Culinary schools, a word of caution...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/culinary-school-grads-ripped-off_n_950107.html

Great in the proper perspective. A good foundation. Networking. Exposure to equipment and techniques.

But 30-60k in debt for jobs that pay $10-13 per hr are the reality. All of the above can also be gotten by working in the field (while earning instead of paying) or attending a community college @ a fraction of the price.

Jazzfood wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/culinary-school-grads-ripped-off_n_950107.html

Great in the proper perspective. A good foundation. Networking. Exposure to equipment and techniques.

But 30-60k in debt for jobs that pay $10-13 per hr are the reality. All of the above can also be gotten by working in the field (while earning instead of paying) or attending a community college @ a fraction of the price.

Christiane Pereira (the nice lady at Taste of Brazil) seems like she went to Triton's culinary school long enough to learn kitchen basics and then opened her own restaurant.

I wish this article came out ten years ago. I was lucky; I found work right away that paid $8 as an intern, but when I graduated I was hired and made about $12 an hour with benefits. I go back and forth regretting going to school, because I'm not a pastry chef and all my money is going to Sallie Mae instead of my own business, and it will for another decade. Had I but known.
What bothered me most was the bull they sold me on the class size. They told me there would be up to 20 kids per class and no more; Culinary 101, the worst class to overstuff, had over 40 people clanging into each other. I don't think there was ever a class under 35. Not only was it a clusterfuck in the kitchen, but there was not enough room for each person to cook an entire dish, so one person would cook rice, one would sauté vegetables, etc., so one rarely got the experience of cooking an entire recipe. We'd only cook each recipe once (unless it was on tap for a test day), so if you didn't get it the first time, you had to either shrug your shoulders or spend time teaching yourself in empty kitchens in off hours. That would have been fine if I didn't need a job to pay my bills.
My experience was less than what I hoped for, but I never thought of suing. I just felt like I really should have researched it a lot more. It makes me feel less guilty about ripping off all the things I baked that I was not allowed to take home with me.

The daughter of one of my friends went to one of those trade school culinary programs. Of course they promise a job. The first one, the owner shut the place down one night and took off with the receipts owing everyone money. Then she went on to a string of things like making sandwiches in a deli and working for a party planner that does little kids parties. She ultimately would up working for a national chain doing prep work which involved taking big bags of soup that were premade and frozen at some corporate location and heating them up in big pots. The big pots are heavy, she got hurt and is now on disability and trying to pay down her student loan.

Jazzfood wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/culinary-school-grads-ripped-off_n_950107.html

Great in the proper perspective. A good foundation. Networking. Exposure to equipment and techniques.

But 30-60k in debt for jobs that pay $10-13 per hr are the reality. All of the above can also be gotten by working in the field (while earning instead of paying) or attending a community college @ a fraction of the price.

The same can be said of "regular" college.

HI,

Joliet Community College's culinary school is considered very, very good by a Chicago Public School administrator who oversees culinary arts education.

Since he has reviewed all the various programs available, I thought his evaluation was worth listening to.

Regards,

This might come off the wrong way, but in the trenches
where I spend a lot of time, I'd rather have Latino folks
from the "School of Hard Knocks" beside me than most
culinary school grads. Sorry, but it's the truth.

I'm sure Jazzfood will agree with me.

This is very timely. My nephew, who is a very good cook, has a degree in graphic arts, but dreams of being a chef, and was trying to figure out how he could go to culinary school. I've passed the OP's comments along to him, to encourage him to consider something other than culinary school. Thanks.

Tell him to keep his day job.

Tell him to stodge to see if he loves it. And I mean LOVES. Then still don't bother going to school; take classes on things like knife skills, cooking techniques, etc. so he can do it in his free time.

in the trenches where I spend a lot of time, I'd rather have Latino folks from the "School of Hard Knocks" beside me than most culinary school grads. Sorry, but it's the truth.

True that. The soul of the kitchen. In S. Fla there was a large Haitian community to draw upon as well. We could never do what we do w/o their incredible contributions. In Portland Or and again in S. Fla I hired many students (maybe around 30)... a nightmare time and time again. Found the work ethic and attitude to be dismal. I can count the heavies on one hand.

It would be best for all concerned to understand, regardless of what they've been told, believe or seen on food network, that culinary schools pump out informed cooks, not chefs.

Evil and I will now go frolic in the Pre Mesozoic era we reside in.

I am guessing alot of the folks who got "tricked" had never stepped foot in a professional kitchen in their lives. FoodTV makes the job of chef or cook look appealing and romantic. Truth is its tough work, shitty hours, & low pay. Most cooks I knew had 2 or even 3 jobs.

As a side note, at least in the kitchens I worked in, the new culinary school grads & interns were many times outcasts with the rest of the kitchen team. kind of a college boy vs working class thing I guess.

Jazzfood wrote:or attending a community college @ a fraction of the price.

It's pretty much true across all fields that the for-profit colleges will cost much more than public institutions, whether community colleges or four-year schools. What do you get for your extra money? Convenient locations, parking, frequent terms, and slick advertising, plus lots of assistance in applying for the maximum in financial aid that may include expensive private loans. I would urge anyone considering a for-profit college to investigate the public and even private non-profit alternatives. The for-profit may be the best option for you, but know what you are getting into with your eyes open.

EvA wrote:

Jazzfood wrote:or attending a community college @ a fraction of the price.

What do you get for your extra money? Parking...

Unfortunately at my school, the students paid for parking and the visitors parked for free. And parking was at least $5 per hour (though I recall it being $9, but I can't be sure). It was valet, can you believe that shit? By the same company that does a lot of Chicagoland, those guys in the red jackets. So I'd either have to drive to Jefferson Park, take the blue line to the brown and walk three blocks with a wheeled knife kit the size of a suitcase weighing 20+ pounds or pay through the nose, as there was not much free parking in River North. Bastards.

I don't regret going to culinary school but I went in with my eyes open. A lot of folks I went with had their eyes closed. Which is dangerous, what with all the knives and fire.

Many of my co-workers who are the age I was when I went to culinary school are doing the four-year hospitality/F&B degree instead (which I also did). It is worth keeping in mind that a good percentage of the people I graduated from culinary school with are now out of the industry, or in the FOH, partially because of money--myself included.

Plenty of chefs respect the culinary education during the hiring process, and most of the chefs I have worked with in fine dining went to some kind of culinary program. But it is definitely not a prerequisite for most kitchen jobs.

An eye opener was seeing a recent No Reservations show. Anthony went back to Les Halles to work for a day in his former kitchen. Well not a one of the folks working there even spoke english it seemed. They were all hispanic and I would bet never set food in a cooking school, yet they were turning or rather churning out hundreds of plates of "French" food per day. I have nothing against this but it was a real eye opener to me regarding the job of cooks. Many work under almost sweat shop conditions that are very stressful. Also once you get older its hard on the knees and back to cook that way. It was stressing Tony and he's not even all that old but he had trouble keeping up.

toria wrote:An eye opener was seeing a recent No Reservations show. Anthony went back to Les Halles to work for a day in his former kitchen. Well not a one of the folks working there even spoke english it seemed. They were all hispanic and I would bet never set food in a cooking school, yet they were turning or rather churning out hundreds of plates of "French" food per day. I have nothing against this but it was a real eye opener to me regarding the job of cooks. Many work under almost sweat shop conditions that are very stressful. Also once you get older its hard on the knees and back to cook that way. It was stressing Tony and he's not even all that old but he had trouble keeping up.

Bourdain addressed that in his various books. He preferred line cooks from Puebla, Mexico for their work ethic under the somewhat oppressive kitchen environment. His replacement at Les Halles was a former line cook.

I do want to mention that all three of my sous chefs are graduates of different culinary programs (CIA, CHIC and Washburne). There is a lot to be said for a formal culinary education as opposed to coming up through the ranks like I did. Having that credential does open doors.

All three are talented, focused, hardworking, and dedicated with totally different skillsets that compliment one another.

My crew of about 10 full and part timers are all Mexican with no formal culinary training. In addition, there is an Ecuadorian fellow and a young gal who graduated the Illinois Institute of Art's program.

toria wrote:An eye opener was seeing a recent No Reservations show. Anthony went back to Les Halles to work for a day in his former kitchen. Well not a one of the folks working there even spoke english it seemed. They were all hispanic and I would bet never set food in a cooking school, yet they were turning or rather churning out hundreds of plates of "French" food per day. I have nothing against this but it was a real eye opener to me regarding the job of cooks. Many work under almost sweat shop conditions that are very stressful. Also once you get older its hard on the knees and back to cook that way. It was stressing Tony and he's not even all that old but he had trouble keeping up.

Was that a typo, or are you being clever? I like it either way.

It makes sense that cooking skills are better, and more cheaply, picked up on the job. But what about pastry chefs? It seems to me that I've seen some importance placed upon a stellar pastry education.

that was a typo. I am often on my netbook now and the keyboard is cramped hence bad punctuation and spelling occasionally that is missed.

toria wrote:An eye opener was seeing a recent No Reservations show. Anthony went back to Les Halles to work for a day in his former kitchen. Well not a one of the folks working there even spoke english it seemed. They were all hispanic and I would bet never set food in a cooking school, yet they were turning or rather churning out hundreds of plates of "French" food per day. I have nothing against this but it was a real eye opener to me regarding the job of cooks. Many work under almost sweat shop conditions that are very stressful. Also once you get older its hard on the knees and back to cook that way. It was stressing Tony and he's not even all that old but he had trouble keeping up.

Toria, Les Halles was exactly the same when Bourdain ran the kitchen.

In Milwaukee the Milwaukee Area Technical College culinary program is pretty well respected and a lot of the City's top restaurants are headed (and in many cases owned by graduates of MATC. Milwaukee Magazine did a profile of graduates this month.

Its pretty inexpensive too (I think the entire program is like $7,000).

eatwisconsin wrote:In Milwaukee the Milwaukee Area Technical College culinary program is pretty well respected and a lot of the City's top restaurants are headed (and in many cases owned by graduates of MATC. Milwaukee Magazine did a profile of graduates this month.

Its pretty inexpensive too (I think the entire program is like $7,000).

Cincinnati State offers a full culinary program at its Midwest Culinary Institute. The last time I looked, a two year associates degree was about $14k as opposed to private tuition close to $50k.

http://culinary.cincinnatistate.edu/

Speculation:

Self trained or restaurant trained cooks may have a more difficult time finding gainful employment in areas where there is something of a concentration of good cooking schools.

i.e.: I would think that it would be almost impossible to find a decent position in Providence, RI or Hyde Park, NY if you don't have formal training.

No doubt Kendall and Chic have contributed a valuable pool of candidates in the Chicago area.

It would seem that these graduates would be better off seeking employment in the hinterlands.

(It would leave more places for those of us with real restaurant experience! !

As should be (but usually isn't) the case in most jobs, doesn't it make more sense to spend a couple some time in the industry before shelling out the big bucks for school?

bean wrote:Speculation:

Self trained or It would seem that these graduates would be better off seeking employment in the hinterlands.

Hi,

I have been advocating this idea exactly. In my running around here and there, I am beginning to see this starting to happen.

Why be the little fish in the big pond. When you can be a big fish in a little pond.

Regards,

Suzy Creamcheese wrote:It makes sense that cooking skills are better, and more cheaply, picked up on the job. But what about pastry chefs? It seems to me that I've seen some importance placed upon a stellar pastry education.

It was a long time ago, and I am out of the business now, but I was a pastry chef for a while at restaurants that got written up in the Trib, Sun Times and Chicago magazine. I started as a prep cook at The Olive Garden after getting an unrelated college degree and working for several years in office jobs. I lucked into a job with Gale Gand before she was "Gale Gand." All my training was on the job, I started as garde manger, helping Gale put out desserts at dinner service. I would recommend that anyone considering culinary school of any sort spend at least a year in a good kitchen doing whatever job than can get before investing in school.

Hi- I just ran across this on yahoo, and it is scary. This is a story about a gentleman who graduated from a culinary school eight years ago, and the interest on his student loan is 19%, and he currently owes $142,000 on student loans, and to top it off he got injured on the job a few years ago, and is currently on disability, and living out of a van. He has been told that if he files for bankruptcy, that he will still be responsible for his student loans. He went to the California Culinary Academy, which advertises on the food channel all the time, and he is involved in a class action suit with them, which is going through the court system right now. The school is appealing the latest ruling. If they finally give up, and settle the case, all he will get is $16,000, which is nowhere near enough to cover his loan. Here is the link.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/this-brig ... loans.html

A few months ago there was a very interesting caller into a local radio station that was just about this topic. The topics was "jobs" and a sous chef called in. His issue was entitlement. While very well trained people who did not go to culinary schools knew what was going on and asked for salaries that were market rate, he said that he avoided any culinary school graduates due to the fact that they had a major chip on their shoulder and expected to start out with a larger salary and not on the line to learn about the establishment. His complaint was that they were learning for the first time about how hard they really had to work.

On the other hand, before I moved my father here, there was a culinary school that he visited every couple of weeks for the student's meals. I went with him once and the kitchen was behind glass so everyone could see what was being done. As I stood there watching an instructor came out of the kitchen and asked my opinion. Mine was "not realistic - not enough pressure, too much coddling, they need an apprenticeship as well". I was informed that the school had an agreement with a local native American gambling casino for the students to do a semester in the (well rated) kitchens. A student close to graduation sat down with Dad and I and talked to us about the semester in the casino - also mentioning that close to half the people dropped out of the program during or after the semester there.

Despite all the hype about celebrity chefs, the reality is that for most the food industry is a low-paying, high-stress job.

According to a recent report, 13.8% of food industry employees depend on food stamps.

More than 80 percent get no health insurance, and almost that many get no sick days. Think about undernourished, ill people who have no choice but to go to work ... preparing and serving your food.