The value of value?

In another thread, Mike G wrote:It was a good shake, but I couldn't help but think that I'd just paid three times as much for one third as much.

We have a longstanding joke here: "But how were the portions?"

It refers to a long-ago review in which somebody went on and on about how inedible the food was at some now-forgotten restaurant and then capped his comments with a complaint about the serving size.

But what if the food is good? How much are you influenced by your perception of the value you're getting for your dollar?

In the instance above, the restaurant makes its own ice cream, and probably the shake involved is handcrafted from as high quality a batch of ingredients as you're likely to get. Yet it's just a milkshake. And there are lots of places you could get a bigger one that would taste as good or nearly as good for lots less.

I had the same feeling the other night when I paid $15 for a bowl of bibimbap at an upscale pan-Asian place. It was fine, although I have certainly had better. Yet I couldn't help but reflect that at most of the Korean restaurants in town, not only would it have been half the price, but it would also have come accompanied by kimchi and banchan, which this one did not.

How much does your perception of value affect where you dine and what you order there?

Do you ever choose one restaurant over another where the food tastes a bit better because the first restaurant is cheaper or serves larger quantities? (Now, I don't mean going to a hot-dog stand instead of Alinea.)

I have long thought value was an important part of a dining experience.

The price and to some extent the effort required to get the food (be it a long drive or long wait in line) are an integral part of the dining experience. You brought up an excellent example of an upscale Asian restaurant. The fact that you can get superior food at less cost inherently makes you think less of what you're eating. I think Sweets and Savories is a good example of the opposite. If the meal you get at Sweets cost 60 dollars a head instead of 30 dollars a head, I think I'd be a lot less impressed.

In the same way that people have different opinions on what foods taste better (or are prepared better), opinions differ on what constitutes a good value. We love Publican, but we always feel like the bill is higher than we'd expect. I can't think of a restaurant that does what they do equally well for less money, but we just don't feel like going there frequently because it seems to cost more than we think it's worth. That doesn't mean the food at Publican is bad. We just don't see the value. Apparently others do, because the restaurant is always packed.

Yes.

That being said, value is in the eye of the beholder: as I hope is evidenced by the above link, things like ambience, silverware, service, etc. are not things I value much; for other people they are the make-or-break point of the meal. In most cases I value craftsmanship and high quality ingredients over speed, convenience, and comfort. Reminds me of the brides on TLC describing their hoopskirted, beribboned, and bejeweled wedding dresses as "simple" and "elegant." So, in the examples you've listed above, I would probably go for the smaller, higher-quality expensive milkshake and I will probably walk out on a place serving $25 bibimbap unless you can convince me there's a good ingredient or technique-based reason it costs so much. (I fully recognize that this may just be me being cheap, but when your income is based on someone's life being on the line, you have a slightly altered perception of expense.)

One thing I really resent: I am a fair cook - that is, on a good day, I can get a fancy meal on the table with only a misstep or two. If I'm going to forgo my own cooking and spend over $30pp (plus babysitter) for my husband and I to eat out, I am going to be EXTREMELY pissed-off if that meal isn't executed better than mine. (For this reason, we are usually happier in ethnic places where we spend less, and I'm guessing the fine dining world is grateful for our absence.)

Mhays wrote:I will probably walk out on a place serving $25 bibimbap

So would I. It was only $15, which is a lot more than its ingredients merited. It cost so much, I imagine, in part because of the location's rent.

Years ago, I vividly recall taking a friend, a well-traveled, well-to-do gourmet, to Le Titi de Paris, where we had an excellent meal. Afterward, as we dried our hands on paper towels in the ladies' room, she commented, "For $20 more a plate, we'd have cloth towels."

I enjoy the trappings of fine dining, and the service, and sometimes I'm willing to pay for them. I understand that more than food goes into making a great restaurant. I appreciate quality ingredients and craftsmanship even more.

Yet sometimes -- even when I'm not the one paying -- when we leave a place that's served us 10 courses of exquisitely prepared tiny dishes, and my still-hungry husband wants to go through a drive-thru on the way home, I wonder whether value and sustenance trump excellence.

LAZ wrote:We have a longstanding joke here: "But how were the portions?"

It refers to a long-ago review in which somebody went on and on about how inedible the food was at some now-forgotten restaurant and then capped his comments with a complaint about the serving size.

But what if the food is good? How much are you influenced by your perception of the value you're getting for your dollar?

Last night, I ate up at Popeye's in Lake Geneva. Ordinarily, I avoid going to Lake Geneva for dinner as the food never seems to match up with the price but I promised to take one of my employees to dinner and he wanted to walk around the lake.

I ordered the Roast Pig dinner. A real rip-off. I received four slices of meat, each piece included a large bone and it was overcooked. In all, I had about 5 oz of meats along with a baked potato, a limp salad, and some fresh vegetables. All for $19.99. I could have have easily put together that meal for $5 at home and cooked the meat better.

He had a chicken thigh quarter and a potato for $12.99. It was also a small portion of chicken. His plate looked very, well empty.

Add that to the inattentive service and it is not a place I plan to return back to.

Personally, I do not mind paying the money but I hate when I eat a meal and am hungry in three hours or when I feel ripped off.

You make an interesting point, J - value is not always offered in a humble establishment, especially in fast-food or chain restaurants. Members of my extended family often prefer national chains, as they percieve the value to be higher - I guess because predictability and service (and, I suppose, they think of these places as "clean") are more important to them that quality ingredients.

As a cook, I can tell that most of the "cooking" in these places involves opening up and heating bags of stuff, which, again, I could do at home (sometimes with the exact same stuff.) By my estimation, these places offer some of the worst value ever. Again, it's a subjective measure.

Mhays wrote:You make an interesting point, J - value is not always offered in a humble establishment, especially in fast-food or chain restaurants. Members of my extended family often prefer national chains, as they percieve the value to be higher - I guess because predictability and service (and, I suppose, they think of these places as "clean") are more important to them that quality ingredients.
.

Popeye's in Lake Geneva is an independent restaurant, not a humble chain. It is known for its roasting pit out back. However, a nice grilling pit does not mean that the final product is any good.

The Flat Iron steak that I had at TGI Friday's for $16.99 including potato, wedge salad, and cheesecake was well prepared and an excellent value. I am no fan of that chain but since the last few meals at non-chain restaurants have been abysmal, I am more likely to agree with your family members.

Sorry, didn't realize - however, my initial principle still holds true: for me, it's more about the food and how it is prepared than it is about other stuff. I would be willing to try the flatiron steak at a place like TGI Fridays (and this at least gives me some direction the next time I'm dragged there.) In general, though, we've found that I can do better at home for substantially less money than the chains can do, in which case I would rather not eat there.

LTH,

I value value, but if the value of the value is not perceived as value then the value is less than valuable.

Enjoy,
Gary

LAZ wrote:We have a longstanding joke here: "But how were the portions?"

It refers to a long-ago review in which somebody went on and on about how inedible the food was at some now-forgotten restaurant and then capped his comments with a complaint about the serving size.

Well, LTHForum can't lay claim to this joke. It's an old, old joke, likely from a famous "borscht-belt" comic. Woody Allen uses it to great effect in "Annie Hall":

Alvy Singer wrote:There's an old joke.....two elderly women are at a Catskill mountain resort, and one of 'em says, "Boy, the food at this place is really terrible." The other one says, "Yeah, I know; and such small portions." Well, that's essentially how I feel about life - full of loneliness, and misery, and suffering, and unhappiness, and it's all over much too quickly.

My perception of value rarely affects where I dine and never affects what I order. I am rarely concerned with portion size, in fact, I am probably one of the few that finds I am more often served way too much and would be happy to pay the same amount for 2/3rds of what I was served.

The rare occasions when I am concerned about value is at the very high end of the cost spectrum, but I wonder if I am more concerned about budget than value. I have never been to Alinea, not because I don't think I'll get my money's worth, but because I can't fathom the sticker shock.

Best,
Michael

eatchicago wrote:The rare occasions when I am concerned about value is at the very high end of the cost spectrum, but I wonder if I am more concerned about budget than value. I have never been to Alinea, not because I don't think I'll get my money's worth, but because I can't fathom the sticker shock.

In one sense, I do think of value in terms of service. At a restaurant where it is likely I will spend in the neighborhood of $400-$500 for a dinner for two, the gratuity is expected to reach $100 (or more in certain situations). There is absolutely no situation where I value service that highly. I do not want to be pampered, babied, or impressed with flawless impeccable service. I can appreciate a job well done, but I can't imagine a situation where I would like to pay a service gratuity the same amount I would spend on 5 full trips to Khan BBQ.

I tend not to get comparative about it. And I also don't let markup stand in my way. This is not say that there aren't things that are too expensive for me--of course there are. But when I do react negatively to price, it's not because I feel that someone else will sell me the same thing for less, or because I feel the markup is unfair, it's because I'm just not comfortable parting with that much money for something so transitory as food. (This is why I haven't been to Alinea or L2O, for instance.) I'm somewhat concerned about dying poor.

If I see a $15 kimchee, or a $7 cannoli, or if, as yesterday, a mini, one-bite cupcake for $1.75, I don't say, "That's a ridiculous price for a one-bite cupcake. I've had huge, excellent cupcakes for a buck and a half, plus I know the cost of ingredients in that little cupcake can't be more than 12 cents." I evaluate it, instead, on the experience I'm about to have. "I'm here. I'm not somewhere else, I'm here. They have a cupcake that looks good to me. Regardless that it is not priced competitively to other equally-excellent cupcakes, I think the taste experience of that cupcake stands a good chance of being worth $1.75 to me right now, so it is a good value in terms of price versus anticipated experience." (By the way, I didn't get the cupcake. But it wasn't because of price, even though I noted the price as expensive for the size. It was because I wanted something else they had more.)

LAZ wrote:Do you ever choose one restaurant over another where the food tastes a bit better because the first restaurant is cheaper or serves larger quantities? (Now, I don't mean going to a hot-dog stand instead of Alinea.)

No, but the premise here kind of reminds me of what Joseph Stalin is reported to have said when someone observed that the Soviet Union had a great number of poor quality tanks; he said, “Yes, but quantity is a form of quality.”

David Hammond wrote:
No, but the premise here kind of reminds me of what Joseph Stalin is reported to have said when someone observed that the Soviet Union had a great number of poor quality tanks; he said, “Yes, but quantity is a form of quality.”

And thus, the idea of the fast food chain is born.

stevez wrote:

David Hammond wrote:
No, but the premise here kind of reminds me of what Joseph Stalin is reported to have said when someone observed that the Soviet Union had a great number of poor quality tanks; he said, “Yes, but quantity is a form of quality.”

And thus, the idea of the fast food chain is born.

War-making and burger-flipping are now forever linked in my mind.

MHays - boy do I hear you. I've worked in kitchens enough to have mastered most preparations so, when I dine out, I want to be served something that I couldn't do at home -- or at least something I couldn't do nearly as well at home. That, good service and a cool atmosphere, are what I value in the dining out experience.

Unfortunately, most of my family and social circle are not very adventurous when it comes to food and opt for the "safer route" when we dine out.

So, I have had to become resigned to trying to get the most for my dollar at the national chains and the locally owned places (central Illinois) with solid, yet uninspired, cuisine that I now order the same thing every time at each place. I get a good meal that lives up to my expectations, and good service and atmosphere make it better than cooking at home.

For me, especially in this geographic area, the value is in finding what the chef/cook does best - for my palate - and stick with it. A couple times annually I get to go to Chicago and stretch my culinary wings, which I look forward to VERY MUCH!

Davooda

Mhays wrote:
One thing I really resent: I am a fair cook - that is, on a good day, I can get a fancy meal on the table with only a misstep or two. If I'm going to forgo my own cooking and spend over $30pp (plus babysitter) for my husband and I to eat out, I am going to be EXTREMELY pissed-off if that meal isn't executed better than mine. (For this reason, we are usually happier in ethnic places where we spend less, and I'm guessing the fine dining world is grateful for our absence.)

You just described why a lot of my friends call me a "foodie." I get pretty irate when a place's profit margins are completely transparent. Yesterday, me, the Mrs, and the Jr. had lunch at Panera. $27.00. My turkey sammich was fake jello turkey.
I got a chocolate croissant that tasted like wonder bread wrapped around a hershey bar. Cinnamon roll ($2.50) had about the same flavor as cardboard with sugar frosting, and the density of a helium filled balloon. Never, ever, again. My $ is worth far more than that*.

If I'm asked for input on a meal venue, it's gonna be a dive with great food. Usually Thai, Indian, or sushi. For "American" fare, it's usually diner food. Well, the Depot Diner, that is - (places that we know prepare food with care, and are proud of what they are serving.)

*Plus now, I have to spend more money on therapy. I now need to seek out a real chocolate croissant, and a real cinnamon roll.

Here is how I get "value" from my purchases. I look over all my receipts. When the economy started to squeeze me I became much more diligent in doing this. It was amazing to me how often I was left holding the short end of the stick. Dine in, carry out, groceries, everything...check it out, because mistakes are never in your favor. Here are some recent examples: Buffalo Wild Wings...18 wings, they tried to charge me $29! Jewel grocery store… I spotted two hamburger patties packaged up for $9.98. (I pointed it out to the meat department and they took it off the shelf.) Buy one, get one free....better make sure you got it free! I have found up to $20 of "mistakes" on my grocery bills. Restaurant checks where the waitress has added up the bill...let’s just say math skills aren't what they use to be. Even higher priced restaurants have over charged for certain menu items. Bottom line, for me, the best value comes from VIGILENCE!

razbry wrote:Even higher priced restaurants have over charged for certain menu items. Bottom line, for me, the best value comes from VIGILENCE!

Agreed. I was charged an extra $20 at Browntrout last Friday (I was there for a $35 Rioja dinner, and they accidentally charged me for the dinner and an entree). I believe this was an honest mistake, and on a busy night, people are going to make mistakes. It is odd, however, that as you say, these mistakes are almost never in the customer's favor.

David Hammond wrote:

razbry wrote:Even higher priced restaurants have over charged for certain menu items. Bottom line, for me, the best value comes from VIGILENCE!

Agreed. I was charged an extra $20 at Browntrout last Friday (I was there for a $35 Rioja dinner, and they accidentally charged me for the dinner and an entree). I believe this was an honest mistake, and on a busy night, people are going to make mistakes. It is odd, however, that as you say, these mistakes are almost never in the customer's favor.

I tend to find more mistakes in my favor, actually: items that I wasn't charged for, undercharged for, etc. My wife and I nearly always point out these mistakes, though if we've already left the store/restaurant we generally don't bother.

Darren72 wrote:

David Hammond wrote:

razbry wrote:Even higher priced restaurants have over charged for certain menu items. Bottom line, for me, the best value comes from VIGILENCE!

I tend to find more mistakes in my favor, actually: items that I wasn't charged for, undercharged for, etc. My wife and I nearly always point out these mistakes, though if we've already left the store/restaurant we generally don't bother.

Me too.

The most frequent undercharger: Sam's Club. Several produce items were lower at the register than the shelf.

The most often to miss an item: Dominicks. The cashiers often bag items whether they actually scan. They also miscount a lot.

seebee wrote:
*Plus now, I have to spend more money on therapy. I now need to seek out a real chocolate croissant, and a real cinnamon roll.

My house. North side o' Berwyn!



BTW, be sure to check out Triple Play Cafe at 16th and Home. Not quite Depot American Diner, but SOLID.

This is an interesting thread. Like several others, I tend to go to the small ethnic spot where I know I'll get something genuine, tasty and value-for-money. In KC, where I've lived for 40 years, I do bbq, ethnic, and maybe, just maybe, something like the American every once in a while. Montréal is completely different: there is an enormous compression of prices (because of the taxes), which means that a wild place, such as Au Pied de Cochon, or an exquisite place, such as Tapeo, just isn't that much more expensive than my favorite neighborhood Portuguese grill resto. And even the ethnic places, such as the several wonderful new Asian places around Concordia U. aren't cheap in the American sense.

So value really does mean different things, depending on the context within which it is calculated.

My long-term favorite value discussion revolves around buying wine in restos... but don't get me going on that now! I'd go ballistic...

Geo