Independents vs. Chains

Interesting article on Bloomberg entitled Mom-and-Pop Joints Are Trouncing America's Big Restaurant Chains. Chicago's own Brown Bag Seafood's owner is interviewed.

Lee started Brown Bag in 2014 after realizing chains didn’t do it for her. “It feels like you’re there only and solely to get your food quickly and get out the door,” she said. “There really is no charm.”

None of this is surprising to LTHers though.

Free-marketing websites, such as Yelp Inc., have boosted the fortunes of independents in the age of McDonald’s, Cracker Barrel, Domino’s, Taco Bell, Olive Garden -- the list goes on.

This statement opens the 5th paragraph. Yikes. If I had to depend on their bought-off and slanted commentaries for advice, I'd be in trouble indeed.

But the article definitely struck a chord because I just now returned from having lunch at Panera, where I spent twelve bucks for an underwhelming citrus Chinese chicken salad, corn chowder and Dr. Pepper. Usually it's at least decent (they didn't have my black bean soup, which they should have every day and is quite good) but today I said to myself I should've saved the money and made something at home that would have been more satisfying.

jnm123 wrote:

Free-marketing websites, such as Yelp Inc., have boosted the fortunes of independents in the age of McDonald’s,... Taco Bell,... -- the list goes on.

This statement opens the 5th paragraph. Yikes. If I had to depend on their bought-off and slanted commentaries for advice, I'd be in trouble indeed.

Just so I understand, you're (possibly somewhat facetiously?) describing Yelp reviews/posts as the "bought-off and slanted commentaries"? I'll assume that is what you are saying. I personally, like Yelp for the volume of pictures and access to a wide spectrum of consumer feedback, that I would otherwise not have access to. What people say doesn't impact my decisions on dining, just what factors play in to the fickle opinions and choices of consumers. The naivete of Yelpers, thinking the site exists to provide quality equitable commentary and insight, as opposed to (GASP!) make money, is a different problem.

Regarding what is "Independent" is the most subjective part of all this. It's undeniable that in the age of fast casual, more than one location is part of the growth plan of any restaurant grossing <$50/person. It is the rise of this quasi-independent, with 4-10 establishments under its control that blurs the line for me. The article cites DineAmic (Siena's, Public House), which I hardly consider to be the little guy (though I go to their places occasionally, good loyalty program). Where the "independent" is entering the market with multiple locations in the highest cost locations, where the fuck are we supposed to think they're money is coming from, and ours going? It's the same institutional capital behind the national chains, just in a different font. The most nauseating for me is the Furious Spoon+Firefin Poke corp (I just found out, w/ less than zero degree of surprise, that they're backed by the same group). Their rapid expansion into every high density neighborhood fast casual space vacancy is not the product of reinvestment of profits from a successful first location, it's just a step in the plan of a well capitalized corporate decision to open X amount of locations in Y market by Z date. If this is independent, I hardly stand for it.

Hence my feel good dining spending is nearly limited to immigrant founded and run Thai, Vietnamese, taquerias, and Middle Eastern places.

bweiny wrote:

jnm123 wrote:

Free-marketing websites, such as Yelp Inc., have boosted the fortunes of independents in the age of McDonald’s,... Taco Bell,... -- the list goes on.

This statement opens the 5th paragraph. Yikes. If I had to depend on their bought-off and slanted commentaries for advice, I'd be in trouble indeed.

Just so I understand, you're (possibly somewhat facetiously?) describing Yelp reviews/posts as the "bought-off and slanted commentaries"? I'll assume that is what you are saying.

It's well-documented that Yelp has been accused of manipulating their content, how it appears and a number of other factors. There are reports about this from credible sources all over the internet and elsewhere. I think it's entirely reasonable to question the integrity and veracity of what's posted there. Personally, I never use the site. I don't feel I can trust what's posted there in the least.

=R=

I fully agree with Ron. If I can't find at least something here on LTH about a place, or by reliable word-of-mouth, I am truly lost sussing out a place in advance. I may look at Y**p but exit more confused than before.

Maybe a thread should be started as to chains that are decent, and what dishes to order there. There would have to be at least a couple. My gosh, how many times have I been stuck in burgs like Asheville, NC or Fort Wayne, IN and all I see are Pizza Hut, Lone Star Steakhouse and the like?

I use Yelp but not as my first source of information, especially for Chicago. I will check a score to see what the general aggregate opinion is (accounting for how many reviews there are), search comments for specific phrases like "parking," and look at pictures to get an idea of how food is served.

I will also occasionally indulge my guilty pleasure of reading one-star reviews for my favorite places just to see how wrong some people can be.

jnm123 wrote:My gosh, how many times have I been stuck in burgs like Asheville, NC or Fort Wayne, IN and all I see are Pizza Hut, Lone Star Steakhouse and the like?

You'd be surprised how much information can be found on LTH about Fort Wayne, which is a pretty good food town. Very likely there is information on Asheville, but certainly on the Carolinas, especially BBQ.

Regards,
Cathy2

ronnie_suburban wrote:

bweiny wrote: Just so I understand, you're (possibly somewhat facetiously?) describing Yelp reviews/posts as the "bought-off and slanted commentaries"? I'll assume that is what you are saying.

It's well-documented that Yelp has been accused of manipulating their content, how it appears and a number of other factors. There are reports about this from credible sources all over the internet and elsewhere. I think it's entirely reasonable to question the integrity and veracity of what's posted there. Personally, I never use the site. I don't feel I can trust what's posted there in the least.

Everyone is free to their opinion, but I think it's foolish to deny any utility because of articles questioning their methods. As I said, they're a publicly-traded corporation, not some non-profit public service organization. Like every other corp, they will manipulate their output to maximize profitability. I don't put any value in the average star rating, or most reviews. It is fraught with single-visit stream-of-consciousness drivel.

I find it useful for pictures, more often than not of the layout, but food too. Reviews can be humorous (purposefully and unwittingly), and as I was saying, provide info on what consumers value in a first impression, etc. It is not that I trust their conclusion, but I want to know what drives the decisions of people different from me (naturally they're usually ignorant and less intelligent than me so I have to cut them some slack ), but I still want to know what causes them to spend money, and what drives them away.

To accuse them of all being bought off and slanted is as over-expansive a criticism as deriding LTHers for praising the restaurants with chefs or owners that communicate on the forum. Personally, I only really "trust" double-blinded studies, which neither is. LTH may be far more intelligent and informed on average, but not immune from groupthink or other subconscious biases. I enjoy both, but put faith in neither. That's just me though.

Not for nothing, but there's a fair amount of bias in the LTH'ers as well, including myself. There have been lengthy 'discussions' on exactly that subject, but we respect each others' idiosyncracies and really dig the dialogue. The mods only have to step in about once every 3 or 4 times...

For me, it's about a lot more than them being for profit. I have no problem with profit. Yelp concedes that they will change or manipulate where positive or negative reviews are placed based on constituents' willingness to advertise, etc. Pressuring businesses to participate or risk being depicted in a more negative light feels like extortion to me. Offering them more favorable positioning if they do participate is disingenuous at best. While there may occasionally be useful content posted there, I've just decided to to go ahead and shoot the messenger. In fact, I won't even make a reservation at a place that uses Yelp Reservations. It's a complete deal-breaker. It's not about profit. It's about what I view as the less than ethical pursuit of it.

LTH is hardly infallible but at least after reading for a while you know whose opinions you agree with and whose you don't. While the same may sometimes be true at Yelp, the likelihood of an opinion here being legit is much, much higher. We're to Yelp what Mini Hut is to KFC.

=R=

Ok, a much more applicable Yelp thread has kindly been bumped. It can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12769

To get this thread back on track (and my apologies for digressing), I definitely eat at major chains on occasion but they're nothing but guilty pleasures for me. So, I'll eat at the low-end spots (McDonald's, White Castle) but the mid-levels like Applebys and Olive Garden, I avoid entirely unless there is just no other choice. I'd love to see things trend in the indie direction. Sometimes they're awful but at least they're unique.

=R=

bweiny wrote:Regarding what is "Independent" is the most subjective part of all this.

Reinserting the core of my post on this, as Yelp was just a preliminary mention (Goliath may be wearing David's clothes):
It's undeniable that in the age of fast casual, more than one location is part of the growth plan of any restaurant grossing <$50/person. It is the rise of this quasi-independent, with 4-10 establishments under its control that blurs the line for me. The article cites DineAmic (Siena's, Public House), which I hardly consider to be the little guy (though I go to their places occasionally, good loyalty program). Where the "independent" is entering the market with multiple locations in the highest cost locations, where the fuck are we supposed to think their money is coming from, and ours going? It's the same institutional capital behind the national chains, just in a different font. The most nauseating for me is the Furious Spoon+Firefin Poke corp (I just found out, w/ less than zero degree of surprise, that they're backed by the same group). Their rapid expansion into every high density neighborhood fast casual space vacancy is not the product of reinvestment of profits from a successful first location, it's just a step in the plan of a well capitalized corporate decision to open X amount of locations in Y market by Z date. If this is independent, I hardly stand for it.

Hence my feel good dining spending is nearly limited to immigrant founded and run Thai, Vietnamese, taquerias, and Middle Eastern places.

bweiny wrote:

bweiny wrote:Regarding what is "Independent" is the most subjective part of all this.

Reinserting the core of my post on this, as Yelp was just a preliminary mention (Goliath may be wearing David's clothes):
It's undeniable that in the age of fast casual, more than one location is part of the growth plan of any restaurant grossing <$50/person. It is the rise of this quasi-independent, with 4-10 establishments under its control that blurs the line for me. The article cites DineAmic (Siena's, Public House), which I hardly consider to be the little guy (though I go to their places occasionally, good loyalty program). Where the "independent" is entering the market with multiple locations in the highest cost locations, where the fuck are we supposed to think their money is coming from, and ours going? It's the same institutional capital behind the national chains, just in a different font. The most nauseating for me is the Furious Spoon+Firefin Poke corp (I just found out, w/ less than zero degree of surprise, that they're backed by the same group). Their rapid expansion into every high density neighborhood fast casual space vacancy is not the product of reinvestment of profits from a successful first location, it's just a step in the plan of a well capitalized corporate decision to open X amount of locations in Y market by Z date. If this is independent, I hardly stand for it.

Hence my feel good dining spending is nearly limited to immigrant founded and run Thai, Vietnamese, taquerias, and Middle Eastern places.

Aye.

I remember one business trip I took to the Orlando, FL 20+ years ago. Stuck in theme park/resort quicksand, we practically had to beg locals to clue us in to where we could find the "real" Orlando. So many of them sent us to places that were virtually indistinguishable from home . . . malls, food courts, etc. All we wanted was to experience something -- not theme-park related -- that we couldn't experience at home. It didn't seem like such a difficult request and we eventually found some of it on our own but even the struggle to do so still stands out 2 decades later. Most of the locals we talked to couldn't even identify these places. And it's only gotten worse since then. As much as I love certain aspects of globalization, corporate-driven homogeneity is a drag.

=R=

My most frequented restaurant of 2017 has been El Pollo Loco in Tucson. For $4.35 including discount and tax, I either get a two piece roasted chicken dinner OR a chicken taco salad AND a medium beverage. Also included in the deal is access to a fresh salsa bar with about six homemade salsas. That beats nearly any of the independents (although the lunch buffet at Gandhi Cuisine of India at $6.95 is close in quality and value) and any of the fast food chains.

When I cannot get to EPL, I end up at the Fry's Supermarket (Kroger). Again, two pieces of chicken, two sides (usually five or six vegetable selections as well as the standards), and a variety of sauces for $4.95 + tax.

As for Yelp, it is useful in that it provides the names of restaurants, addresses, phone numbers, and a link to the website. Everything else is fairly suspect.

On the other hand, it is high entertainment. I like reading the reviews of rural Arizona and Tucson restaurants by Californians passing through. The typical review of our tiny local Chinese restaurant generally goes:

This restaurant is absolutely awful. I have been to every restaurant in San Francisco's Chinatown and this restaurant does NOT compare!

When we travel, and at home, we strenuously try to avoid national chains (although a regional one isn't out of the question such as Pita Inn or Naf Naf).

On a driving trip with the kids through New England, we stopped at a gas station mini mart and asked the teenage attendant where the best place to eat was, and he said, "Applebee's, at the mall about 2 miles back up the highway." That was a non-starter. When pressed for non-chain, local places, he couldn't come up with anything. This was pre smartphones, and we traveled with copies of Roadfood and Where the Locals Eat (the latter was a compilation of lists from local papers, and certainly wasn't immune to chains). We found a homey diner kind of place, and it was just fine.

Part of it is the new experiences, part of it is wanting to give money to locals that will stay in the local community. But even Mom & Pop's diner could be using Sysco. At least sites such as Yelp will often have the menu, or selections from the menu. If their best fish dish in Miami is salmon, or their dessert list is suspiciously fancy stuff that had to come out of a freezer, it's probably not worth my time.