Online Music Services: Pandora

Online Music Services: Pandora

Most days, I’m at my computer. I have a pretty good stereo system in my office, but even with a remote, it’s inconvenient (I have to mute it when I’m on the phone or on those rare occasions when I need to concentrate, the radio station plays distracting commercials or the announcers chatter on pointlessly, plus I get tired of my CDs).

I checked out Sirius, and was ready to subscribe, then I discovered Pandora: http://www.pandora.com/

I’m just starting to understand this service, but what you do is create playlists called “stations.” Pandora provides – FREE – thousands of tunes that are in sync with your tastes. Part of the “music genome project,” Pandora determines what kind of music you like and gives you more of it. Basically, you set up to 100 “radio stations” – currently mine (named after signature artists) are Miles Davis (plays all modern-type jazz), Jimi Hendrix (electric guitar stuff) and Ozomotli (latin-based rockband).

Throughout the day, I listen and if I hear something I really like or really hate, I maximize the Pandora box, which tells me what’s playing, and I “vote”: if I like it, the system seeks similar tunes to play for me; if I hate it, the system knows not to play any more like that kind of thing.

What I like best about this service is that I’m being introduced to music that I enjoy but that I’ve never heard before. Because one can establish up to 100 stations, I’m not worried about getting into a rut. The only possible downside is that it seems most music is of a current vintage (I put “Bach” and “Beethoven” into the system, and it got confused – but I may be doing something wrong; I just started this service yesterday). I figure I’m set for daily listening for a long time to come (of course, if you hear something you really like, you can instantly buy it from Amazon – currently, the adverts are minimal, and all of a banner-type, so the music is not interrupted with talk – for a small fee, you can kill all advertisements).

Just wanted to share. I find this a fascinating and unique music system, and would be interested in experiences you might have had with it…or other, similar services.

Hammond

Another perspective on Pandora (warning: crude). I think the idea of Pandora and similar services is interesting in theory, but I just haven't found them to be at all fulfilling in practice.

I was hoping to get other perspectives, but this quote says a lot about the writer of this article:

"Let's see... According to Pandora, if you like Jackson Browne, you like the Babys' "Midnight Rendezvous". God, they didn't even peak in the same ERA! Maybe if you're a wimpy girl you might see the two as core, but if you've got the Babys, why not REO? Or Journey? They're probably coming. And those acts are a TURN-OFF to the Jackson Browne fan.

Jackson Browne is a singer-songwriter. I'd expect the Pandora station to play Karla Bonoff, Linda Ronstadt, Warren Zevon, maybe even the EAGLES! But I get the GIN BLOSSOMS?? And now, Paul Collins' Beat. Pandora gets props for obscurity, but "Walking Out On Love" has got NOTHING to do with Jackson Browne."

For some reason, I can't see getting too upset that I got Gin Blossoms instead of Jackson Brown -- of course, I'd never enter Jackson Browne in the first place. Pandora is free, not perfect.

I really do appreciate other opinions on this -- thanks.

David "Not running that empty" Hammond

The biggest thing to watch out for is if you have eclectic tastes.
If you say, "I like this rap artist, this metal band and this country group" you'll end up with a mishmash of pap.

Create several different statiosn that suit different moods or circumstances... but that's a bit of a pain.

David,

I see where you're coming from. It's just that if you're extra-picky about music (which I suppose I am) these things almost never work for you. You're relying on someone or something to pick art that you will like. Just because I like something in one genre doesn't mean I'm going like something else that also happens to be in that genre (as defined by the service in question). Some people just do it better, and those are the people I want to listen to. That's where these services fail, IMO. I just don't have the patience to suffer through thirty songs to hear one I like and haven't heard before.

(And yes, Bob Lefsetz is something of a wacko, but I find him to be a relatively informed and entertaining wacko!)

Happy listening,
Kristen

JoelF wrote:Create several different statiosn that suit different moods or circumstances... but that's a bit of a pain.

I'm starting to feel like I'm championing Pandora, but I must say, selecting tunes to add to a station is as effortless as clicking a button. I added a few more stations this morning, I switch between them periodically, liking about 90% of what I'm hearing, voting only now and again. I've heard a lot of music by artists who were previously unknown to me, I'm getting a music education, I'm being entertained while I work, and it's free.

David "Pain is relative" Hammond

Pandora gets considerably better as you spend more time telling it whether you like or dislike a song. It's like a learning spam filter -- unless you smack it on the nose a few times to retrain it, it'll keep sending crap through.

And, of course, they're missing a lot of good stuff.

If you ever can't understand why Pandora recommended something for you, ask it. It once told me it recommended song X because it shared "misogynistic lyrics" with song Y.

gleam wrote:And, of course, they're missing a lot of good stuff.

Undoubtedly, and not to get all ontological on you, but you're talking about the good stuff you know about -- what I like about Pandora is that it introduces me to stuff I don't know about.

Good to hear from you Ed; I figured you'd chime in on a topic like this.

Hammond

Hammond,

Not on target, but I've been happily using MusicMatch for years. It's subscription, streams CD quality music, has Artist/Album/Track on Demand, bunch of Radio stations, including programmable options, and works very well on my computer.

For a few bucks a month, paid yearly, I can listen to pretty much whatever I want, including my twice weekly fix of Pressed Rat and Warthog by the Cream, with no adverts.

Enjoy,
Gary

Regarding classical music, from the FAQ:

The Music Genome Project doesn't contain any classical music at this time. We're still trying to figure out how to tackle that animal... In the meantime, there are some great web sites out there that cater to the classical audience, for example check out KUAT-fm a great 128Kbps classical streaming station.

Thanks for posting on this, David, I'm eager to get home and take a look. It sounds like it probably works on technology similar to the recommendation software on Netflix or Amazon. I've not found it incredibly useful with movies, since the universe of content is much smaller, but I like experimenting on Amazon with "people who bought X also bought Y". As you say, it sounds like an easy way to get introduced to things you don't know about.

One of my favorite online music sources is Radio Paradise. http://www.radioparadise.com. It's listener supported, meaning you can donate if you want to, so there are no commercials. They guy who runs it is a former Bay Area radio program director and he has a very eclectic taste in music. He'll play anything from world music to Hendrix...and he does a very good job of "mood shifting". I've discovered some really good and new (to me) artists listening to that station.

David Hammond wrote:

JoelF wrote:Create several different statiosn that suit different moods or circumstances... but that's a bit of a pain.

...selecting tunes to add to a station is as effortless as clicking a button. I added a few more stations this morning, I switch between them periodically, liking about 90% of what I'm hearing, voting only now and again....

It's not the mechanism of adding songs to stations, it's the mental process of having several stations and switching between them. What it needs is sort of a meta-jukebox that will give me 60% station A, 30% station B, and surprise me with a little C and D every once in a while. If you put it all in one station, you get Backstreet Boys every time.

It's also a little sensitive to topics such as humor: I once added a Barenaked Ladies song, and the next thing up was "Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weenie Yellow Polka Dot Bikini"

Aaron Deacon wrote:Thanks for posting on this, David, I'm eager to get home and take a look. It sounds like it probably works on technology similar to the recommendation software on Netflix or Amazon. I've not found it incredibly useful with movies, since the universe of content is much smaller, but I like experimenting on Amazon with "people who bought X also bought Y". As you say, it sounds like an easy way to get introduced to things you don't know about.

Aaron, when I mentioned this service to The Wife, she also referenced the "If you liked this, then you'll like that" feature on Amazon and NetFlix, which I have also found of limited use. The difference, as you say, is that the music choices are vast, and unlike a book or movie, it's not a huge commitment to listen to a tune you've never heard before...and which, who knows, you might like.

David "Desperately Seeking New Experiences" Hammond

JoelF wrote:It's not the mechanism of adding songs to stations, it's the mental process of having several stations and switching between them.

Isn't that what you do with a radio station?

JoelF wrote:It's also a little sensitive to topics such as humor: I once added a Barenaked Ladies song, and the next thing up was "Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weenie Yellow Polka Dot Bikini"

See, I'd love to hear that song again, and because I also like BNL, that'd be a perfect match for me.

You remember who did "Purple People Eater" or "Witchdoctor? Cuz I'd like to hear more like that, even though I pretty much know all those songs by heart.

David "Bring it On" Hammond

As a side note, some acquaintances do server/networking work for Pandora. Here is a (very) large photo of some of their offices.

This doesn't really contribute anything to the discussion, I just think the walls completely covered in CD cases is an interesting sight.

I'll fess up: On my one try, Pandora seemed really, really stupid to me. Since anytime I go to a site like that I have to show off indie cred, of course, at Pandora I requested Terry Allen, a Santa Fe-based singer-songwriter I've long admired. And I really appreciated how it immediately started playing a cut off his last album. But then it decided that since I liked Allen, I must like Clint Black and Garth Brooks. And nothing against the folks who do -- country music was often heard in my childhood home -- but I don't, so I clicked no, no, and so it played another Terry Allen cut. Fine; then it went back to Clint. No again. And at that point it stopped and said it had no idea what I'd want to listen to.

That's when I realized that while I really like to hear new music and don't have a lot of sources for it, it was just going to continue to piss me off, and while my iTunes library wouldn't tip me off to new stuff I might like, it wasn't in any position to piss me off either. Pandora will, I'm sure, succeed wonderfully without me.

Bob S. wrote:... I requested Terry Allen, a Santa Fe-based singer-songwriter I've long admired. And I really appreciated how it immediately started playing a cut off his last album. But then it decided that since I liked Allen, I must like Clint Black and Garth Brooks. And nothing against the folks who do -- country music was often heard in my childhood home -- but I don't, so I clicked no, no, and so it played another Terry Allen cut. Fine; then it went back to Clint. No again. And at that point it stopped and said it had no idea what I'd want to listen to.

Thanks for the tip: I just created a Terry Allen station. Of the first 10 that came up, 2 were for Terry Allen, 1 was for Clint Black, and the rest were guys I'd never heard of...but I'm willing to believe they might be worth a listen.

David "I'll listen to anything" Hammond

David Hammond wrote:Thanks for the tip: I just created a Terry Allen station. Of the first 10 that came up, 2 were for Terry Allen, 1 was for Clint Black, and the rest were guys I'd never heard of...but I'm willing to believe they might be worth a listen.

Yeah, see, that's where I'm excited about this thing...to listen to samples of people you hear about in passing that could be interesting but aren't immediately accessible.

I remember 7-8 years ago hearing a host on some sportstalk radio station talk about James McMurtry (a Texas songwriter, son of Larry) quite a bit. Sportstalk radio hosts aren't a usual source of music tips for me, but there was something that struck me about this guy that he might be worthwhile. I didn't know anyone who listened to James McMurtry and wasn't motivated enough to buy the CD, so the idea just sat with me for a few years.

With the advent of file sharing, I looked up McMurtry and downloaded some of his stuff, and would you know it, it's pretty damn good. Pandora seems like it could fill a similar niche, not so much for me to find other music that's similar to what I like, but, when I hear about something I'm unfamiliar with, to let me know if I like stuff like that. Or something.

Aaron Deacon wrote:Pandora seems like it could fill a similar niche, not so much for me to find other music that's similar to what I like, but, when I hear about something I'm unfamiliar with, to let me know if I like stuff like that. Or something.

Aaron, I'll be very interested in your opinion.

What I've come to dig is when I'm sitting working at my computer, with Pandora in the background, and I hear a song I've heard a hundred times, and I maximize Pandora to get the title...I like that a lot. It's educational entertainment for me. Now I know that the song I've heard on and off for years is "Stella by Starlight." A simple pleasure. Nothing that will change the world, but I like having the knowledge...

Hammond

It sounds like maybe they did a little research and fleshed out some options for the Terry Allen fans in the world. (To quote David Cross' character, Tobias, in "Arrested Development": "There are dozens of us. Dozens!") But really, it's an interface complaint: Why not pop up a little box asking, "Well, we're dry. Whom would you suggest?" (And for Allen I would likely have suggested, among others, McMurtry, who's playing Martyr's quite soon BTW.)

Actually, my own solution was to invest in a couple of Roku's Soundbridge wireless music players. They have full access to my iTunes library (they also work with WMP-format libraries) and, even when the computer's off, they can play a pretty large collection of Internet radio stations. Some stations even display track info. My only complaint is that multiple units can't synchronize, although it's actually a server limitation. Anyway, while it doesn't exactly solve the problem you're using Pandora for, it may be worth a look if Internet radio's an interest.

I've been using Pandora for about three months now. The choices that it makes for you arec somewhat astounding. for instance, my Van Morrison station plays a mix of Van, Dave Matthews, way too much Rod Stewart, and Third Eye Blind. I protested the Rod Stewart stuff and it removed it, adding, of all things some Wilco and Billy Bragg from the Mermaid Avenue II CD. I much prefer that-but, I don't see the correlation to Van Morrison.

YourPalWill wrote:I've been using Pandora for about three months now. The choices that it makes for you arec somewhat astounding. for instance, my Van Morrison station plays a mix of Van, Dave Matthews, way too much Rod Stewart, and Third Eye Blind. I protested the Rod Stewart stuff and it removed it, adding, of all things some Wilco and Billy Bragg from the Mermaid Avenue II CD. I much prefer that-but, I don't see the correlation to Van Morrison.

Van Morrison and Rod Stewart are both living British male singers -- I guess that's the connection.

Tonight, I was in the mood for some Italian tunes, so I started an Eros Ramazzotti station (that's right: lve, and the name of my favorite btters -- it's my theme, lately). Well, the first tune was by Eros, and the next was by an Italian, but the next five were by Spanish singers. That, I think, is an out-and-out error (some knucklehead in programming mistook Spanish for Italian or vice versa).

Still, I gotta say, I'm supremely happy with my Miles Davis station -- I must have listened to it for four hours or more today. Just love it (though, I'm sure some jazz aficionado would be offended that they played Gil Evans or Chet Baker or some other musician who isn't exactly like Miles...but I can't notice stuff like that).

This song popped up in my REM influence station tonight (along with Hootie and the Blowfish ) . I found it appropriate for LTH. I've had the feeling expressed in the first line about Gary many times (except, of course, that there is no Chili Plate or Tony's Chili Chicken along side to beef up that meager meal for two):

Renee is Crying
Artist: Luna

Lyrics

Salt and Pepper Squid
Singapore noodles
I could look at your face
For oodles and oodles

In Bamboo Chairs
We�ll sip through straws
As Scott goes up
Renee is crying

Once we have Dreams
Now we have schemes
My blood is bleeding
Oh can�t you hear

Love made of Silver
Love made of Gold
Am I in the right place?
Is my timing right?

In Bamboo Chairs
We�ll sip through Straws
As Scott Goes up
Renee is crying

Once we have Dreams
Now we have schemes
My blood is bleeding
Oh can�t you hear

What I really want want to know regarding Pandora, et.al, is, can you download the tunes you like to c.d.?

You have the option to buy them from itunes or amazon. Just click on the CD cover. The system will direct you the rest of the way.

Another excellent way to use Pandora: to create a mood.

I'm working on a article about Mexican food right now, and I find it very helpful to have Pandora tuned to my "Los Tigres Del Norte" channel -- the rock-mariachi sounds put me in the mood (hell, I pretty much feel like I'm sitting at La Quebrada rather than my desk -- waiting for someone to drop a basket of chips next to my keyboard).

Hammond

You might also want to check out last.fm, which is a somewhat similar idea to pandora, but implemented a completely different way. With last.fm, you download a plugin for your computer's audio player, which keeps track of the songs you listen to and submits them to last.fm. After you've listened to a certain number of tracks, it will find 'neighbors', people who have similar tastes in artists...and then creates a radio station based on what your neighbors are listening to. Therefore the songs and artists you're introduced to are influenced other people who have (theoretically) similar tastes, and not by a computer like pandora...

Of course, I haven't even used the radio feature yet, so I don't know how well it works. I've been busy trying to get my track submittal #'s up so I have quality neighbors. My problem was that I listen to music much more via my ipod than directly on my computer. Thankfully, someone wrote a program that can submit the tracks you're played on the ipod and I've been happily submitting for the past few weeks.

To be fair, in both cases the matching is done by computer. With Pandora, though, it's human employees of the company who determine if artists or songs are alike, and with last.fm, it's your friends and an algorithm.

It's also not a fair comparison, because last.fm requires a fairly large data set (300 songs you've listened to) before it starts giving you recommendations.

You all may be interested in PandoraFM, a Pandora/last.fm mashup. Anything you listen to in Pandora gets submitted to last.fm.

Dave:

Sheb Wooley is the original recording artist of Purple People Eater. David Seville is the original recording artist of The Witch Doctor. Each one has been re-recorded several times.

Dee

dees_1 wrote:Dave:

Sheb Wooley is the original recording artist of Purple People Eater. David Seville is the original recording artist of The Witch Doctor. Each one has been re-recorded several times.

Dee

Dee, thanks.

This morning, I tried to start a Purple People Eater station, but the system hung up, and the only actual tune suggested was "The Purple People Eater Meets The Witchdoctor," by The Big Bopper (Hey Bayyybeeee!), which I'm assuming was a followup to "Chantilly Lace." I'll try to set up a Sheb Wooley station right now -- be interesting to see what comes up.

Dave Seville? Of Alvin and the Chipmunks? I did not know that.

David