Chowhound Exodus?

I think this forum is great, but don't really understand the mass exodus from chowhound.

It seems to me that when chowhound was the forum of choice for the dedicated chitown chowhounds, there was a more diverse and active discussion of chicago chow. This site is not as busy, dousn't have as many posters, and seems to suffer a bit from a clubhouse (ie inbread) mentality.

While I will admit that there were a greater number of mundane posts on chowhound, there were also consistently new opinions, new perspectives, new talents, and a greater diversity of contribution. It wasn't all noise it was a lot of signal too.

Why the exodus? It seems a bit like the beatles breaking up and launching 4 seperate mediocre solo careers, as opposed to one inspired collaboration.

Hey Ponzu,

I would imagine that there are many reasons for people being here rather than Chowhound. I actually post in both locations, but I come here and post here more frequently because most of my food friends are here and, frankly, because many posts on Chowhound are questions on the order of "where can I find the best X in Chicago?" Not that such questions are unimportant; I'm just no longer charmed by the prospect of hearing/answering them.

Plus, LTH has emoticons

Good to hear from you again,

Hammond

ponzu wrote:I think this forum is great, but don't really understand the mass exodus from chowhound..

Ponzu,

The mass exodus, if one can call a few people leaving mass, was precipitated by Jim Leff. Jim took exception to a statement or two on the LTH Listserv and, Bob's yer Uncle, LTHForum.

Remember LTHForum is less than 8-weeks old, 360+ registered members and over 6000 posts in that amount of time is quite an accomplishment.

I am all for diversity of opinion and hope, as LTHForum grows, the clubhouse mentality you perceive is no more. Actually, I don't agree with "clubhouse mentality," but, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Best way to 'break the mold' is post-post-post.

Looking forward to meeting you at Thai Aree on Wednesday.

Enjoy,
Gary

Well the reasons I am posting to both forums, but have been finding myself getting more out of LTHforum than Chowhounds of late are:

- LTHforum's software allows me to monitor discussions I contribute to, which is a very nice feature to encourage discussions (and ensuring I don't miss replies)

- LTHforum's sorting of messages with new replies allows me to monitor it more quickly than I have been able to with Chowhound, thus allowing me to catch more of what gets posted that might be of interest.

- When I have posted the same message to both forums I have gotten only a handful of replies on chowhound (of late) but dozens of responses on LTHforum

- many of the people whose writings I enjoyed on Chowhound now seem to be at the very least posting to LTHforum first and/or reserving their long form writing for here.

- I really appreciate being able to edit my posts, allowing me to correct errors such as posting the wrong name (or misspelling something, getting hours incorrect etc)

Shannon

[

quote]I don't agree with “clubhouse mentality,” /

I struggled with this post because it sounds harsher than intended. By "clubhouse mentality," I didn't mean to re-hash another posters charges of a "cool kids club," as I never have agreed with that charge.
Rather my concern was that chowhound, especially with all the recent pub (and the national rep), had the ability to catch new and varied posters which richened the discussion.

This forum seems to be comprised of those who have already gone through the cycle of exhilaration and boredome with the chowhound format. But what of the people who are discovering chowhound now? It seems to me, that without the serious posters like renee g, g wiv, VI, zim, etc. contributing anymore, they will skip right to boredom and never even discover this site.[/quote]

Three responses:

1. I'm as guilty of the inbred thing as anybody but I don't know how to fix a certain level of self-referentiality (except by artificially refusing to mention who I had lunch with and why I came to order certain things). The only thing I can see to do, which we are doing, is have lots of events and invite everybody, so everybody's in the "in crowd!"

2. When the same query has been posted on Chowhound and LTH, sometimes there's been more discussion here, sometimes there, sometimes the response here has been smaller but offered more interesting and unusual responses. As Gary says, in the context of how short a time the site's been active, that's pretty darn good-- actually it's funny if you go back and look at the earliest Chowhound Chicago board, it took something like four or five years to build up to this level of traffic.

3. All Things Must Pass is better than The White Album. Ram is quite good too, and even Ringo is enjoyable.

P.S. Just saw your followup so I'll respond to that too: we have some PR efforts in the works to help draw entirely new food-interested folks here, not merely transplant a community from one site to another. Surely the surface has barely been scratched by either site (or eGullet, chicago.eats, etc.) and there are many hundreds of folks out there pursuing their obsession in private, little knowing that, as Doug K once called it, their "tribe" exists waiting for them. (I mean, it's not like Chowhound had billboards all over town, not that we will either....)

ponzu wrote:Why the exodus?

I can't speak for everyone in a mass exodus, or if there really is one; I don't even have a bone to pick with Jim Leff. But I do know this software is much better and makes it easier for me to contribute and follow topics. I'm also happy to find a critical mass of people who read and respond to posts with useful information.

While I'm disappointed it's not part of a larger, national site where there are like-minded people across the country to share chow tips, the extensive focus on Chicago chow makes it worth it for me.

It's nice to see you over here Ponzu. Now I'm waiting for Paul Mollica! I too continue to read both sites, and sometimes post on CH--usually to link to an earlier discussion of the same topic. But, as others have pointed out, the software makes a huge difference. I love being able to post multiple links. I love seeing the pages of photos others have posted. And, in the future, I'm confident I'm going to love a stable search function.

I'm a relative newbie to both boards so maybe I can be objective (maybe not )

It just amazes me that CH continues to use that software format. There are tons of very cheap BBS programs out there and every one of them is better than what they are using now. I personally have no problems with the people there but that's probably because I wasn't around for the big fight.

And I have to disagree with the clubhouse mentality charge regarding LTH. All boards suffer from this to some extent, but I don't feel it's intrusive here. Back when planning was going on for the most recent Beefathon I posted that I would not be able to make it because I was unemployed and couldn't afford it. I had more than one person send me private messages offering to pay my way. While I didn't take anybody up on the offer I think this speaks well about the openness of LTH.

Why the exodus? It seems a bit like the beatles breaking up and launching 4 seperate mediocre solo careers, as opposed to one inspired collaboration.

You really know how to flatter a girl and renew relations on the right foot. I assume you followed my breadcrumbs post on the LTH dinner options on CH Saturday.

Chowhound Chicago Board was a wonderful gathering place and how many of us came to know each other. There were also flaws. You couldn't announce local events of interest without the likelihood of being nipped. In this new software, you can make an announcement, when it fades out then later come back to remove it. So now it is not unusual to hear of a good sale somewhere, which was impossible on CH.

You also couldn't plan get togethers because CH was always pleading preservation of their bandwidth. Now someone suggests something and because of the flurry of ideas, a better event occurs than originally planned because of the ideas generated. Impossible on CH.

This site is not as busy, dousn't have as many posters, and seems to suffer a bit from a clubhouse (ie inbread) mentality

There you go again: flatter, flatter, flatter.

On CH, people tended to follow certain boards and ignore everything else. I personally followed General, Chicago, Midwest, International, Site and Not About Food ... and still do but not as religiously. I also followed the CH hot posts at a glance pick up interesting information. Many just followed Chicago board. So if I had a Chicago-centric recipe related question, I could only hope someone from Chicago might read the general board and advise. Now Food and Shopping is my favored playground on LTH, especially as I know who is providing the information and their reliability.

Not all boards on CH have stellar posters. Some here planned trips to the South, LA and such, then returned with mediocre results. They asked their friends via listserv and received very, very solid information. Now that the playground is more compact and rich with people whose information has a track record, what recommendations evolves can be banked on.

Of course, everyone is free to gather information where they may, so CH can be useful resource as well.

Quote our soon to be posted posting guidelines:

If nothing else, please remember before you respond to someone that there's a good chance you'll actually MEET that person eventually. So play nice.

Oh, and I've already printed the seating charts for Thai Aree which put Ponzu and Cathy right next to each other...

It is my hope that in 6-months, if there's another LTHForum/chowhound thread, not one person mentions LTHForum's software, only LTHForum's interesting and diverse content.

Enjoy,
Gary

Ponzu and Cathy right next to each other...

Alexi may genuinely enjoy my company. If it is not food, then we can talk about Central Europe, Russia and beyond. Or maybe I can get some free medical advice! I am a perfectly good conversation generator.

See you Wednesday!

one word: software

I'm not a fan of the software that runs CH. Mildly put, it's not user-friendly in the least, and I tired of CH's upgrade promises long ago.

It also doesn't hurt that the moderators here seem more even-tempered and flexible. I still check CH for the other cities, but the top Chicago chow content is undoubtedly here.

I just wanted to chime in quick agreement with the general consensus:

The "exodus" was hardly "mass" and it was initiated by the Pharoah of CH, not by the exiting Israelites.

I still read CH and often respond to posts or discussions, but I generally save initiating topics for LTH because, in a clubhouse-y way, I have a comfrotable sense of who is responding and where theyr'e coming from, while there is still a large enough posting community to offer some real diversity of outlook. And one assumes that will only continue to expand.

The great thing for me (I don't actually care about the software because I'm sucha Luddite that I don't exploit the various features beyond typing and then submitting) is that I no longer have any emotional investment in what the mods or Leff choose to delete. I read what's there, and then I come here.

I think it has all worked out for the best.

I would like to offer my two cents, most of which may echo what has already been said.

I do not know anyone on this board personally and would certainly not consider myself witness to any "clubhouse mentality". My participation in this board has always been welcomed warmly and I have come to know quite a few people through our digital conversations.

I used to frequent CH (I still post there from time to time) and have made the switch to LTH for multiple reasons:

1) The software, as mentioned. Chowhound's devotion to their board style is ludicrous.

2) The activity and conversation. I don't agree that this site is not busy. In fact, I would venture that it is busier than Chowhound-Chicago these days. The conversations are lively and interesting and moving all day long.

3) The diversity (as GWiv mentioned). I find the conversations here much more diverse, especially since Chowhound moderates their boards down to the "where do i go for <blank>" type-threads. Which leads me to....

4) The moderation. Chowhound's rigid moderation policy hampers the diversity of conversation. Just today a post of mine was removed for a reason I cannot begin to comprehend. They prune the board down to the barest of conversation types: "Where do I go for x?" "Who has the best y?" These are fine questions, but there's a lot more to talk about. I can think of many interesting LTH threads that would have never seen the light of day on Chowhound.

Thanks again to all of the moderators involved in creating this site.

eatchicago wrote: I can think of many interesting LTH threads that would have never seen the light of day on Chowhound.

Software schmoftware. I think that about sums it up. The people that spearheaded the formation of LTH differ with the management of Chowhound over what is the nature and extent of Internet based food discussion. Yet, it makes nothing right or wrong. Jim Leff and Chowhound management like their form of food content. Me, Gary, Mike and the others who got LTH going like our form.

Of course the software helps too...

Rob

I still post on Chowhound but find myself spending more and more time here.

First of all, I like the way people here write. I mean, would the powers that be at the "other" board let eatchicago have his say about his father-in-law? The individual personality just seems to come through in the post. I also agree with Cathy that it's nice when you're discussing non-restaurant type topics that you know that you're on a board with other Chicagoans.

I, too, have gotten tired of "where can I get this" and "who has the best that". There have been a few posts lately where I have been tempted to respond "get out the Yellow Pages".

Chowhound is a wonderful place that introduced me to a great group of very knowledgable people, taught me a lot about food, and made me more conscious of what I know and what I like.

But times change and we move on. I had numerous small issues with Chowhound (software, wildly varying quality of postings on different boards, Laser Focus which was sometime restrictive), that caused me to think there was a real chance to "do it better" here. So I decided to give it a shot when GWIV called me up.

I came here figuring it would quietly expire due to lack of interest after a few months and we would all return to Chowhound, which seemed okay. As is so often the case, I was completely wrong.

Having said that, as a moderator the goal here is to get as many people to post as much as they want to so long as it generally relates to what we are about and is civil. We want more people, differing opinions, and different levels of knowledge.

We do not want to be a clique of self-congratulatory types who make others feel unwanted. It takes time to build a mass like CH, but I am amazed at where we are.

As to the lack of a focus outside Chicago, I thought I might miss that too, Alexi. But I have found there to be as much or more knowledge about other places as I found on most of the other CH boards when traveling. The best example is when I went to Oaxaca a while back and asked for recommendations, and got a six page missive with great details from RST (who I miss, BTW).

Simon wrote:one word: software

I still check CH for the other cities, but the top Chicago chow content is undoubtedly here.

I have attempted to follow the CH Southwest board for the past few months in hopes of getting some good tips for an upcoming trip to Las Vegas. Most of the time, posters gush about Mon Ami Gabi and the typos and vague opinions are everywhere. I gave up on it a while ago.

CH Chicago seems to have slowed to a crawl, and I agree with the comments of others that posts have dwindled to "where is the best this or that."

I like LTH not just for the software but also because I want the opinions of the other members of this board on topics other than food. The most responses I ever got to a post was on the Non-Food Chat!

Oh yeah, and the Emoticons rule.

I agree with many of the comments made by others hereabove: I have no problem with CH and am happy to accept it as it is, but that acceptance is made easier by the existence of this venue, where many food-related discussions are allowed which would likely not be deemed appropriate by CH. Along those lines, I would add that there is quite a bit of very entertaining -- as well as enlightening -- writing on LTH that regularly makes the site a joy to visit.

A specific virtue of LTH that has hitherto not been mentioned in this thread is the editing that is done simply by the fact that one must register to contribute. Over the six or seven months I've been visiting CH, I have seen a depressingly high number of angry, viscious, and obscene attacks at serious posters made anonymously (and credit goes to the CH moderators for generally removing them with alacrity). I was the target of only a couple but the irritation such things cause was enough to make me hesitant to write about certain topics on CH, just in order to avoid the bother.

Perhaps registration inhibits some from joining in at all but the open door for the sick and the insane is a high price to pay for the occasional peep from the timorous church mouse. Here on LTH, such anonymous nastiness as appears now and again on CH is so far wholly absent and presumably can't easily occur.

Antonius

Vital Information wrote:

eatchicago wrote: I can think of many interesting LTH threads that would have never seen the light of day on Chowhound.

Software schmoftware. I think that about sums it up. The people that spearheaded the formation of LTH differ with the management of Chowhound over what is the nature and extent of Internet based food discussion.

Of course the software helps too...

Rob

Rob,

I would argue that the quality of discussion on this site is partially due to the manner of presentation. The search features, the organization of posts and the ease in scanning new topics all contribute to what I believe to be a very fine forum. The same quality writers were contributing on CH, but it was (and is) nearly impossible to make head or tails of the content there, especially if you have to spend a few days *gasp* offline. I found so many discussions cut off mid-stream simply because they started to drift too far down the first page. That problem is simply and elegantly side-stepped here.

Of course the high quality moderation helps too...

Simon

Yeah, but it was a lot of asking general questions and very little posting of interesting information, reviews, finds etc. I see a huge decline in people actually bothering to write-up experiences for the benefit of the community, and a large upswing in people who just want someone else's 10-Best list for everything.

I still go there, but I rarely learn anything. Here, I learn constantly - and not just places to go, but what to buy, where, how to prepare, alternatives on how to prepare, and on and on.

(And not a single open-ended thread about, "What's your favorite chow sit-com episode?")

I still read Chowhound. For one thing, we eat in restaurants much more when traveling than we do here in Chicago. We go back to Hawaii once or twice a year and I've found in the past that that the "Elsewhere in America" board has been very useful for updates. The problem with Chowhound, for me, is mostly with the software. It's just too easy to miss something.

eatchicago wrote:1) The software, as mentioned. Chowhound's devotion to their board style is ludicrous.

Well that's just plain wrong. Nobody would argue that CH's software is better-- this software is plainly better. But I can't see where you see any evidence of "Chowhound's devotion to their board style". Any time it comes up on their Site Talk board, the mods sigh and agree that the software is crappy. There's a thread going on there right now actually, and the posts clearly indicate that they know the software is a problem but for whatever reason haven't gotten a new package going.

Unless I am missing your point altogether and you mean something different by "board style"?

Yes, the CH mods that reply on the topic do sigh a lot about their software - but they've been doing that forever. They talk about an attempt to custom-write, at great time and expense, a replacement for the current offering that they eventually had to abandon. They never answer the question, though, as to why they don't use one of the many existing alternative offerings instead. LTH is using phpBB, one of the standards out there, and there are a number of other popular options available that are used for very high volume sites all over. CH, when asked why they can't use any of these, never really gives good answers IMO. They then compound that, again IMO, by telling users that their bandwidth costs are totally out of hand and they need $$ (and NOT donations, by their own terms) to continue . . . when the very nature of their software is directly causing wasted bandwidth by regurgitating the complete header list to each surfing client on every "back" click of the browser. So it's alright to admit that they are aware that their software sucks (it's OK, I'm in IT and that's a valid technical term) but to do so and continue to wear blinders to the existence of options (or deny that those options could suffice) AND cry poor about the bandwidth costs is, really, a uniquely strange kind of "devotion".

Is it "devotion to their board style"? Perhaps not. But the continued use of a clearly flawed piece of software when numerous options exist and a failure to respond to basic questions about why is indeed curious . . . and incredibly frustrating.

At the risk of diverging the topic from the title, I wonder about the costs of LTH and what options are available for us to support it. While phpBB is open source, certainly the .com registry and the ongoing bandwidth represent real $$ out of pocket. I would gladly contribute some of my $$ to assist in supporting the costs of this site and would welcome (perhaps in a new topic) information on how to do so. In any case, I learned much about Chicago food options from CH and admit "it ain't what it used to be" but all things 'net related are constantly in flux. CH was stagnating (and stifling) and the LTH founders basically responded to a challenge of "if you can do better, then go do it" . . . and did (again, IMO).

Whoa, just realized I somehow have a soapbox under my feet. I now climb down off it and return it to it's normal resting place in the cupboard underneath the sink.

Well, it's not my place to get too specific about finances but suffice it to say that thanks to the efficiency of phpbb's design and such things, at this time we just aren't incurring anywhere remotely near the kinds of costs that seem to cause panics of emergency fundraising at other sites. (As busy as the site seems, when it's just text-based posts-- the photos aren't hosted by LTHForum-- and a few dozen people maximum using the site at a time, the hosting and bandwidth usage is very, very small in real terms. For instance, that trailer I posted a while back for the next Gorilla Gourmet video was itself more than twice as large as our entire archive of 6000 text posts so far.)

So feel free to buy GWiv a drink at the next event, but otherwise, it's not an issue right now.

Joy's Sis wrote:

eatchicago wrote:1) The software, as mentioned. Chowhound's devotion to their board style is ludicrous.

Well that's just plain wrong. Nobody would argue that CH's software is better-- this software is plainly better. But I can't see where you see any evidence of "Chowhound's devotion to their board style".

The evidence that I speak of is is in the fact that they haven't done anything about it. They've been talking about changing it for a long time now. I have never once seen any tests, predicted dates for a change, or anything else of the sort. (Please correct me if I have missed this). Installing new BB software and testing it out is not a difficult matter.

(Disclosure: I am a software engineer, specializing in web applications).

I have never once seen any tests, predicted dates for a change, or anything else of the sort.

I know Vital Information/Rob and I were invited to beta test some software by Chowhounds well over a year ago. They wanted us to actively use it and find flaws. I had the impression Rob did more exploring of the beta software than I did. I just sort of peeked around and moved on ... similarly to what I did last February when Gary set up this board just for fun. I guess taking software out for aimless test drives isn't my deep interest.

I will defer to Rob to confirm whether or not the software is similar to what we are using now.

One comment, as a moderator.

This site is not anti-chowhound. It is an alternative or even a complement to Chowhound, and we all agree there are good things about Chowhound, and times when most of us will continue to use it. If this thread becomes CH-bashing, or a repetitive argument about whether CH is good or bad, some moderation will occur. I do not say this because there are any problems with the posts so far, but just in case it gets a little more heated or argumentative, as I know many of us have strong feelings about this.

And personally:

As to the quality of the CH Chicago Board - when the split happened Leff stated that the Board would decline and then rebuild over time. I think he is absolutely correct, and one can see that process happening. As KMAN said

all things 'net related are constantly in flux

. I have given up predictons, and will only say I find LTH more useful and enjoyable today. Who knows how that will change over time?