As time goes by

The thread on all the old familiar places got me reminiscing not just about food but also other places and things long,or recemtly, gone.The sadly before my time Riverview amusement park.Old Chicago amusement park.Polk Bros.What are some of your favorites?

Having gone to high school next door to Riverview, I have many fond memories of Riverview-as-schooling-alternative.

Civility and decorum. There, I've done it - I'm an old fogie.

stevez wrote:Having gone to high school next door to Riverview, I have many fond memories of Riverview-as-schooling-alternative.

Oh...and The Buffalo for Ice Cream.

My nostalgia is always for things I never knew, mostly 20s and 30s. Here's a couple of postcards of places I'd sure like to visit in Chicago:

http://www.lileks.com/postcards/rest/chezpar.html

http://www.lileks.com/postcards/rest/chezpar2.html

http://www.lileks.com/postcards/rest/alleg.html

Mike G wrote:My nostalgia is always for things I never knew, mostly 20s and 30s. Here's a couple of postcards of places I'd sure like to visit in Chicago:

http://www.lileks.com/postcards/rest/chezpar.html

http://www.lileks.com/postcards/rest/chezpar2.html

http://www.lileks.com/postcards/rest/alleg.html

I'm proud to say, I've been to both of those locations...although I was a little to young to really appreciate Chez Paree (or even remember it much).

stevez,any of that misspent youth at the sub place on the corner of Addison and Western (Heroes) or Jeri's Grill at Montrose and Western?

hattyn wrote:stevez,any of that misspent youth at the sub place on the corner of Addison and Western (Heroes) or Jeri's Grill at Montrose and Western?

Hero's was a semi-regular stop for lunch, although the now gone Al's on Western just south of Addison was more my regular hangout for smoking cigarettes, eating a burger and playing pinball. Also Enzo's (also gone) just to the south of Al's was a good place to get an Italian Beef. I didn't frequent Jeri's too much at that time, but I've been known to go there now.

Maybe it's too soon to qualify as nostalgia, but I deply moure the recent passing of Gertie's Ice Cream at 57th and Kedzie.

rocky29@sbcglobal.net wrote:Maybe it's too soon to qualify as nostalgia, but I deply moure the recent passing of Gertie's Ice Cream at 57th and Kedzie.

At least Gertie's lives on at the other Lindy's chilie locations.

Well, I do not miss the dying days of top 40 radio, Hattyn, that is for sure. By the 70's I was doing something that might be called underground radio, and was peripherally aware of how top 40 radio worked, and it was pretty ugly. Too much information, I guess, to enjoy it.

I have participated happily in these threads in the past, so I feared repeating myself, but here goes:

- Golden Ox
- Barney's Market Club
- Irelands
- Pronto
- Corona Cafe
- Comiskey Park
- The cafe next to Union Station that served game, whose name I always forget.
- Meig's Field (though I think Richie did the right thing).
- Garfield Park Conservatory, before they fixed it up. We used to have the entire place to ourselves most of the time (though the fixing up and crowds are good things, but I miss having my own conservatory)

I could think of many more, if I worked at it.

dicksond wrote:- The cafe next to Union Station that served game, whose name I always forget.

I believe it was Cafe Bohemia (then Ranalli's, Red Kerr's, Ranalli's again).

hattyn wrote:I refuse to slap a DNR sticker or toe tag on this.Even if you are not from this area what are some things you miss from your old stomping grounds?

Being an East Coast native, I'd say pizza -- wait! Stop throwing things! It was a joke! Well, not real -- Hey! Quit it! ;)

Mostly, I miss living in a very compact neighborhood outside Boston where two bakeries, two greengrocers, and a butcher were all on a small stretch of road, maybe a quarter-mile in all. (Along with a great, restored second-run theater, an insanely wonderful restaurant/nightclub, a CD store where absolutely nothing was over $10, an original and lovingly restored Pullman diner, and a couple of good dive bars. Alas, the other diner, not a Pullman but a great room with a diverse jukebox and owned by people who set the convenient hours of 10 PM - 4 AM, closed just before I moved here.)

I've brought a couple of Chicagoans there and they instantly understood just how bad a sprawl city Chicago is.

Bob S. wrote:Mostly, I miss living in a very compact neighborhood outside Boston where two bakeries, two greengrocers, and a butcher were all on a small stretch of road, maybe a quarter-mile in all...

I've brought a couple of Chicagoans there and they instantly understood just how bad a sprawl city Chicago is.

Bob:

I know what you mean about compact neighbourhoods and sprawl but in defense of Chicago, I must say that there are plenty of neighbourhoods of the sort you know from back east out here -- but they are wholly or partly or very mixed-up ethnic neighbourhoods, where significant numbers of people don't habitually speak English. All the intensely Mexican neighbourhoods are like that, Albany Park is like that, the Harlem-Belmont Italo-Polish zone is like that, even little old Tri-Taylor fits the bill. I know there are many others and maybe some too that aren't at all 'ethnic'.

On the other hand, the South Loop and more specifically Printers' Row is still completely Anglophone (though I speak as little English as possible) and bereft of many basic amenities...

Antonius

they instantly understood just how bad a sprawl city Chicago is.

Yes, and no. The general thinking among those who study cities is that the cities of the east are dense and compact because of land constraints. They could only grow vertically because there were both natural barriers to sprawl, and a lack of unoccupied land. Manhattan is the ultimate example of this, though Boston certainly has its natural barriers in 2 or three directions, and the last direction was already pretty occupied 200 years ago.

The further west one went, the more wide open land was available, and so the more cities grew horizontally, which is a lot easier and less expensive. On the scale of sprawl, Chicago is very much an intermediate city, not as concentrated as the eastern cities, but much less sprawling than Omaha or Houston. Some of the west coast cities, which started as very sprawling western cities, are now becoming more dense because they are bumping up against natural boundaries and/or lack any adjacent, open space. Of course, they are nothing like Boston or New York, yet.

None of this is meant to deny your point, Bob, just to position Chicago in the spectrum of sprawl, where it sits as a point of transition to the true, sprawling, western cities. And there certainly are neighborhoods where one can find everything in a small area, as Antonius notes, but they are the exception here. Chicago is designed for cars. Shopping, business, and residential are, intentionally, segregated. There are pros and cons to this, I suppose, but the consensus, as embodied in most zoning ordinances, is that it is good. And it is if one ignores the value of a neighborhood as something more than where my bedroom is located.

With the continued expansion of big retailers, I suppose the neighborhood you talk about is gradually becoming an endangered anachronism, as well. The reason it continues to exist in certain "gateway" neighborhoods may be because those are the last remaining places where a high percentage of the residents are without easy access to automobiles, or it could just be because the big retailers do not offer what they want.

A few years ago I did some consulting in Pittsburgh for a Minnesota company I had worked with for a long time. One of my first visits was with a group of manufacturing people from Minnesota who were there to set up the plant. They had not traveled a lot, it seems, and the first comment they made on seeing the little, convoluted streets of downtown Pittsburgh was - "How can they get the snowplows through those tiny streets?" I could not think of a good reply, and the comment stuck with me. The children of midwestern sprawl meet eastern density, and just don't get it. I guess they would say they did not like the city because it was so crowded, Lord knows I hear that from the Farm relatives about Chicago all the time.

All good points, David -- urban planning is another interest of mine. When I say "how bad a sprawl city Chicago is," the real meaning is "how inconvenient it is for me." Since I'm definitely a devotee of density, a little sprawl goes a long way for me.

dicksond wrote:

they instantly understood just how bad a sprawl city Chicago is.

Yes, and no. The general thinking among those who study cities is that the cities of the east are dense and compact because of land constraints. They could only grow vertically because there were both natural barriers to sprawl, and a lack of unoccupied land...

Without doubt there is something -- even much -- to that, but it falls very short of explaining satisfactorily the dimensions and densities of cities in the US. If that point is to be debated, I will perhaps contribute my views on the topic (for what they're worth) but at the moment would prefer to move onto the specific topic of Chicago.

None of this is meant to deny your point, Bob, just to position Chicago in the spectrum of sprawl, where it sits as a point of transition to the true, sprawling, western cities. And there certainly are neighborhoods where one can find everything in a small area, as Antonius notes, but they are the exception here.

There is truth in what you say and yet I feel a need to suggest (substantial) qualification. Perhaps it is correct that by some very legitimate manner of statistical measure, the neighbourhoods whereof I wrote are exceptional and thus in no way typical of the city as a whole. But then I should very much like to know what that measure is -- I suspect that at some level one can legitimately say that a majority of Chicago lives in "sprawl" but I also strongly suspect that the percentage of sprawl-dwellers is actually vastly smaller than one -- from casual observance from certain perspectives -- might think.

Certainly the impression that I have -- and I think Amata might well agree here (though of course she is free to demonstrate me the fool I've always suspected I might be) -- is that in point of fact a very large percentage of Chicago's resident population lives in "dense" and "non-sprawly" neighbourhoods. At least from my perspective, aside from the South Loop where we currently reside, most of the neighbourhoods we visit with regularity are so, not "sprawly" but dense, focussed, and lively, not just at the closing hours of bars but from the morning, when shops open, on. Let me specify: we do not frequent Lincoln Park or Old Town or the West Loop or Streeterville but rather Pilsen and Chinatown and La Villita and Albany Park and Harlem/Belmont and Devon/Western and... well, there are others...

I suppose that there are large sections of Chicago that are not at all "dense" and that many of them are virtually suburbs (Chicago's analogues to Staten Island and most of outer Queens and Hudson and Bergen Counties)... in the city or right next to it and basically working or middle class crowded-suburban neighbourhoods... then there are the areas that are zones where higher economic groups (mixed with others to various degrees) live and which show dense-neighbourhood traits to only limited degrees... But for us, the Chicago we live in, whenever we can escape our admittedly commerically-limited Printers' Row/South Loop, is made up almost solely of dense and vibrant neighbourhoods, filled with little shops and little restaurants, competing and co-operating cheek-by-jowl, and (almost) nary a chain.

To sum up, I think Dicksond is probably pretty much right BUT I would argue that far more of the city is dense -- some parts (like Cermak west of Western) wildly so -- than most people think, especially those who tend to spend their time more in the Loop and on the Northside. Those are great places which, for us, complement the dense and intense neighbourhoods that have given us real cause to love this city.

Antonius

In general, the New Urbanist movement's definition of a neighborhood is a 10-minute walk from one's residence. (I like this definition because it's necessarily very personalized.) Boston-area neighborhoods tend to fit that; Chicago-area neighborhoods don't. A Chicagoan who learns that I live southwest of Foster and Ashland will consider Lutz, west of Western on Montrose, in my neighborhood; I think that's nuts, but I play along.

The further New Urbanist point is that neighborhoods should be organized surrounding centralized services. Sure, I'm willing to go to Edgewater Produce, one neighborhood to my north, and then Paulina Market, two neighborhoods to my south, but if I can't do that with one stop, again, it isn't truly a neighborhood.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention two restaurants I enjoyed a whole lot when I moved here a few years ago that quickly vanished, both early denizens of the Division/Damen restaurant corridor: Twilight and Mais. At Twilight, I though, Kathryn August was doing things comparable to the Elephant Walk in Boston, but much more modestly; Mais was searching Mexican food history from before conquerers came. I haven't much been interested in August's work since Twilight closed, I have to admit, but I would love to learn what happened to the people behind Mais.

Bob S. wrote:In general, the New Urbanist movement's definition of a neighborhood is a 10-minute walk from one's residence. (I like this definition because it's necessarily very personalized.) Boston-area neighborhoods tend to fit that; Chicago-area neighborhoods don't...

I never heard of the New Urbanist movment but what you write sounds reasonable...

My point is just that there are large portions -- and, again, I don't have any statistics to support the claim -- that do seem to work as 'dense (and focussed) neighbourhoods' according to any reasonable definition of the term. Dicksond's suggestion that that in part perhaps has to do with transportation access is a good one and surely part of the picture. But part of it too is the very different sense of community that many groups have brought here and try hard to maintain.

A

The Tokyo Shop in Evanston.I saved up to buy a beautiful blue and white plate for my mother there.Forkosh Memorial Hospital,at least that was the name then, and the Healing Hand made of bumpers.Forkosh was by Lutz's.The hill at Horner Park which seemed huge as a child looks more like a speed bump now.

Sauganash.We used to enjoy the holiday decorations.The last few years the decorations have been sporadic.We took the nephews and it was not worth the trip for them,about 1 1/2 hours drive.We would go to What's Cooking or Jack's afterward.

hattyn wrote:Sauganash.We used to enjoy the holiday decorations.The last few years the decorations have been sporadic.

Hi

My friends who live in Sauganash have always guided me to Touhy AVe, west of the Edens Expressway (I-94), then the first traffic light left. After about a mile of crossing through this neighborhood you find yourself in hot and heavy neighborhood holiday decoration competition.

There is one household where they suggest the Christmas tree in the livingroom is so tall it pierces the 2nd floor bedroom and the roof! There is another household where Santa's reindeer are stuffed deer!

I never found much in Sauganash worth noting, but this neighborhood I describe (Lincolnwood?) has hardly given up decorating.

stevez wrote:

hattyn wrote:stevez,any of that misspent youth at the sub place on the corner of Addison and Western (Heroes) or Jeri's Grill at Montrose and Western?

Hero's was a semi-regular stop for lunch...

Hero's just brings back a lot of lunchtime memories for me. They say that you can never go back, but the bread's not quite as hard as you might remember. Give a roast beef and turkey with lots of mayo a try some time.

My memories of Riverview unfortunately only extend as far as back as the strip malls that took over these last few decades. Lunch from the Riverview Jewel and Dominick's is a reality for many current students these days.

And, ah, who can forget the old Nortown theater. I remember watching the original Batman with Michael Keaton over there. Good times.

--The Snob

Cathy2 wrote:I never found much in Sauganash worth noting, but this neighborhood I describe (Lincolnwood?) has hardly given up decorating.

Yes, that's Lincolnwood. It was certainly brilliantly lit at Xmas 2003.

Cathy2 wrote:

hattyn wrote:Sauganash.We used to enjoy the holiday decorations.The last few years the decorations have been sporadic.

Hi

My friends who live in Sauganash have always guided me to Touhy AVe, west of the Edens Expressway (I-94), then the first traffic light left. After about a mile of crossing through this neighborhood you find yourself in hot and heavy neighborhood holiday decoration competition.

There is one household where they suggest the Christmas tree in the livingroom is so tall it pierces the 2nd floor bedroom and the roof! There is another household where Santa's reindeer are stuffed deer!

I never found much in Sauganash worth noting, but this neighborhood I describe (Lincolnwood?) has hardly given up decorating.

Being a Sauganash/Forest Glen resident I can say that the Xmas lights are not what they were when my uncle used to drive us here every Christmas back in the 50's and early 60's, but the Lincolnwood lights more than make up for it. Drive West on Pratt just past Cicero and you will find yourself in a "Winter Wonderland" of lights.

there's a book out called "lost chicago" you should see what we're missing. also, for me @ least:

the granada

sundays on maxwell st. in the winter w/blues players like hubert sumlin or muddy waters, burning garbage cans for heat, and porkchop sandwiches and/or polish sausages

p j flynn

garfield goose, romberg rabbit

clutch cargo

franks drum shop

the old main library

shoot the shoots @ riverview. "keep your hands inside of the boat"

ashkanaz on morse

fanny's in evanston

the gold star sardine bar. once saw tony bennett play there for 20 people. couldn't fit more in anyway. very small. very cool.