David Hammond wrote:I've always liked Brueghel (and his evil twin, Bosch), but as I'm basically an (Early) Italian Renaissance guy, I tend to see these mass scenes as the consequences of Humanism gone wild, an end of an era craziness that I also see in Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel, where you have people just piling onto one another, willy-nilly, without order and without any apparent impulse to moderate appetite.
mrbarolo wrote:Thanks so much for the beautiful, detailed post. What's the source? I didn't see even a little 2-sentence AP release that these sorts of stories usually generate. Would love to know more about how the attribution was made after so long.
David Hammond wrote:h_s, I'm very unfamiliar with the viewing situation of paintings like this, but my guess is that the peasants who are so frequently the subjects of Brueghel's paintings would probably rarely have had a chance to view his portrayals of their class. With that in mind, and for the first time, I'm wondering if there isn't a certain kind of condescension in his works, a kind of window on "the other side" for more moneyed patrons who would be amused by the folly of the lower orders.
David Hammond wrote:If it's not too much trouble, I'd like to see the full article.
happy_stomach wrote:Bruegel's biography is very incomplete, but I once read that he may have gone "undercover" to observe peasants and draw "from life." (It'd take me a while to dig up that citation.)
happy_stomach wrote:This boy with a turnip in the left foreground of the St. Martin’s painting is my new favorite. Tickled by a turnip, that's me!
David Hammond wrote:Are we absolutely sure this is not a white radish?
Mhays wrote:However, the end root is kind of beard-like, so I think Sharon is right. Besides, she's smarter than me.
happy_stomach wrote:David Hammond wrote:Are we absolutely sure this is not a white radish?
You mean daikon? No way. It's not the right shape.
David Hammond wrote:happy_stomach wrote:David Hammond wrote:Are we absolutely sure this is not a white radish?
You mean daikon? No way. It's not the right shape.
Didn't mean diakon, which would probably not have been growing in Brueghel's hood, but white radish (helios), which I grew in my garden last spring.
David Hammond wrote:...I tend to see these mass scenes as the consequences of Humanism gone wild, an end of an era craziness....
David Hammond wrote:h_s, I'm very unfamiliar with the viewing situation of paintings like this, but my guess is that the peasants who are so frequently the subjects of Brueghel's paintings would probably rarely have had a chance to view his portrayals of their class. With that in mind, and for the first time, I'm wondering if there isn't a certain kind of condescension in his works, a kind of window on "the other side" for more moneyed patrons who would be amused by the folly of the lower orders.
Mhays wrote:I wonder if this is significant in some way.
Gypsy Boy wrote:David Hammond wrote:h_s, I'm very unfamiliar with the viewing situation of paintings like this, but my guess is that the peasants who are so frequently the subjects of Brueghel's paintings would probably rarely have had a chance to view his portrayals of their class. With that in mind, and for the first time, I'm wondering if there isn't a certain kind of condescension in his works, a kind of window on "the other side" for more moneyed patrons who would be amused by the folly of the lower orders.
This seems to me to be an unwonted leap. The premise is largely true of art and artists for centuries and is hardly unique to Bruegel, as you know. It has been my understanding that, despite the very little we know about Bruegel, he had come from the very class he portrayed so often. But even if that is not the case, it seems to be an unwarranted conclusion based on extremely meager evidence: Bruegel painted peasants for wealthy patrons (inasmuch as wealthy patrons were the only patrons around),therefore there is condescension in his work. I can think of at least several other very different conclusions one might draw from that single premise. Indeed, this strikes me as the perfect circumstance for the application of Occam's razor: the simplest explanation is best. And here, why not that Bruegel painted peasants engaged in daily life because he liked the subject? Or found it worthy of depiction?
Gypsy Boy wrote:David Hammond wrote:...I tend to see these mass scenes as the consequences of Humanism gone wild, an end of an era craziness....
I disagree--at least to the extent that I understand David's point. While eras and ages and such are notoriously difficult to confine, Humanism was hardly nearing the end of its run in the 1560s. By my reckoning, it would be around for at least another century. And the 1560s are also too early for it to be the fin de siècle brooding that every end-of-century seems to prompt. (Unless, of course, you're referring to another era which escapes me--an entirely plausible, if not entirely likely, notion!)
David Hammond wrote:It wasn't a syllogism, bro, it was speculation.
David Hammond wrote:...I tend to see these mass scenes as the consequences of Humanism gone wild, an end of an era craziness....Gypsy Boy wrote:I disagree--at least to the extent that I understand David's point. While eras and ages and such are notoriously difficult to confine, Humanism was hardly nearing the end of its run in the 1560s. By my reckoning, it would be around for at least another century. And the 1560s are also too early for it to be the fin de siècle brooding that every end-of-century seems to prompt. (Unless, of course, you're referring to another era which escapes me--an entirely plausible, if not entirely likely, notion!)David Hammond wrote:Hold on a minute there, son, I'm not suggesting Humanism was coming to an end but rather the Renaissance, of which Humanism was a defining characteristic. Now, the exact dates of when an art historical period begins and ends is always going to be less than exact, as you note, but I think there would be general agreement that the movement that started in Italy in around the 1300s was winding down in around the 1500s.
David Hammond wrote:One other thing, hoss: not all white turnips are tinged with purple.
Gypsy Boy wrote:It has been my understanding that, despite the very little we know about Bruegel, he had come from the very class he portrayed so often. But even if that is not the case...
happy_stomach wrote:
Surely inspired by Bosch.