve.

As for WF, I hadnt been in a long time(and now have gone for 2 weeks straight for oysters(nice), bb ribs(not good), avacados(ok), top round(ok), and enjoy walking around the store, sure there are alot of items I have no use for(vegan/veggie stuff, prepared foods, expensive-bad deli). Their meat is ridiculously priced(and no better than the regular stuff I buy @ RD, Brookhaven, Caputos, or my butcher). The staff is friendly & knowldegeable, their produce is pretty(but too expensive), & their seafood seems economical. Their cheese department is impressive, and I love that olive bar. Overall I can see this place staying in my regular rotation.

Jim, as a fellow southwest sider also of Irish descent I find your last post unbelievable.

Always throwing out potatoes ("bud daid does" as my grandmother used to sing) ? Maybe you're adopted.

It's pretty tough to grow potatoes in quantities sufficient to feed all the Irish now living in North America without some practice or application that addresses insects. The Colorado potato beetle is a pretty bad little guy and it's impossible to turn a profit with him setting up house.

I don't know if there's a more chemically dependent food crop in North America. You can grow organic potatoes on the margins of potato production, but if all U.S. potato production went organic tonight productivity would be unable to meet demand. I wish it weren't so.

There used to be genetically modified potatoes that were insect resistant. But the activists ran a campaign targeting big fast food chains, the chains backed down, so back to the chemistry solution for potatoes.

auxen1 wrote:
Always throwing out potatoes ("bud daid does" as my grandmother used to sing) ? Maybe you're adopted.

lol... not always, but it has happened before where I couldn't use up every one in a 10# bag..(especially with a filipino wife who is always wanting rice on the menu. )

btw I was adopted. but have obviously embraced my adopted roots.

interesting facts you have about potatoes. I learned something for sure.

Jim, the first time we went to Ireland we were amazed and delighted that at most dinners potatoes were served three or four different ways. And the crappiest little restaurant had a light and relatively sophisticated touch with their potatoes. It was really something. Welcome to the tribe.

auxen1 wrote:Jim, the first time we went to Ireland we were amazed and delighted that at most dinners potatoes were served three or four different ways. And the crappiest little restaurant had a light and relatively sophisticated touch with their potatoes. It was really something. Welcome to the tribe.

3-4 different potato dishes at dinner.,.. I'd like that.

I am going to keep my eyes peeled @ Wal Mart to see what other organic items start to pop up in the produce section.

Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) is a natural bacterium that is approved for use by organic growers and really messes up the digestive system of many caterpillars and insect larva. Various strains are used for different insects with one particularly targeting potato bugs. Growing organic cabbage or broccoli without a lot of worms is tough without using Bt.

Do not confuse the bacterium with the Bt GMO trait, which causes plants to contain a protein that is present in the bacterium without having any bacteria present.

jimswside wrote:Now I dont see a taste difference in organic products(I have done side by side blind tests), but any less chemicals my family can consume is a good thing.

Looks like a Harvard study is backing you up on that one, Jim.

WebMD Article on Harvard Study wrote:Relatively low-level exposure to common pesticides -- probably from residues on foods -- doubles kids' risk of ADHD, Harvard researchers find.

-Dan

dansch wrote:

jimswside wrote:Now I dont see a taste difference in organic products(I have done side by side blind tests), but any less chemicals my family can consume is a good thing.

Looks like a Harvard study is backing you up on that one, Jim.

WebMD Article on Harvard Study wrote:Relatively low-level exposure to common pesticides -- probably from residues on foods -- doubles kids' risk of ADHD, Harvard researchers find.

-Dan

thanks for the link Dan.

Out where I live there is little access to organics, other than the handfull of items I have mentioned seeing/buying @ Super Walmart or even Korgers.

I am really interested in going to the Growing Homes Marseilles farm this Sunday for their farm tour and open house. Hopefully this will give me a local option that is affordable, and good.